Draft vs Doozy

[Barry_Badrinath]

So it's day 2 of free agency and everyone is melting because we haven't landed a big fish yet, so it might be a good time to make this thread.

Every year we get meltdowns over our inability to land the big fish. Every year we keep our first rounder. Yet every year we come away with another quality player with our first rounder. That doesn't stop people from complaining about the lack of doozy though.

The 4 drafts since free agency was introduced have been the same old story.

2012: Meltdown because we missed Dom Tyson with pick 9. We ended up getting Nick Vlastuin with that pick. Got McIntosh in the 2nd round too.

2013: Meltdown because we missed Taylor Adams. We ended up getting Ben Lennon with that pick. Funnily enough, everyone is furious that Ben might be leaving soon.

2014: Meltdown because we missed Greenwood and other assorted Doozys (Doozi?, not sure what the plural is). Ended up drafting Corey Ellis and Menadue.

2015: Meltdown before trade week has even started because we've missed Treloar, Danfgerfield, Motlop and Bennell and it's looking like there probably won't be a doozy.

Looking at that, missing out on doozys has been good for us so far and we've still managed to improve the list, and we haven't had to break the bank either.

So the question is: do we even need a doozy, or are you happy to back our recruiters in with pick 12?

 

[Stitch]

 

[Foley#41]

Stop being reasonable.

 

[Squibbs]

I guess they both have there benefits; continously drafting quality kids will see us continue to steadily build and reach the finals consistently. Which is great, we all want to be up there for a while. But in terms of next year, we won't be finishing much higher than 5th.

If we went down the doozy path however and landed say a Dangerfield (Obviously he always wants to go to Geelong but it's just a hypothetical) along with Yarran it would instantly launch us into the contenders category for 2016. Memberships would go through the roof and the buzz around Richmond would be crazy until the season starts. Short-term, we get a serious crack at the flag.

My heart continues to say we should of landed a big name player, our list is close but with the addition of another gun we'd just about be there and I would kill to see us actually have a real chance at a flag next year, our core is peaking.

 

[tigerfan1961]

Good thread! Do we really need that big name player? Personally, I'm neither here nor there about it to be honest, although I confess that I got excited when Bennell was a big chance for us!!! As OP has set out, if we get another C Ellis with our first pick, are we really losing? I would say not.

Treloar has what, 3 years on young Corey? I think Corey is going to be a real gun on what I've seen, so I'd be very happy if we grab another one of his type this year, along with a small quick crumbing forward type, and just let them develop. C Ellis has the potential to be better than Treloar, just my opinion, and he is the type of classy inside mid we desperately need.

Have not seen much of the GWS youngster being touted as a target for us but if he is as decent as Milesy has been, and has a bit more leg speed, I'll be happy with just him and Yarran.

No need to melt, trading has not even begun yet, wait and see for me.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

I guess they both have there benefits; continously drafting quality kids will see us continue to steadily build and reach the finals consistently. Which is great, we all want to be up there for a while. But in terms of next year, we won't be finishing much higher than 5th.

I guess I'm more optimistic in terms of our current list. A doozy would instantly turn us into a contender but I'm not sure we even need one to finish top 4.

Freo went 17-5
West Coast 16-5-1
Hawthorn 16-6
Sydney 16-6
Richmond 15-7

That's 1 win off 4th and 2 wins off the minor premiership. Considering the age of Freo and Hawthorn (already lost Lake and Hale to retirement) and the general shittiness of Sydney, I see no reason why the current list couldn't make top 4 next year. Even North are bloody old now.

Replace the games played by Newman and Morris with games from Ellis and Yarran we're instantly stronger.

 

[tigerfan1961]

I guess I'm more optimistic in terms of our current list. A doozy would instantly turn us into a contender but I'm not sure we even need one to finish top 4.

Freo went 17-5
West Coast 16-5-1
Hawthorn 16-6
Sydney 16-6
Richmond 15-7

That's 1 win off 4th and 2 wins off the minor premiership. Considering the age of Freo and Hawthorn (already lost Lake and Hale to retirement) and the general shittiness of Sydney, I see no reason why the current list couldn't make top 4 next year. Even North are bloody old now.

Replace the games played by Newman and Morris with games from Ellis and Yarran we're instantly stronger.

