Doping Thread

[Orange Agent]

The usual conspiracy theory BS.

Meanwhile, back in the real world:

"a 2011 review of 26 studies on the effects of inhaled beta-2 agonists found that the medications did not improve “endurance, strength or sprint performance in healthy athletes.” In another study published in 2011, Belgian researchers wrote that taking salbutamol “does not affect exercise capacity in normal subjects.”"

Show me a research trial that establishes that there is any performance benefit from using a Ventolin inhaler.

On the other hand, "performance-hindering side effects include dizziness, headaches, and nausea".

http://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/jappl.2000.89.2.430

Increased Vo2 would be my choice as to why it is so popular.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8236068

 

[PoopingHindi]

Ullisi got busted with a lower reading than Froome for the exact same thing and I think copped a year. The precedent is set, now over to the UCI.



Watch him get off.

amount allowed by WADA - 1000 ng/ml

Alessandro Petacchi - 1360 ng/ml, 12 month ban
Diego Ulissi - 1900 ng/ml, 9 month ban
Chris Froome: 2000 ng/ml - ???

 

[Orange Agent]

amount allowed by WADA - 1000 ng/ml

Alessandro Petacchi - 1360 ng/ml, 12 month ban
Diego Ulissi - 1900 ng/ml, 9 month ban
Chris Froome: 2000 ng/ml - ???

Its apparently 20-30 puffs to get to Froome's reading.

 

[PoopingHindi]

found this on another forum posted by someone claiming to be a physician.

There is a plateau effect for inhaled salbutamol and it does little if you don't have asthma, exercise-induced or otherwise.

Oral salbutamol, on the other hand, does have performance enhancing effects outside of pure bronchodilation. That's where the studies showing increased sprint power, anabolic effects, improved recovery time, improved energy generation etc come from. There's also data showing acute dosing (single dosing) is better than chronic dosing (1-3 weeks).

Oral salbutamol is a banned substance, inhaled doesn't need a TUE. The dose ceiling set for a positive test is based on what the majority of people sticking to the maximum prescribed inhaled dose are unlikely to go above. If you take it orally, you are much more likely to go over the dose ceiling. If your asthma is bad enough that we (speaking as a chest physician) consider oral salbutamol, you shouldn't be competing in stage races from a medical safety perspective.

Given Froome's never tested positive before and other people who have couldn't reproduce that result under controlled attempts to clear their name, there's a reasonable chance he was doping with oral salbutamol.

it makes a lot more sense than taking 30 puffs on an inhaler.

 

[blackcat]

The usual conspiracy theory BS.

Meanwhile, back in the real world:

"a 2011 review of 26 studies on the effects of inhaled beta-2 agonists found that the medications did not improve “endurance, strength or sprint performance in healthy athletes.” In another study published in 2011, Belgian researchers wrote that taking salbutamol “does not affect exercise capacity in normal subjects.”"

Show me a research trial that establishes that there is any performance benefit from using a Ventolin inhaler.

On the other hand, "performance-hindering side effects include dizziness, headaches, and nausea".

tis a freekin heuristic

#freekinheuristic

 

[Oscarman]

Did hear Warwick Hadfield talking about this on RN earlier today, and he could not help himself by saying that WADA suspend athletes with no evidence, positive tests etc, 'just ask 34 Essendon footballers'. Guess Warwick is drinking the Sky koolaid too.

Flog should let it go - the players have. Dickhead.

 

[PoopingHindi]

Did hear Warwick Hadfield talking about this on RN earlier today, and he could not help himself by saying that WADA suspend athletes with no evidence, positive tests etc, 'just ask 34 Essendon footballers'. Guess Warwick is drinking the Sky koolaid too.

Flog should let it go - the players have. Dickhead.

its Melbourne radio. everything has to be relatable to AFL or its not worth discussing. i dont know who the guy is but im guessing he doesnt ride/follow cycling?

 

[bing181]

http://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/jappl.2000.89.2.430
Increased Vo2 would be my choice as to why it is so popular.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8236068

Find some studies on athletes that show performance-enhancing benefit from inhaled salbutamol. Neither of these are that: the first is on athletes but is oral consumption, the second has nothing to do with athletes, nor with exercise-induced bronchospasm, nor with effects/benefits while exercising.

 

[bing181]

it makes a lot more sense than taking 30 puffs on an inhaler.

30 puffs on an inhaler would put you in hospital (if you made it in time).

