Society/Culture Dr Cornel West & the selling out of intellectuals from humanity .....pure genius.

[Chief]

Atheism misses the point of the significance of the spiritual dimension....Of the service to something greater than ourselves.

Of course it doesn't. But you do have to step back and understand there's no evidence for this magical plane of existence. None at all.

But this is for another thread.

 

[Chief]

And what are you here for

To make people money

That is the very system that has destroyed education law health religion science.

So... leave?

 

[Procrastinator35]

Of course it doesn't. But you do have to step back and understand there's no evidence for this magical plane of existence. None at all.

But this is for another thread.

Of course there is.....You visit it in your dreams every night Chief.

 

[Chief]

Of course there is.....You visit it in your dreams every night Chief.

Yeah.

 

[AM]

I think you have supernatural mixed up with religion....There's nothing 'supernatural' about both the existence & miracle of life & consciousness.

Religion and belief in the supernatural are not mutually exclusive. They are inseparable in my view.

Just what your last few words has to do with the supernatural eludes me.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Yeah.

Hur, hur….I was thinking more along the lines of The Aboriginal Dream-time Chief....A premise the North American Indians also share & partake in as the basis for their animistic religions & mythos.

But here's a more pertinent contemporary example for you to digest:

 

[Procrastinator35]

Religion and belief in the supernatural are not mutually exclusive. They are inseparable in my view.

Just what your last few words has to do with the supernatural eludes me.

I'd direct you to the works of Anthony Ashley Cooper, The third Earl of Shaftesbury & a student of John Locke.....Where he delineates the differences between true & false 'enthusiasm'.....True enthusiasm is where the religious element in man is in harmony & accords with man's rational nature, as opposed to false enthusiasm, which is characterised by superstitious, irrational nonsense....Deism.

https://stanford.library.sydney.edu.au/archives/fall2016/entries/shaftesbury/

 

[AM]

I'd direct you to the works of Anthony Ashley Cooper, The third Earl of Shaftesbury & a student of John Locke.....Where he delineates the differences between true & false 'enthusiasm'.....True enthusiasm is where the religious element in man is in harmony & accords with man's rational nature, as opposed to false enthusiasm, which is characterised by superstitious, irrational nonsense....Deism.

https://stanford.library.sydney.edu.au/archives/fall2016/entries/shaftesbury/

To quote Chief in this thread. *Sigh*

 

[Procrastinator35]

To quote Chief in this thread. *Sigh*

Too subtle & nuanced for you then I see.

Most moderns don't really understand religion at all I'm afraid.....They have it all entirely mixed up with a Medieval mind-set of darkness, hocus-pocus & superstition.

A thorough education in the classics would fix that soon enough.....You have to go all the way down to the pit of your soul & the grounds of your own existential vulnerable being, to comprehend what religion is truly all about.....You need to come to close personal terms with your own death in other words.

Unfortunately, the modern world is geared towards turning away from death & our fates.....and so religion also.

Religion is about the ultimate truth & all of our fates....which is inevitable & inescapable death....and it is that mortality & that truth which gives rise to all human values & our sense of our own humanity, which dwells in & abides by death.

 

[Thegibbsgamble]

Too subtle & nuanced for you then I see.

Most moderns don't really understand religion at all I'm afraid.....They have it all entirely mixed up with a Medieval mind-set of darkness, hocus-pocus & superstition.

A thorough education in the classics would fix that soon enough.....You have to go all the way down to the pit of your soul & the grounds of your own existential vulnerable being, to comprehend what religion is truly all about.....You need to come to close personal terms with your own death in other words.

Unfortunately, the modern world is geared towards turning away from death & our fates.....and so religion also.

Religion is about the ultimate truth & all of our fates....which is inevitable & inescapable death....and it is that mortality & that truth which gives rise to all human values & our sense of our own humanity, which dwells in & abides by death.

Of course those who love money are going to not understand religion.

The Bible says the love of money is the root of all evil. People don't like to face the darkness of thier own soul. As you so astutely pointed out. Not until they have to

 

[AM]

Of course those who love money are going to not understand religion.

The Bible says the love of money is the root of all evil. People don't like to face the darkness of thier own soul. As you so astutely pointed out. Not until they have to

You have a myopic view of the matter and a poor grasp of comparative religion and philosophy generally. I doubt you can see it. Absolutists rarely can.

Too subtle & nuanced for you then I see.

P35 "Subtle and nuanced"!!!

 

[Procrastinator35]

P35 "Subtle and nuanced"!!!

I'll be the first to admit I philosophize with a hammer.....I see you never even read the Shaftesbury article then.

The point being that life is a miracle & is magical enough all by itself, without having to invent any 'superstitious' component, as a means to attempt to try & debunk the religious sentiment.....Fundamental ontology in & of itself is explanation enough for it.

 

[Seeds]

Religion has worked longer than it hasn't. It's reflective of western civilisation and all its institutions

Law is not working
Health is not working
Education is not working
Neither is our food production or environmental management
Our democracy is not working.