Well said, was going to post a very similar reply. We 100% should have beaten Freo at the G this year, and lost to the Dogs and Dees early in the year when we were playing our worst footy. Win a couple of those and would have changed everything.

 

[Squibbs]

I guess I'm more optimistic in terms of our current list. A doozy would instantly turn us into a contender but I'm not sure we even need one to finish top 4.

Freo went 17-5
West Coast 16-5-1
Hawthorn 16-6
Sydney 16-6
Richmond 15-7

That's 1 win off 4th and 2 wins off the premiership. Considering the age of Freo and Hawthorn (already lost Lake and Hale to retirement) and the general shittiness of Sydney, I see no reason why the current list couldn't make top 4 next year. Even North are bloody old now.

Replace the games played by Newman and Morris with games from Ellis and Yarran we're instantly stronger.

Yeah I can definitely agree with that Baz. I know we are close, but we still lose games we shouldn't (Freo, Melbourne, Geelong etc.). I do believe there is improvement left in this group, it just depends on whether it is enough to win a flag. We can play some ordinary football and some amazing football, in 2015 we saw a more consistent brand but we still lost when it matters. I'll support the club always but if 2016 is a flop I'll be incredibly disappointed.

 

[SteveRFC]

All the bitching any crying about now getting a big name player has actually turned me off coming to Bigfooty as much anymore. Good to see someone with common sense rather than a lot of the sooks on here.

Hopefully this thread stays on track. Doubtful tho

 

[RoaringTiger]

I agree we have done better with draft picks than doozys, but:
1. Doozys are so much more fun
2. Armitage who was our doozy last year would have helped this year (but I am glad we have got Ellis over the long term)

 

[Elton Johns Wig]

Doozy doozy doozy....all this talk of a doozy. Are we the only club infatuated with this?

Personally, this is how I see it. Win a final. Heck, win 2, win the whole damn thing. We still have a stigma attached to us which is a bit off putting from the outside looking in. Win an important game, kudos, respect goes up, we become more attractive.

From the inside looking out we sit here and wonder why we are not a destination club. Everything looks in place and on the up. WE know that, but THEY need to SEE it.

I hate to go all Kevin Costner on you all, but.....

BUILD IT, AND THEY WILL COME

#gotiges

 

[cairo tiger]

My q is simple why don't players want to come to us? We have missed on Hannebery Shiel trelOr aish red dan danger etc? Why

 

[Metapod]

To be honest, the only player I was ever SUPER pissed about not landing is Shiel - bloke is a future Judd and proved it with his form early on this year. Little bugged we are missing out on Trelor as well because I rate him highly. Also, Adams >> Lennon. As for the rest - I think we've done well in the draft.

My one concern/burning question though: Where is this 750k going that we were throwing at Hartlett/Trelor? I HATE this idea of a war chest. Look at all of the top contenders - ALL of them have a tight salary cap, and that's how it should be! I think it's ridiculous we have this massive amount of money just going to waste, year after year after year after year.

 

[SabreTooth]

I think people are ignoring history if they think 1 superstar = a premiership. A doozy may help us bridge the gap on other teams and that will definitely help but it could also backfire. The Urban dictionary has some funny definitions of what a "doozy" is. A lot are negative.

I'm not concerned about no Doozy. As pointed out in this thread had a couple of things gone our way we would have finished top 4. So our list is already good enough. So no doozy = no problem. I will be concerned though if we don't improve our list at the same rate as other teams. We need to do this to at least maintain where we are.

While I have faith in getting at good player for pick 12 - I also think the draft is important for sustained long term success whereas an established A grader (aka Doozy) has more immediate value for a push into the top 4 next year. But since we couldn't get a Doozy we should now be trying to upgrade our bottom 6 or recruiting for specific needs to improve our current list. Personally I would have preferred that from the start.

The focus on getting a high profile recruit seems to have distracted from this (a negative of doozies). Footy is a team game so the old cliche that a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link seems right to me. We already have elite players in our team and don't need every player to be elite but we do need to get the bottom 6 closer to the top 6. I look at Hawthorn who have proven success and it's not all Doozies - but there's hardly a weak link either. It's a relatively even team of skilled players.

Will be happy with Yarran if they use him as a small forward which seems to be a unanimously agreed need. From memory Gale mentioned this in his interview on the JDM stream. "If" he comes good at Richmond that's a big tick. So that's a risk worth taking that could pay off. Don't think using him as a HB adds as much value in terms of addressing a need.

