Mega Thread Draft Talk Part 1

[nut]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

yes i was. But we cant afford to lose the best FF going around and potential back-to-back coleman medallist. Imagine him, vickery and a full-flight Griff if it happens all together. With some serious depth in the midfield which i think we can obtain within next 2 drafts if we play our cards right.

We've had one of the best forwards in the game for the last 17 years!!!!! did it get us anywhere??? so how can you tell me we cant afford to lose Jack??? if it ment getting to elite mids then we should consider it.

We will never make the hard decision at this club because we put our players up on a pedestal and worship them like gods....

It would also send a message to the playing group that no one is safe. I'm sick of supporting a club that the players keep bending us over......

end rant.

 

[deled3]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

As much as I loved Richo there is a reason why he was never captain or an integral part of our leadership team, Jack is no different.... Jack is very self motivated and very interested in his own success. I've seen more dummy spits, looking down at other players and arm throwing from Jack than I did from Richo...

If Jack ends up as vice captain then god help us.

Jack loves the club, he spits the dummy as did Richo because of the shithouse delivery. I don't think any forward would applaud their midfield when they kick it to the wrong side or at their feet on a consistent basis.

Nut it is all well and good to go on about this 'opportunity' but what if we traded Jack for say what eventuated to be Masten and Cale Morton.

We know how good Jack is, he is having a down year with injury niggles and is coming second in the Coleman. It is ridiculous to even consider trading him with the number of unknowns in this scenario.

 

[Jimmy6019]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

We've had one of the best forwards in the game for the last 17 years!!!!! did it get us anywhere??? so how can you tell me we cant afford to lose Jack??? if it ment getting to elite mids then we should consider it.

We will never make the hard decision at this club because we put our players up on a pedestal and worship them like gods....

It would also send a message to the playing group that no one is safe. I'm sick of supporting a club that the players keep bending us over......

end rant.

x2. We have to get this rebuild right this time.. No excuses, whatever it takes.

 

[tigs2010]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

The whole idea is based on a second rebuild and strengthen our midfield so it becomes an elite midfield..... are you suggesting getting rid of 2 mids to gain 2??? this doesn't make sense.

If u read what i wrote i actually said 2 for 4. We would give up Deledio and Foley for 2 of the 17yo's PLUS say pick 15 AND their 2nd rounder. Or a top 10 pick instead of 15 and 28. (would prefer 2nd option due to evenness of draft.
We would then have pick 1 & 2 mini draft as well as pick 10,15,28,31. Could trade 31 off for a ruck and still get 5 mids hoping at least 4 are genuine best 22.

Looking at Knightmare's mock we could end up with. O'Meara (182cm/75kg), Crouch (184/83), Kavanagh (187/78), McKenzie (188/75) Kerridge (188/84). All mids and all of a good size, all have good skills and speed and can win their own footy. PLUS we would have a 3 pronged attack to kick it too. Would hope to get Zac Clarke with our other 2nd rounder. 3rd rounder would look at Raikiwasa if available. 191cm/91kg really athletic backman like Harry O'Brien. We would no longer be little runts. Our team would be as intimidating as any other. Then add 3 top 30 picks next year to that list.

 

[nut]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

Jack loves the club, he spits the dummy as did Richo because of the shithouse delivery.

EXACTLY......... you just answered why I want this done. Geelong have proved you can pluck a 28 year old FF from the VFL and he will do the job if you have an elite midfield.
Jack loves Jack...

 

[TOOs_Finest]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

I dont give a crap about commercial face of the club... I want a flag. If we can get 2 more elite mids then we would be better off. Simple. If Geelong doesn't teach you that then I cant.

If we can have two dominant KP forwards, we would be better off. If Hawthorn doesn't teach you that then I cant.

Amidoinitrite?


Love your passion nut, but you really do need to learn the difference between opinion and fact.

How many years did Richo play for us, 16 or 17? You're telling me that if we had traded him in year 3 or 4, we could then have had a star midfield. But by keeping him, in those 17 years, we had no hope of assembling a decent midfield.

