Mega Thread Draft Talk Part 1

[Bird Man]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

if that is the case they stay. end of story.

It is just options to help people get what they want and the most for themselves!!

But if Lids wants to leave at years end which I would be gutted if he did I would be all for 17year olds from GWS

 

[santa claws]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

Santa, just a counter argument.

7. You say GC and GWS have gone past us, If this is the case don't we have to out youth GC and GWS by rising when GC and GWS are slipping under the leadership of Cotch and Marin. Also a good case Lids and Co may be better off traded to GWS to get a premiership before RFC a few years later.

6. You promote Houli and Grigg and then say they are not any good possibly. The point is fans are searching for a more robust clear definitive direction to a premiership that brings confidence IMO.

5. The Ruckman argument, has been done to death , and reeks of media manipulation and imbalance.Truth is with pick 5 we could get Longer and we have plenty of years ahead to make a Ruck adjustment if needed before our team gets in the premiership window which every observant follow must acknowledge is a few years away at earliest!!

4. Trading for youth increases the quality opportunity and quantity by getting younger quality youngsters with greater upside and opening up the opportunity to access higher draft picks in the short term future without tanking. It also makes the list younger allowing the premiership window to be extended and gives us more time to get more players of quality to play in our premiership team increasing the number of players we can get before we play in the big one.

3. We actually are in a position to take part. We have quality youngish players in Lids/Foley and JR that GWS would pay a premium for. Compare these to the likes of Davis , with respect, and you know these players, apart from other players we might have , are in demand. On top of that we have high end players that are very young in Cotch and Martin that can lead the cubs through the tougher times. We also have solid support in Vickery , Grimes and Rance apart from others. Making our list younger only boosts the lists prospects for a premiership for the ikes of Cotch and co making them happier and more sure RFC is the place to be for them to win a premiership.

You mention risk but are you really talking about fear?? What risk, there is no risk with Cotch and Co, don't you believe in them?? I do and I think they will stand up like they will have to in the GF. On top of that it will help our debt management increasing our room for player salaries, allow us to front load more, sures up Cotch and Martin to stay forever at Tigerland as well as Grimes etc..The direction is clearer and everybody at RFC will know what we need to do and the projected time frames as the age profiles are a lot more similar with similar goal aspirations as will the fans be clearer where we are going. The other thing it is not just about Omeara and co but the other recruits we can get in the next 5 years which wipes out any risk you fear. What is really going on here is turning over the Wallace era, so in terms of list time frames Martin is the new Lids and we are trying to build the list from him where we failed to do with Lids. We need to do this to get a premiership team together and the GWS opportunity de-risks us from the poor recruiting we had after Lids!!!

1. The risks are necesary Santa because we are looking at a premiership maybe in 6 years time when Lids is 30 and Foley older. So in effect there is no risk of losing a premiership opportunity. The fabric concept is another immeasurable concept to promote an argument without substance IMO. If anything RFC has nothing to lose!!!

We are not putting the basket on Vick and Griff because we will be chasing forwards for the next 8 years with high draft opportunities that will eventuate as our higher profile players initially depart. Anyway we can trade Lids and Foley etc... without JR. Don't worry I rate them all and JR high as well, if Tigerland does not get the high fair value he is worth such a trade would not eventuate nor would it if JR and Lids/Foley wants to stay. The other thing is JR could come back after 6 years or so because GWS, GC and RFC will have the players to trade amongst themselves as it suits them for the next decade!!

Santa you talk about Fabric and you say GC and GWS have gone past us. If Lids stays with RFC and Foley what about the natural discontent about longing for a premiership they may just miss out on due to the list not coming of age fast enough with enough quality?? With respect we don't want a Melbourne scenario! On top of that there is the risk of free agency and Carlton for example chasing Lids or whoever at the back end when Judd retires so we might not have him anyway. The other thing is when Lids and Foley might get an opportunity for the premiership it will be bang on when GWS and GC are very strong. This being the case their is a risk we actually keep them, no disrespect, because we all have a lot of man love for them as Tiger players!!