Unfair to single out religion as mythical.

People currently have higher IQs then in known history so education must be doing an awful lot right. Our food production is so dramatically high that despite growing population world agriculture land is now shrinking cos we don’t need it anymore. World poverty levels are falling at a dramatic rate and famines are basically non existent now. Improvements in health have increased life expectancy dramatically in the past century in both developing and developing worlds. How do you sit there with a straight face and say health, education and food production is not working despite these dramatic improvements?

 

[Seeds]

And what are you here for

To make people money

That is the very system that has destroyed education law health religion science.

Ok you get making money is a process of providing services and goods that people want. The fact you are complaining about the existence of big footy whilst choosing to voluntarily post on big footy is hilariously hypocritical.

 

[Seeds]

Have to say that this man is far & away the most astute intellectual I have come across in my 5 years of cruising You-tube.

His articulation of the split & selling-out of intellectuals from their collective social-psychic roots, as the prophets & defenders of the people, via their seduction into the corporate controlled monetised individualism, Is as penetrating, insightful & precise as it gets.



The breadth & integrity of this man's knowledge is as profound as it gets peeps.

Intellectuals shouldn’t be defenders of the people. They should be the defenders of truth. The intellectuals of the past constantly fabricated or ignore reality to justify their incorrect collectivist social values and as a result caused great destruction on society. Those intellectuals should never return.

Humans are individuals and not slaves to some higher being or collective whole. Intellectuals who think otherwise are enemies of the people.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Intellectuals shouldn’t be defenders of the people. They should be the defenders of truth. The intellectuals of the past constantly fabricated or ignore reality to justify their incorrect collectivist social values and as a result caused great destruction on society. Those intellectuals should never return.

Humans are individuals and not slaves to some higher being or collective whole. Intellectuals who think otherwise are enemies of the people.

Sure humans are individuals. But we do indeed belong to a collective whole....And that collective whole is humanity....All these silly & inane capitalist rationalisations for individual ruthless ambition at the expense of the many, are grounded in a fundamental ontological denial that we all rely & depend upon each other for our well-being & existence.

Intellectuals role is to be the vanguard of society & humanity in naming the truth about what is wrong, rotten & corrupt in any system, by defending against it's injustices against humanity.....and that is where the truth lies my dear seeds.

 

[Seeds]

I think you have supernatural mixed up with religion....There's nothing 'supernatural' about both the existence & miracle of life & consciousness.



Well, our atheist friends like to refer to it as 'magic' in both a condescending & dismissive way....Connoting some child-like accompanying naive mindset, to the wonder at existence itself.....Which is of course no argument at all, other than semantic word-play.

As to 'fairy-tales', they were told in a way that could be digested by children without scaring them to death....The passing down of legend & folk stories from one generation to another, always incorporates an element of initiation into cultural mythology.....Even modernity itself is enmeshed in it's share of mythologies, as Adorno & Horkheimer have extrapolated so very well.....We tend to gloss over the inherent cruelty & barbarism that pervades the capitalist dog-eat-dog mind-set, fed as it is by a Social Darwinist element, of the survival of the fittest.....Some call it money magic, of the 'He who dies with the most toys wins' mythological mindset.

And yet still, none of us gets out alive.....Atheism misses the point of the significance of the spiritual dimension....Of the service to something greater than ourselves.

Tradition is all about honouring that sacred connection to the universal goodness that adheres in all of humanity.....To the very well-spring of the existence of humanity & consciousness itself.....These things can hardly be glossed over or waived away & dismissed as mere fairy-tales......They are our legacy to our children & the next generation.

There is no service to something greater then ourselves as ourselves is the only existence that each of us experiences whether we like it or not. There is no collective will let alone spiritual plane. Science has now proven this beyond reasonable doubt.

However it’s completely false to say Athiesm rejects helping others or fighting for causes that help others. We are a social species who each directly individually benefit from working together. Work and aid does not produce zero sum outcomes. They benefit everyone in the long run at least. On top of that we all have empathy algorithms that make our own experiences more rewarding if those around us are happy. On top of this we all have a yearning to find meaning and status from others and this can only be achieved by engaging with the world and people.

Your belief in a spiritual existence is an evolutionary trick to encourage you to work with others for the ultimate benefit of your own genes. Spiritual belief, like everything else, isn’t about a higher cause or other people but is ultimately about individualism. Wake up to reality.

 

[Procrastinator35]

There is no service to something greater then ourselves as ourselves is the only existence that each of us experiences whether we like it or not. There is no collective will let alone spiritual plane. Science has no proven this beyond reasonable doubt.

However it’s completely false to say Athiesm rejects helping others or fighting for causes that help others. We are a social species who each directly individually benefit from working together. Work and aid does not produce zero sum outcomes. On top of that we all have empathy algorithms that make our own experiences more rewarding if those around us are happy. On top of this we all have a yearning to find meaning and status from others and this can only be achieved by engaging with the world and people.