If you want to go faster you don't use a Ventolin inhaler. Oral or injected salbutamol is another story, and that's what the WADA thresholds are designed to catch.

 

[yaco55]

I suggest you heed Blackcat's post - He pulls no punches and tells people what they don't wish to hear.

Bing - I pose this question which is seldom discussed - It's a fact that when children develop asthma in a number of cases it disappears in adulthood - So I wonder if some athletes who have asthma from childhood then it disappears but still act on the pretence it still exists, because asthma medication can boost performance if you no longer have asthma - Will add that if you develop asthma as an adult you then have it for the rest of your life.

No-one has picked up when Froome got an AAF - It was the stage after he struggled on the ascent of Muchacho - It's too coincidental when you consider Sky's cynical use of TUE's in the past - My take is the increased levels of salbutamol is a smokescreen for blood bags or masking agents - Finally the strangest thing about this whole episode is Froome failed to mention his asthma in his 2014 autobiography.

 

[Orange Agent]

Find some studies on athletes that show performance-enhancing benefit from inhaled salbutamol. Neither of these are that: the first is on athletes but is oral consumption, the second has nothing to do with athletes, nor with exercise-induced bronchospasm, nor with effects/benefits while exercising.

The problem as always is testing cannot determine what method an athlete has used to get an abnormal test result. Just like clebuterol use there is an argument to get away with it until they start getting serious about why so many pro cyclists are apparently suffering from asthma yet can perform to the level they do.

 

[bing181]

because asthma medication can boost performance if you no longer have asthma

My take is the increased levels of salbutamol is a smokescreen for blood bags or masking agents

a) No it can't (not when inhaled anyway)
b) If you have any evidence that salbutamol is a masking agent (studies to that effect?) be my guest.

 

[bing181]

... until they start getting serious about why so many pro cyclists are apparently suffering from asthma yet can perform to the level they do.

They aren't "suffering from asthma". They have an asthma-like reaction to strenuous exercise (wheezing, chest tightness, shortness of breath, coughing ) due to narrowing of the airways in the lungs. When the exercise stops, they no longer have the symptoms, and when they retire, they won't be asthmatic. Technically, it's not even asthma but exercise-induced bronchoconstriction or exercise-induced bronchospasm (EIB).

It's common amongst (elite) athletes in endurance sports (cycling, long-distance running), and in particular amongst sports played in the cold, most notably cross-country skiing where it's fairly rife (figures running up to 50%).

 

[bing181]

As good a summary of the background as any:

"That oral salbutamol can improve exercise performance has been confirmed [10].

But ... In a 2007 review, Kindermann[11] noted that numerous studies had demonstrated that inhaled salbutamol does not enhance sports performance. Subsequent published research has tended to confirm this fact in doses of up to 1600 μg in 24 h [12].

The contrast between the effects of the prohibited oral and the permitted inhaled salbutamol made it imperative to be able to distinguish administration by these two routes. Studies undertaken to determine this used 1600 μg of inhaled salbutamol over 24 h with 800 μg being administered in the last 4 h and the urinary concentration that achieved such a distinction was 1000 ng⋅mL−1 [13]. This is the basis of WADA advising that the presence of a concentration of salbutamol in the urine in excess of 1000 ng⋅mL−1 is presumed not to be the result of the therapeutic use of the drug, but is considered to be an adverse an AAF [4].

Although if inhaled over a 24 h period, the maximum allowable dose (1600 μg) should, in most persons and in most instances, not result in the urinary threshold being exceeded, it may do so and has on several occasions [8]. The probable reason is the wide and unpredictable interpersonal and intrapersonal variability in the metabolism and excretion of salbutamol [14]. If the permitted maximal dose was to be administered rapidly, such as in 3–4 h, then it is highly likely to result in a urinary level of salbutamol above 1000 ng⋅mL−1.

GlaxoSmithKline demonstrated this in 1988, when 15 healthy volunteers were administered a single dose of 1200 μg inhaled salbutamol and in seven out of the 15 subjects the urinary salbutamol concentrations were greater than 1000 ng⋅mL−1 with one subject exceeding 3000 ng⋅mL−1[15]."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1214556/

 

[GreyCrow]

They aren't "suffering from asthma". They have an asthma-like reaction to strenuous exercise (wheezing, chest tightness, shortness of breath, coughing ) due to narrowing of the airways in the lungs. When the exercise stops, they no longer have the symptoms, and when they retire, they won't be asthmatic. Technically, it's not even asthma but exercise-induced bronchoconstriction or exercise-induced bronchospasm (EIB).