Now you think our only hope of having a competitive midfield is to obtain two more top 5 picks and use them on midfielders, even though there are no guarantees that those players will actually be top 5 picks. So lets say we trade Jack for 2 17yo's. Then 5 years down the track, one of them is a gun, and one is Aaron Firoa II. Will you renew your membership?

You want to use Geelong as an example, fine. How many top 5 picks do they have in their midfield exactly? We already have three ffs, including Lids.

So yes, as you suggest, lets go down the path of Geelong, and use the stock standard draft to pick good players who can be developed into premiership mids. And if you don't believe we have the development programs in place, then we can have 20 top 5 picks and it won't matter one iota.

The more I think about it, I just cannot see how other clubs have managed to secure such good midfields without access to a mini-draft like this. It must be impossible, surely.

 

[nut]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

If u read what i wrote i actually said 2 for 4. We would give up Deledio and Foley for 2 of the 17yo's PLUS say pick 15 AND their 2nd rounder. Or a top 10 pick instead of 15 and 28. (would prefer 2nd option due to evenness of draft.
We would then have pick 1 & 2 mini draft as well as pick 10,15,28,31. Could trade 31 off for a ruck and still get 5 mids hoping at least 4 are genuine best 22.

You are still weakening our midfield for the next 2-3 years. Do you think jack will want to hang around if we made our delivery to him worse??? by the time these young player were ready to go, Jack would be heading else where anyway...

 

[Jimmy6019]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

If we can have two dominant KP forwards, we would be better off. If Hawthorn doesn't teach you that then I cant.

Amidoinitrite?


Love your passion nut, but you really do need to learn the difference between opinion and fact.

How many years did Richo play for us, 16 or 17? You're telling me that if we had traded him in year 3 or 4, we could then have had a star midfield. But by keeping him, in those 17 years, we had no hope of assembling a decent midfield.

Now you think our only hope of having a competitive midfield is to obtain two more top 5 picks and use them on midfielders, even though there are no guarantees that those players will actually be top 5 picks. So lets say we trade Jack for 2 17yo's. Then 5 years down the track, one of them is a gun, and one is Aaron Firoa II. Will you renew your membership?

You want to use Geelong as an example, fine. How many top 5 picks do they have in their midfield exactly? We already have three ffs, including Lids.

So yes, as you suggest, lets go down the path of Geelong, and use the stock standard draft to pick good players who can be developed into premiership mids. And if you don't believe we have the development programs in place, then we can have 20 top 5 picks and it won't matter one iota.

Yes there is an element of risk involved... but guess what, there are no guarentees in life and you HAVE to take calculated risks to be successfull and win a Premiership. What is going to set us apart from the other 17 teams in the league, if we are not prepared to take any risks and just sit back and pray for miracles late in the draft???

 

[tigs2010]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

You are still weakening our midfield for the next 2-3 years. Do you think jack will want to hang around if we made our delivery to him worse??? by the time these young player were ready to go, Jack would be heading else where anyway...

Because Foley is a wonderful exponent of the art of kicking? Like i said O'Meara, Crouch, Kavanagh and McKenzie are all very good kicks of the footy. Foley is not. I'd bank on Cotchin, Martin, Conca all improving, Houli will hopefully play further up the ground to deliver to him.

If we trade Jack our forward line goes to shit does it not? Then the whole team goes backwards because we can't score and Deledio will leave for success elsewhere in Free Agency. Jack can't do that. He is signed longer than Lids so we have longer to get better. O'Meara and Crouch can learn their craft at Coburg in 2012 while Kavanagh, McKenzie and Kerridge can play for Richmond next year. Add O'Meara, Crouch another 2 or 3 good kicks in 2012 draft and by end of 2014 when Jack enters Free Agency we should be pushing finals.

Trade Lids/Foley we will suck in 2012.
Trade Jack we will suck in 2012.
Do nothing we will probably suck a little bit less in 2012 but doubt we will play finals anyway.

 

[nut]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

If we can have two dominant KP forwards, we would be better off. If Hawthorn doesn't teach you that then I cant.