The point is as traders say, with players as commodities/assets, you 'buy straw hats in winter' and 'buy umbrellas in summer' to get value and advantage over your competitors!! The fact is if we are at least 4 years away it is a risk not to trade Lids and Foley etc... and not get the likes of O'meara who will be just entering their prime. If GWS look more like of a premiership before us, particularly if JR goes to them in 2012, these players are worth more to GWS than RFC as well apart from marketing and putting bums on seats, leadership, direction, and belief . And if GWS can win a premiership in 6 years don't tell me AFL HQ will not be over the moon penetrating the Sydney scene with all the money it brings. IF AFL HQ can get something to help the comp they will fall over themselves to do it as they have shown and RFC are in the box seat to help them out for our benefit to help us in turn win the holy grail in our time!!!

sheesh i dont know if i can find the time to reply to such dribble. i said before you suffer tunnell vision and its true.all i will say as i reckon ive made my position pretty clear is we agree on possible time frames and just how long it will take but disagree on how to go about it.
already gc have sort of gone down the path i advocate by taking brown, ablett x2, rischitelli,bock, brennan, harbrow, fraser, krakouer, zac smith who is already 21, stanley, tippett, patrick, coad, and harris, plus stanley ah chee, daye, dixon, all who turn 21 this yr. all would be termed mature and this group of mature players is better and more substantial than what we have, they have the opportunity to repeat this again they will again take their fair share of mature players, obviously while they still heavily participate in the nd.
we cannot afford to lose our younger better mature players they are the ones we build around not trade away.you totally fail to acknowledge the importance of mature players an the the role they must play in building and developing a young list. the simple fact is we dont have enough mature players we dont have enough quality players and we dont have enough just up to standard players.

any way suffice to say i think your approach unbalanced unrealistic and we dont agree having 44 kids under the age of 22 on the list with no leaders or experience around them which is what you are suggesting wont work.

just to finish a question.
how many proven yes proven up to standard yet alone quality footballers do we have on the list. it does not mean potential but consistent proven players.

 

[santa claws]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

We will need a second rebuild... may as well do it sooner rather than later..

under hardwick i thought we were still in the first one. sheesh did i miss something.

 

[santa claws]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

I agree but more because of Cotch, Martin and the youngsters we already have to grow!

oh yeah great that so called second rebuild will in all likely hood be an endless search for a decent kpf.

 

[santa claws]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

I'm really sick of this we need to win soon

I'm tired of being sh!t so I would be willing to do what ever is possible to win a flag in the next three years.

WE WILL NOT TRADE LIDS FOLEY OR JACK SOOO STOP SUGGESTING IT

Use what we have, not get rid of it

just a slight correction. build on what we have that is the only way we will win a flag in the next 5 yrs or 8 yrs even.

 

[Bird Man]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

just a slight correction. build on what we have that is the only way we will win a flag in the next 5 yrs or 8 yrs even.

So if we we were to trade lids jack and foley for these 17 year olds how long would it take ?

 

[santa claws]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

This is what Santa talks about when he refers to patience. THERE IS NO WAY WE WILL WIN A PREMIERSHIP IN 3 YEARS SO STOP SUGGESTING IT!!

The RFC promote this line to get bums on seats not realising what the fans want is hope, belief and a journey, not a piped up dream. I think some need to do a survey!

It is high time some thought about what is best for the club, the players and supporters long term and not themselves and the required decisions should become clearer!!

more dribble you well know the time frames i constantly talk about so cut out the b/s and cheap point scoring.
just for you ive said 2012 bottom 4, what with another 10 or so having to go. 2013 bottom half likely bottom 6 yep the final large clean out says we will still battle but we should improve with some of the kids starting to lead. 2014 may be around the bottom edges of the 8.that is with enough kids from the 09 10 11 12 13 drafts cstarting to come into their own. with your deledios and riewoldts as the mature club leaders. 2015 definate finals. 2016 17 top 4 2018 gf. this is the sort of realistic time frame i know we have to look at. i know you read my posts and i know you know this, so cut out the bs.