You belief in a spiritual existence is an evolutionary trick to encourage you to work with others for the ultimate benefit of your own genes. Spiritual belief, like everything else, isn’t about a higher cause or other people but is ultimately about individualism. Wake up to reality.

Sure there is....To our family & our loved ones....But also to society & humanity in general in the service of truth & justice.

 

[Gethelred]

Intellectuals shouldn’t be defenders of the people. They should be the defenders of truth. The intellectuals of the past constantly fabricated or ignore reality to justify their incorrect collectivist social values and as a result caused great destruction on society. Those intellectuals should never return.

Humans are individuals and not slaves to some higher being or collective whole. Intellectuals who think otherwise are enemies of the people.

By the same token, humans have biological imperative towards society. We are a social species, and it has ensured our survival to the current prosperous age we live in now. Plenty of people believe themselves individuals, if only because it provides for them the feeling of agency, of imbuing their actions and activities with meaning, when beyond a certain point their individual differences fade away into the collective.

You are certainly correct that intellectuals should be defenders of the truth, but they should also expose society on their collective illogicalities, exposing them and proving them false. It's how things are improved; it took scientists disprove notions of race influencing intelligence, philosophers to inspire notions of freedom, hard working politicians and intellectuals and philosophers all to push society in the continuing upward trend you so judiciously provide above.

Humans are not a slave to a collective whole or higher being, but they certainly have duties and responsibilities towards other humans.

 

[Seeds]

By the same token, humans have biological imperative towards society. We are a social species, and it has ensured our survival to the current prosperous age we live in now. Plenty of people believe themselves individuals, if only because it provides for them the feeling of agency, of imbuing their actions and activities with meaning, when beyond a certain point their individual differences fade away into the collective.

You are certainly correct that intellectuals should be defenders of the truth, but they should also expose society on their collective illogicalities, exposing them and proving them false. It's how things are improved; it took scientists disprove notions of race influencing intelligence, philosophers to inspire notions of freedom, hard working politicians and intellectuals and philosophers all to push society in the continuing upward trend you so judiciously provide above.

Humans are not a slave to a collective hole or higher being, but they certainly have duties and responsibilities towards other humans.

Great post. Only part I disagree with is the term duty or responsibility to other humans though. We should treat other humans well because it is better for us both physically and mentally and not cos of duty. Duty to me implies some alternative force the acts us on. But I’m guessing this is mostly semantics.

 

[Gethelred]

Great post. Only part I disagree with is the term duty or responsibility to other humans though. We should treat other humans well because it is better for us both physically and mentally and not cos of duty. Duty to me implies some alternative force the acts us on. But I’m guessing this is mostly semantics.

No alternative force, no, but it's like believing that you don't need to eat or drink, you don't need warmth. As a species and as individuals, we need others of our kind. We are both doomed and comforted by it, and to ensure that we continue as a species we have that responsibility towards others like us, to improve each other and to impart what we know.

Semantics, sure, but it's important semantics.

 

[Seeds]

No alternative force, no, but it's like believing that you don't need to eat or drink, you don't need warmth. As a species and as individuals, we need others of our kind. We are both doomed and comforted by it, and to ensure that we continue as a species we have that responsibility towards others like us, to improve each other and to impart what we know.

Semantics, sure, but it's important semantics.

Agree. It’s not just physical benefits we get from others but mental benefits as well. We are hardwired to get pleasure from contact with others. We are hardwired to feel empathy with those around us. Our wellbeing is all tied together but our experience of wellbeing is individual.

 

[Gethelred]

Agree. It’s not just physical benefits we get from others but mental benefits as well. We are hardwired to get pleasure from contact with others. We are hardwired to feel empathy with those around us. We are all tied together but our experience is individual.

It's part of what has made us dominant; all the benefits of a social species with the individual agency of a solitary predator.

Plus, the ability to kick a ball a long way.

 

[Thegibbsgamble]

So... leave?

Fascinating

This retort looks like an admission that your motives to post in this thread here is money.



A thread about a guy claiming that very thing is the reason why our system is corrupt that our intellectuals are blinded by money and thier intellect limited

Now you're not silly. You have a high academic ability. You deal with things on a daily basis I and many others could not. If this guy is wrong you wouldn't retort what you have. You would have the ability to accept what I see.



No amount of money can ever price this religious prophecy to be wrong

Were well over half way towards what these heavily religious people prophesized. All this destruction is in the name of making money

It's happening in front of our eyes. It's not religion blinding us from this. It's not science either. I wouldn't know what I know if it wasn't for both.

So what is it?

Pink Floyd knew when they made a song called money

People think throwing money at drought proofing a country ravaged by drought caused by the love of money is the answer

If we can call money a religion then these people believe in a mythological beast.

Sure there is....To our family & our loved ones....But also to society & humanity in general in the service of truth & justice.

You have a heart. Protect it but never ignore it

 

[Thegibbsgamble]

So Tesla.

Perhaps the greatest western scientific mind we know thinks that science is flawed unless it recognizes spirituality

fractalenlightenment.com/32589/life/the-beginning-is-near-the-marriage-of-science