Amidoinitrite?


Love your passion nut, but you really do need to learn the difference between opinion and fact.

How many years did Richo play for us, 16 or 17? You're telling me that if we had traded him in year 3 or 4, we could then have had a star midfield. But by keeping him, in those 17 years, we had no hope of assembling a decent midfield.

Now you think our only hope of having a competitive midfield is to obtain two more top 5 picks and use them on midfielders, even though there are no guarantees that those players will actually be top 5 picks. So lets say we trade Jack for 2 17yo's. Then 5 years down the track, one of them is a gun, and one is Aaron Firoa II. Will you renew your membership?

You want to use Geelong as an example, fine. How many top 5 picks do they have in their midfield exactly? We already have three ffs, including Lids.

So yes, as you suggest, lets go down the path of Geelong, and use the stock standard draft to pick good players who can be developed into premiership mids. And if you don't believe we have the development programs in place, then we can have 20 top 5 picks and it won't matter one iota.

The Hawks are the exception to the rule.... at the end of the day it was the Hawks midfield that won on the day...

16 years with Richo and now 1 with Jack.....

No I'm saying we spent the whole time hoping Richo would get us a flag and neglected our midfield....

 

[TOOs_Finest]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

Yes there is an element of risk involved... but guess what, there are no guarentees in life and you HAVE to take calculated risks to be successfull and win a Premiership. What is going to set us apart from the other 17 teams in the league, if we are not prepared to take any risks and just sit back and pray for miracles late in the draft???

Last time I checked, we get a first and second round draft pick every year.

Hey I have an idea, lets not take a risk where we don't have to. ie. trade a certain gun for two possible guns, who could actually turn out to be nothing.

Fine, take a risk where there risk is involved anyway. Some would suggest FJ has been doing that the past couple of drafts anyway. Just don't be utterly stupid about it.

 

[nut]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

Because Foley is a wonderful exponent of the art of kicking? Like i said O'Meara, Crouch, Kavanagh and McKenzie are all very good kicks of the footy. Foley is not. I'd bank on Cotchin, Martin, Conca all improving, Houli will hopefully play further up the ground to deliver to him.

If we trade Jack our forward line goes to shit does it not? Then the whole team goes backwards because we can't score and Deledio will leave for success elsewhere in Free Agency. Jack can't do that. He is signed longer than Lids so we have longer to get better. O'Meara and Crouch can learn their craft at Coburg in 2012 while Kavanagh, McKenzie and Kerridge can play for Richmond next year. Add O'Meara, Crouch another 2 or 3 good kicks in 2012 draft and by end of 2014 when Jack enters Free Agency we should be pushing finals.

Trade Lids/Foley we will suck in 2012.
Trade Jack we will suck in 2012.
Do nothing we will probably suck a little bit less in 2012 but doubt we will play finals anyway.

The Forward line doesn't turn to shit.... Has Carlton gone backwards since losing Fev??? It means we create more avenues to goal and become more predictable then "kick it to Richo or Jack"....

Foley is one of our best kicks...

 

[TOOs_Finest]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

The Hawks are the exception to the rule.... at the end of the day it was the Hawks midfield that won on the day...

16 years with Richo and now 1 with Jack.....

No I'm saying we spent the whole time hoping Richo would get us a flag and neglected our midfield....

I certainly didn't hope Richo would get us a flag. And I agree that we certainly didn't get our midfield right. But that had nothing to do with Richo's presence. That was because our footy dept kept thinking they could pull a rabbit out of a hat, and went ahead doing stupid trades

 

[Jimmy6019]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

Last time I checked, we get a first and second round draft pick every year.

Hey I have an idea, lets not take a risk where we don't have to. ie. trade a certain gun for two possible guns, who could actually turn out to be nothing.

Fine, take a risk where there risk is involved anyway. Some would suggest FJ has been doing that the past couple of drafts anyway. Just don't be utterly stupid about it.