It's common amongst (elite) athletes in endurance sports (cycling, long-distance running), and in particular amongst sports played in the cold, most notably cross-country skiing where it's fairly rife (figures running up to 50%).

I have these same reactions to exercise , I must be an athlete. Its common for everyone

Its your body saying dont push me anymore.

 

[HairyO]

A guy who consistently outperformed proven cheats gets caught cheating. The only surprise is that the Cycling Federation didnt try to bury the finding.

 

[PoopingHindi]

A guy who consistently outperformed proven cheats gets caught cheating. The only surprise is that the Cycling Federation didnt try to bury the finding.

considering this happened 3 months ago during a race which he was then allowed to continue, i'd say they've been doing their damnedest to bury it.
the story only broke because of an investigation by 2 newspapers.

 

[bing181]

considering this happened 3 months ago during a race which he was then allowed to continue ...

Maybe check WADA rules re suspension where there's an Adverse Analytic Finding (AAF). All will be revealed.

 

[PoopingHindi]

Maybe check WADA rules re suspension where there's an Adverse Analytic Finding (AAF). All will be revealed.

i googled. all i could find is that WADA does not announce the results of an AAF (aka positive drug test). that responsibility falls to the organisation in charge, in this case the UCI, who have been eerily quiet.

its quite likely that i missed something. if so please point me in the right direction.

 

[bing181]

"during a race which he was then allowed to continue ..."

You were referring to suspension. As was I.

 

[PoopingHindi]

You were referring to suspension. As was I.

fair enough.
i was also referring to the fact that the results werent made public and he was permitted to race again following the Vuelta.

 

[bing181]

fair enough.
i was also referring to the fact that the results werent made public and he was permitted to race again following the Vuelta.

It's an interesting one, but the biggest loser risks being Froome himself. When Simon Yates had a similar infringement (AAF, asthma drug, but needed a TUE which they didn't get), even though there was no suspension he stopped racing, and that period was then counted as part of his 4-month ban. (similar to Essendon players' situation). If Froome gets a suspension (looks likely), by continuing to race he may have effectively lengthened his ban.

Agree that regardless of the rules, it's not a good look that Froome continued racing after they received the results of the tests.

 

[Smedts_2]

I am Jack’s smirk of schadenfreude.

**** you Froome - anyone with an ounce of a brain knew this day would come after the shit you’ve asked us to swallow since 2011. I am kind of glad there’s a technical argument he can run because even if Sky bribe, lie and perjure their way out of yet another controversy, the ongoing media circus will mean even the ostriches with their heads firmly in the sand will see the Sky MO clearly now.

PS - I love Nib’s “rain in Spain” comments. Threw him under the bus beautifully...

 

[Donakebab]

Find some studies on athletes that show performance-enhancing benefit from inhaled salbutamol. Neither of these are that: the first is on athletes but is oral consumption, the second has nothing to do with athletes, nor with exercise-induced bronchospasm, nor with effects/benefits while exercising.

You know maybe, just maybe, he has been taking it orally and then using the inhaler to hide this fact... but that would make too much sense, instead he has a dosage that reads as if he has been sucking on it for hours.

 

[Donakebab]

https://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/article/2017/12/18/froome-test-disaster-ex-uci-boss

Former UCI president Pat McQuaid has called Chris Froome's adverse drugs test "a disaster" for cycling.

Four-time Tour de France winner Froome had double the permitted level of the asthma drug salbutamol in a urine test taken during his victory in the Vuelta in September.

The result is not automatically classified as a positive test - and the 32-year-old has not been suspended - but he must provide a satisfactory explanation for the adverse findings or he faces a ban and the loss of his Vuelta title.

Froome has denied any wrongdoing and said he is providing all the necessary information to the UCI, but Irishman McQuaid, who was president of the world governing body from 2005 to 2013, told BBC Sport Froome would find it "very hard to avoid a ban".

"I don't see how Chris Froome can turn around like he did and say 'I played by the rules, I broke no rules'," McQuaid said.

"The fact is, he has broken a rule. The fact is his urine sample was twice the permitted limit. It's up to him to go and prove that he could have done otherwise.

"We're now three months down the road, and they haven't found a solution or a resolution to it yet."