 

[santa claws]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

Guarantee you that the RFC will not give up any stars in our list for draft picks. Constancy is our problem and we lack leadership and a few key position players which we need to find with our draft picks not another stupid rebuild

Clubs thrive on members give up jack lids and others we will loose 10000 to 15000 members putting us into the dark years that we have been through

So just forget trading these players because you so valiantly stated this club needs hope and you ironically want to trade that hope for draftees that MAY be as good or better

i will say again we will continue to rebuild not start another. im more than happy to suffer for another 3 or 4 yrs as long as we go thru the rebuild correctly and for as long as it takes. leadership experience constancy consistency are all part of the picture. we need to ensure these things are in place not just now but when we are ready to challenge. it wont happen with just kids all under 22 23 which is what magic seems to be saying.

 

[Bird Man]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

more dribble you well know the time frames i constantly talk about so cut out the b/s and cheap point scoring.
just for you ive said 2012 bottom 4, what with another 10 or so having to go. 2013 bottom half likely bottom 6 yep the final large clean out says we will still battle but we should improve with some of the kids starting to lead. 2014 may be around the bottom edges of the 8.that is with enough kids from the 09 10 11 12 13 drafts cstarting to come into their own. with your deledios and riewoldts as the mature club leaders. 2015 definate finals. 2016 17 top 4 2018 gf. this is the sort of realistic time frame i know we have to look at. i know you read my posts and i know you know this, so cut out the bs.

remember there compromised drafts with GWS GC Adelaide and Port all looking to build or rebuild. We won't find the ideal talent we need so therefore look for it in other teams

 

[NQTIGER]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

i will say again we will continue to rebuild not start another. im more than happy to suffer for another 3 or 4 yrs as long as we go thru the rebuild correctly and for as long as it takes. leadership experience constancy consistency are all part of the picture. we need to ensure these things are in place not just now but when we are ready to challenge. it wont happen with just kids all under 22 23 which is what magic seems to be saying.

Well i guess most of us have suffered 31 so another 3 to 4 isnt much, but i did say at the start of the dimma regime not to expect finals for 7 to 8 years given we have to unearth 3-4 players a year, and no one has done that yet.

 

[Mr Magic]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

oh yeah great that so called second rebuild will in all likely hood be an endless search for a decent kpf.

When was the first rebuild??

To my recollection we haven't done a rebuild since the 1980's!!

Trading away Ottens is not a rebuild!

 

[Mr Magic]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

sheesh i dont know if i can find the time to reply to such dribble. i said before you suffer tunnell vision and its true.all i will say as i reckon ive made my position pretty clear is we agree on possible time frames and just how long it will take but disagree on how to go about it.
already gc have sort of gone down the path i advocate by taking brown, ablett x2, rischitelli,bock, brennan, harbrow, fraser, krakouer, zac smith who is already 21, stanley, tippett, patrick, coad, and harris, plus stanley ah chee, daye, dixon, all who turn 21 this yr. all would be termed mature and this group of mature players is better and more substantial than what we have, they have the opportunity to repeat this again they will again take their fair share of mature players, obviously while they still heavily participate in the nd.
we cannot afford to lose our younger better mature players they are the ones we build around not trade away.you totally fail to acknowledge the importance of mature players an the the role they must play in building and developing a young list. the simple fact is we dont have enough mature players we dont have enough quality players and we dont have enough just up to standard players.

any way suffice to say i think your approach unbalanced unrealistic and we dont agree having 44 kids under the age of 22 on the list with no leaders or experience around them which is what you are suggesting wont work.

just to finish a question.
how many proven yes proven up to standard yet alone quality footballers do we have on the list. it does not mean potential but consistent proven players.

Not many which is why you would go the rebuild with plenty on potential.

But just with GC, Ablett was a good selection as well as Bock and Harris but Harbrow, Krakeour where pretty pointless. The point is they had nothing but youth with NO afl experience before Ablett and co.. Z Smith is a rookie, Our players have a few years in the AFL system . That is a big difference so you can't compare us with GC. You can compare GWS to GC though which is why they would be interested in JR, Lids, Foley, Jackson, Tuck, Newie etc.. because they have no-none apart from Davis s with AFL level experience!!