I wouldn't rade him for anything less that 2 mini-draft players and a high first rounder but that is beside the point. Again... nothing is risk free, yes we could miraculously balls up our draft picks (unlikely as these kids are the best decided by all the clubs so FJ can't even **** that up), but on the flip side Jack could get a career ending injury sometime in the next few years... also unlikely (touchwood) but possible. There is always a degree of risk in life, no guarentees on both sides of the coin.

 

[tigs2010]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

Last time I checked, we get a first and second round draft pick every year.

Hey I have an idea, lets not take a risk where we don't have to. ie. trade a certain gun for two possible guns, who could actually turn out to be nothing.

Fine, take a risk where there risk is involved anyway. Some would suggest FJ has been doing that the past couple of drafts anyway. Just don't be utterly stupid about it.

I guess my fear is him walking out next year as a FA or uncontracted player whatever he chooses. He nearly left end of '09 so 3 more years of failure what's keeping him here? Though we are on the same page regards to Jack. Not many out there like him nor are there any in the mini draft. FF would take another 4-5 years to show something.

I could see us lining up like this in 2 years time:

B: Grimes, Rance, Raikiwasa (191cm/91kg)
HB: Batchelor, Astbury, Newman
C: Conca, Cotchin, Kavanagh
HF: Crouch, Griffiths, Kerridge
FF: Vickery, Riewoldt, Nahas
R: Z.Clarke, Martin, O'Meara
INT: Houli, McKenzie, Garlett (2012 draft)
SUB: compo pick.

Plus we would have compo pick and 2nd rounder from 2012 to fit in as well.
Plus any late gems from next 2 drafts.

That team has 3 KPB: Rance, Astbury, Grimes.
2 tall rebounding defenders that can take smalls. Raikiwasa and Batch as well as Newman rebounding.
3KPF Riewoldt, Griff, Vick (2nd ruck with Z.Clarke in ruck)
Small forward: Nahas
Elite midfield of Cotch, Martin, O'Meara, Conca, Crouch, Kavanagh, Garlett, McKenzie, Kerridge and Houli and compo pick as back up.

If we get it right would we really be missing them that much?
Or we can keep the side we have take our 1st rounders each year and get belted by GC and GWS.

That side listed has no more Jackson, Tuck, Morton, McGuane, Thursfield, Gus, Browne, Edwards, Grigg etc.

 

[tigs2010]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

The Forward line doesn't turn to shit.... Has Carlton gone backwards since losing Fev??? It means we create more avenues to goal and become more predictable then "kick it to Richo or Jack"....

Foley is one of our best kicks...

There's our problem then. Because he wouldn't be at a top club.

 

[TOOs_Finest]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

I wouldn't rade him for anything less that 2 mini-draft players and a high first rounder but that is beside the point. Again... nothing is risk free, yes we could miraculously balls up our draft picks (unlikely as these kids are the best decided by all the clubs so FJ can't even **** that up), but on the flip side Jack could get a career ending injury sometime in the next few years... also unlikely (touchwood) but possible. There is always a degree of risk in life, no guarentees on both sides of the coin.

So what if, upon seeing that the club is willing to trade the likes of Jack... Cotchin and/or Martin stopped the current trend of putting the club before themselves, lost faith in the club, and began taking seriously offers from other clubs?

Should we take this into account? (serious question)

 

[nut]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

Last time I checked, we get a first and second round draft pick every year.

Hey I have an idea, lets not take a risk where we don't have to. ie. trade a certain gun for two possible guns, who could actually turn out to be nothing.

Fine, take a risk where there risk is involved anyway. Some would suggest FJ has been doing that the past couple of drafts anyway. Just don't be utterly stupid about it.

Here is the deal...... Potentially we would well placed to gain 2 players at the level of Cotchin/O'meara and Martin/ Crouch..... as an example.

If the question was what would you rather lose JR or both Martin and Cotchin?


Yes this would be a huge risk but the gamble would be on the back of Griffith/Post becoming a Key forward and using the ND to find another.

So in 2-3 years we have an elite midfield.... plus hopefully a forward line is also developing.... but not having the best forward in the comp is not a huge loss...

Look at the saints... they have Milne for crying out load.... the need for a Key forward is well overrated. Who have the swans got??? Hall never got the dogs over the line... Geelong have Pods...

Midfield midfield midfield.......

 

[tigs2010]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

Here is the deal...... Potentially we would well placed to gain 2 players at the level of Cotchin/O'meara and Martin/ Crouch..... as an example.

If the question was what would you rather lose JR or both Martin and Cotchin?


Yes this would be a huge risk but the gamble would be on the back of Griffith/Post becoming a Key forward and using the ND to find another.

So in 2-3 years we have an elite midfield.... plus hopefully a forward line is also developing.... but not having the best forward in the comp is not a huge loss...

Look at the saints... they have Milne for crying out load.... the need for a Key forward is well overrated. Who have the swans got??? Hall never got the dogs over the line... Geelong have Pods...

Midfield midfield midfield.......

Saints have Nick Riewoldt?

 

[nut]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

There's our problem then. Because he wouldn't be at a top club.

????/ he was best on for the vics a few years ago.... first year back from Injury. Next season he will be back to his best.

 

[nut]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

Saints have Nick Riewoldt?

yer and his kicking is sublime.... who averages more goals a game??? Milne or the nudist?

We also have Vickory.

 

[Jimmy6019]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

So what if, upon seeing that the club is willing to trade the likes of Jack... Cotchin and/or Martin stopped the current trend of putting the club before themselves, lost faith in the club, and began taking seriously offers from other clubs?

Should we take this into account? (serious question)

Should this be taken into account if we trade Foley, Morton, Tuck, delist Miller.. etc etc? Sorry but at the end of the day they are employed to win games and Premierships, not to get overly sentimental if a few hard decisions are made. Also they would probably see that the club is SERIOUS about securing a Permiership and would want to be involved in our future success I would have thought? I think we would be at bigger risk of losing them if we continue down the same familliar road... once they realise we are going to top out at about 6-10 position.

 

[tigs2010]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

????/ he was best on for the vics a few years ago.... first year back from Injury. Next season he will be back to his best.

his kicking skills aren't the reason he was so good. his ability to win the footy and burst away from packs is. Not saying he is terrible but he isn't great at all. is also small. you wouldn't give up Foley for 2nd pick in mini-draft and a 2nd round pick that can be used on a ruckman? Effectively getting a free ruckman as we would comfortably replace him with an elite mid.

 

[nut]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

his kicking skills aren't the reason he was so good. his ability to win the footy and burst away from packs is. Not saying he is terrible but he isn't great at all. is also small. you wouldn't give up Foley for 2nd pick in mini-draft and a 2nd round pick that can be used on a ruckman? Effectively getting a free ruckman as we would comfortably replace him with an elite mid.

They wont offer that for him.....

Jack is a big name player.... Thats what GWS WANT. Foley is worth more to us then he is too GWS and his value due to injuries has dropped. It would be like trying to sell your car with four flat tyres and no brakes.

 

[tigs2010]

Re: What will we do with our 1st round draft pick?

yer and his kicking is sublime.... who averages more goals a game??? Milne or the nudist?

We also have Vickory.

Vickery is a back up ruck too. So when he goes ruck who do we kick it to? If u have a look at the team i posted on the previous page you will see what im getting at. We would have 8-10 elite mids running around through the middle, flanks and rotating with the bench. If u have 2 wings, a centre, a ruck rover and a rover. thats 5 mids. We would possibly have 10. 2 midfields. Isn't that what you are after? They are also ALL good kicks of the footy. We would also keep our 3 pronged forward line (Jack, Vicks and Griff) That is a seriously good team to work with.

Then as DD said we have a 1st/2nd round pick every year which we can keep adding to it. Or even upgrade certain positions like the ruck if say Z.Clarke doesn't work out. Or key back if Rance, Astbury, Grimes doesn't work. Would also look at getting 2 this draft. Schade (194cm/81kg) and Bosely (194cm/80kg) both full backs. As well as rookie Jay Lever (3rd best ruck in draft expected to last that long.) and Russell Gabriel (197/100) as best VFL ruck.