 

[Mr Magic]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

i will say again we will continue to rebuild not start another. im more than happy to suffer for another 3 or 4 yrs as long as we go thru the rebuild correctly and for as long as it takes. leadership experience constancy consistency are all part of the picture. we need to ensure these things are in place not just now but when we are ready to challenge. it wont happen with just kids all under 22 23 which is what magic seems to be saying.

This compromised rebuild you speak of is why we have failed for years. You can't go half hearted at anything. What you speak of is protectionist dribble, nothing more!!!

 

[Mr Magic]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

remember there compromised drafts with GWS GC Adelaide and Port all looking to build or rebuild. We won't find the ideal talent we need so therefore look for it in other teams

The next draft are not compromised drafts!!!

Why are Adelaide and Port where they are??? The compromised rebuild Santa speaks of is the answer!!!

 

[santa claws]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

So if we we were to trade lids jack and foley for these 17 year olds how long would it take ?

if they make it we should not expect too much for at least 4 yrs or about 80 to 100 games. but dont forget if we trade out jack and deledio we will be in the same boat as we are now with a bunch of 21 22 yr olds with no leaders around them.
it like saying hawthorn should have traded hodge in 06 so they could get two early picks but who would not be ready until 2010 2011 and probably no hawthorn premiership in 08. by the way hawthorns premiership team in 08 was an average of 25 yrs and 124 games.their list average was 22yrs and 158 days it averaged 48 games.the vast majority of its premiership was made up of its mature players.
geelongs core group was recruited in 99 and 01 they built on these players it took them 8 yrs having already had a reasonable amount of experienced players supporting these draftees. for us to trade deledio would have been the equivalent of geelong trading an ablett or a corey or an enright or bartel.

its not just about youth its about a large core getting to 50 100 games plus. its about mature players around them while they develop its about maybe going thru the same process two or three times to get what you need gradually improving each time.its about finding enough real quality players who will step up and lead the foot soldiers.
whats a realistic time frame for a premiership i would have thought just useing common sense and making allowances anything from 4 to 7 8 yrs.
the bottom end of 4 yrs is unlikely because of the concessions to gws and gc. plain old common sense.

 

[MightyTiger]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

The next draft are not compromised drafts!!!

Why are Adelaide and Port where they are??? The compromised rebuild Santa speaks of is the answer!!!

They actually are compromised.... The 17 year olds both GC and GWS are allowed to take are taken from the next years draft pool, so for instance in 2008 GC were allowed to pre-list a bunch of 17 year olds such as Toy, Weller etc meaning the 2009 draft was even further diluted.

Do the same for GWS and in 2011/12 they can pre-list a bunch of 17 year olds diluting the 2012 draft of it's elite talent before they have even entered the ND.

The only reason why people are saying it isn't compromised is because GCS/GWS wont have the abundance of picks they were allowed when they first entered, but lets also take into account that GCS/GWS may likely end up being in the bottom 4 teams for quite a few years meaning they will most likely end up with Picks 1/2/3/4 to share between and a bunch of PPs.

So not only will they get to rape 2 drafts of all it's talent by allowing to pre-list 17 year olds and having pretty much every pick in the top20 but because they will be pretty bad for a couple of years they will still end up with even more top3 picks and PPs.

So yes they have diluted the draft and it will stay that way for quite some time, and that's even before you add in those Compensation picks into the picture.

 

[santa claws]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

When was the first rebuild??

To my recollection we haven't done a rebuild since the 1980's!!

Trading away Ottens is not a rebuild!

do you actually read previous posts before jumping in with your foot in your mouth. sheesh slow down actually read each post grasp what is being said actually understand what has been asked and you may not muddy the waters of threads like you do.

just for you again a first rebuild was not mentioned by me go ask nut that one.what was mentioned was we will go into a second rebuild by nut. i mentioned to nut that i was under the impression that under hardwick we were in the first rebuild. so in a way we are on the same page as we are with a lot of things.
ffs at least have the courtesy to read what is being said by all posters and acknowledge who is replying to who.if you want to play silly buggers so be it if you want a proper debate please have some courtesy and read other posts first. oh while your at it can you at least try and remember what posters have said in the debate that is if you even take the time to properly read what others have to say.

needless to say we disagree on some pretty key points on some others we are close. believe it or not we both agree the primary way to rebuild is with youth and in the nd. at least i think you basically agree with this. i also think we both agree its a long process we will have to go thru.

finally there was a stage when i thought exactly like you but time and that old thing called experience has shown me its not just about youth you cant ignore all other factors.

 

[santa claws]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

They actually are compromised.... The 17 year olds both GC and GWS are allowed to take are taken from the next years draft pool, so for instance in 2008 GC were allowed to pre-list a bunch of 17 year olds such as Toy, Weller etc meaning the 2009 draft was even further diluted.

Do the same for GWS and in 2011/12 they can pre-list a bunch of 17 year olds diluting the 2012 draft of it's elite talent before they have even entered the ND.

The only reason why people are saying it isn't compromised is because GCS/GWS wont have the abundance of picks they were allowed when they first entered, but lets also take into account that GCS/GWS may likely end up being in the bottom 4 teams for quite a few years meaning they will most likely end up with Picks 1/2/3/4 to share between and a bunch of PPs.

So not only will they get to rape 2 drafts of all it's talent by allowing to pre-list 17 year olds and having pretty much every pick in the top20 but because they will be pretty bad for a couple of years they will still end up with even more top3 picks and PPs.

So yes they have diluted the draft and it will stay that way for quite some time, and that's even before you add in those Compensation picks into the picture.

sheesh a common sense post that deals in the way things are rather than the way we want them to be.

as i tried to popint out to old tunnel vision gws and gc will go past us common sense says they will. for where we are at catching them up cant be done in the nd not in the short term and not if we fail to bring in enough experience and know how to help the many kids that we are bringing in.
its like pulling teeth when people have such one dimensional views.

perhaps its me i know i dont articulate what i want to say very well but i at least thought what i say is understandable.

the team i hate the most is probably carlton. but it does not stop me from looking at what they have done.

they took a bloke called garlett out of the wafl and rookied him at age 20 still young but at 20 you would call him a mature recruit from a minor league. sheesh do we need a small forward or what. what about michael jamison do we need a quality fb same story as garlett and cheap. theres 3 or 4 others on carltons list who would be upgrades on many players we have but to magic this is not on. he seems to think with every pick we use we will magically pick a winner. he thinks we either pick a long term player or we miss sheesh it will take forever to build a team capable of winning a flag if we think that way. nothing but kids and hope every pick is a good one. and to top it off those kids are going to do it all without a core of senior players behind them, its unbelievable.

 

[Bird Man]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

Trade our first pick for Dangerfield

Get Trengrove for free

Get Players from Port and Crows cause there gonna rebuild (Boak ect ect)

Nahas and Tuck for a 17 year old from GWS

and use our compo pick next year

Done

 

[santa claws]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

Trade our first pick for Dangerfield

Get Trengrove for free

Get Players from Port and Crows cause there gonna rebuild (Boak ect ect)

Nahas and Tuck for a 17 year old from GWS

and use our compo pick next year

Done

the reality.

we will have to give up more than pick 10 to get dangerfield.
personally the only time i would trade out of a top 10 pick is if we were looking for a final piece to actually challenge for a flag. ie jolly at collingwood.
look at geelong they have traded out of just 1 first rnd nd pick in 11 yrs. that was to get ottens and it was shrewd. they had their team built it was lacking just 2 pieces. they have also used every second rnd pick they have had in the last 11 yrs.
if you look at most sides this has been a constant, sides rarely ever trade themselves out of the first rnd and if they do its for a damn good reason,they value early picks and they go thru a process every yr to ensure they utilise their early picks and gain others if possible no wonder we have failed in our recruiting.
wallace had one thing right we as a club had to participate in the first rnd of nd we had to make it compulsory yr in yr out.

lol trengove will cost heaps to who ever he goes to.either that or he will end up at gws in the psd. he is easily worth a high 1st rnd pick or a high quality or potential high quality player.

nahas and tuck for what could possibly be a very good to elite footballer. akin to saying tuck at 30 and with his his flaws and nahas a very ordinary player over martin. or a top 5 pick in the nd it is fantasy stuff.
if we want a 17 yr old it will cost us one of the few better players we have if not more. or multiple nd picks.
as i have said i dont believe we are in a position to go after the 17 yr olds.

the adelaide pick, personally having not used it last yr in what i thought was a strong draft why use it this yr if the draft is as shallow as they say. players who were still there last yr and available to us at that pick were darling, lycett, harper, green, horlin-smith, mccarthy, hallahan, taylor, parker, michie, fasolo,and i reckon ive missed some.
the only way they will use it is if they have a specific target and they are sure he will still be there.or they use it as part of a trade for a specific player or as part of a pick upgrade.

 

[Bird Man]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

the reality.

we will have to give up more than pick 10 to get dangerfield.
personally the only time i would trade out of a top 10 pick is if we were looking for a final piece to actually challenge for a flag. ie jolly at collingwood.
look at geelong they have traded out of just 1 first rnd nd pick in 11 yrs. that was to get ottens and it was shrewd. they had their team built it was lacking just 2 pieces. they have also used every second rnd pick they have had in the last 11 yrs.
if you look at most sides this has been a constant, sides rarely ever trade themselves out of the first rnd and if they do its for a damn good reason,they value early picks and they go thru a process every yr to ensure they utilise their early picks and gain others if possible no wonder we have failed in our recruiting.
wallace had one thing right we as a club had to participate in the first rnd of nd we had to make it compulsory yr in yr out.

lol trengove will cost heaps to who ever he goes to.either that or he will end up at gws in the psd. he is easily worth a high 1st rnd pick or a high quality or potential high quality player.

nahas and tuck for what could possibly be a very good to elite footballer. akin to saying tuck at 30 and with his his flaws and nahas a very ordinary player over martin. or a top 5 pick in the nd it is fantasy stuff.
if we want a 17 yr old it will cost us one of the few better players we have if not more. or multiple nd picks.
as i have said i dont believe we are in a position to go after the 17 yr olds.

the adelaide pick, personally having not used it last yr in what i thought was a strong draft why use it this yr if the draft is as shallow as they say. players who were still there last yr and available to us at that pick were darling, lycett, harper, green, horlin-smith, mccarthy, hallahan, taylor, parker, michie, fasolo,and i reckon ive missed some.
the only way they will use it is if they have a specific target and they are sure he will still be there.or they use it as part of a trade for a specific player or as part of a pick upgrade.

Mmm
But what if Trengrove wants to come to us wouldnt Port have to Cop what we give them ? same with dangerfield ?

 

[theflea]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

i still dont dont see what trengove can give us???

 

[nut]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

i still dont dont see what trengove can give us???

X 2.... I've said it before if our Football departmnet cant develop a Strong defence out of Lids, Rance, Grimes, Guordis, Mcguane, Thursfield, Astbury, Post, Batchelor, Helbig, Conca, Connors, Houli, Grigg, Moore...... Then we really need a new football department.


What we need is a deeper Midfield..... I would have a play for Dangerfield. Edwards + our first pick might just do it.

 

[Bird Man]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

X 2.... I've said it before if our Football departmnet cant develop a Strong defence out of Lids, Rance, Grimes, Guordis, Mcguane, Thursfield, Astbury, Post, Batchelor, Helbig, Conca, Connors, Houli, Grigg, Moore...... Then we really need a new football department.


What we need is a deeper Midfield..... I would have a play for Dangerfield. Edwards + our first pick might just do it.

I think he can take lids spot and allow him to go foward

Did u see Dangerfields game saving tackel? I WANT HIM IN PUNT RD

 

[jeff99_Au]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

trade do whatever needed but we need a afl standard ruckmen badly

dangerfield overrated