Don't really see how Townsend will get a game. Seems to add depth only. Who goes out if he comes in? We already have CEllis, Menadue and a few others waiting to come in. Add Lennon (hopefully) getting a game every week and not to mention some kpp like McBean, Elton, McKenzie trying to break in to the team. Not much room for Townsend but hope I'm wrong.

Being a long time Tiger supporter I won't go home early, even if it's freezing cold, p*ssing rain and we're 10 goals behind in the last quarter. Trade week will probably throw up a few unexpected options. Players deciding late to ask for a move, clubs putting up someone to get another deal done, talks breaking down, a smokey, etc. RFC needs to be ready to pounce on those if they happen. Seems unlikely at this stage though.

So no I don't think we need a Doozy and yes I think we can still make top 4 with our list. But now we really should be trying to upgrade our bottom 6. At this stage if we only get Yarran and Townsend I think we will lose ground against other teams and that makes it harder.

 

[Stitch]

Getting Yarran last year(his 2nd best season) would've surely been considered a doozy, what's changed? Not playing AFL and avoiding the risk of injury is perfect for us (like Henderson for Geelong) and it also lowers his value. Happy with getting just Yarran and keeping our first. Club said we want a half back flanker and inside midfielder. Our first could get us one of Mathieson, Oliver or Dunkley who are ready to go and should be better than Townsend in the long run. AND we still have a fit n firing Conca to come back into the midfield rotation along with C.Ellis

 

[tigerninja]

Doozy's come if you're a real premiership threat, we haven't been one yet.

 

[VaultWanderer]

Callum Ah Chee Enough said

 

[johnno77]

By simply going to the draft every year, we will tread water. I still think we're a good chance of top 4 next year but we need to be aggressive in the off season. Just not Crazy Vossy aggressive. The proof is before our eyes with what Hawthorn keep dishing up with numerous recruits from other clubs that haven't cost them the farm.

We can crap on all we like about how we beat 3 of the top 4 teams during the season but we haven't played any of them under finals pressure. That's a whole new ball game and we must get better faster.

 

[partycorolla]

Don't over pay just because other teams are unless we are convinced they are the one we want.

I haven't been concerned about any of the guys we haven't got up until now. The fact that we are having a crack at them is what is important to me. We are targeting players we need (like Armitage, Shiel etc) but we haven't got them yet probably because we won't pay stupid prices. Out top 6 isn't usually the problem, it's our bottom 8....

I would still want us to go after Treloar (offer 2 1st rounders 2015 and 2016) and at least make the Pies pay through the nose but if we don't get him and we think Townsend can help, then I'm all for that. Add Yarran for our 2nd or the 2nd from the Lions for Astbury (maybe?) and that's fair. Sign Lennon up though.... no point letting young talent walk out the door. We are flushed for cash, so give him an extra 50k a year and move on (it won't be what he is being offered elsewhere and it never will be).

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

don't trust FJ , but don't want us to sell first rounders

 

[Craze]

I think our three consecutive elimination final losses is an important factor to consider, and therefore I'm leaning towards needing to get active in drafting quality players.

That's why I would have loved Bennell - a guy who could potentially turn it on in a final and make an immediate difference, unencumbered by demons of the past. I think the top 4 tilt and push for a flag needs to happen while Deledio is still in his 20s, personally. Still hoping for something big next week, we've got to start taking a few more risks as a club.

I'll tell you what I dread next year - finishing top 4 and then going out in straight sets. That would just about do me in.

 

[theyellowsash]

Well, at least the draft actually exists

 

[SplintWhisky]

All talk of doozys vs the draft is all valid but what I really think is that we need to get our headspace right. Our players need to minimise the gulf between our best and our worst. Cotchin and Lids need to get a hardness to their game and be willing to take the game on. The type of player I really want is the type of player (or even coach who can create this) who can drag our side over the line. One that, when it isnt going his way, can stand up and work through it

 

[Infamy]

Its all about the net result of the entire trade period for me. I was happy to land a gun for this and next years first round picks, however I also don't want us trading just for the sake of it and overpaying just because we want to take a shortcut. As long as we get Yarran for our 2nd rounder and maybe steak knives and don't lose Lennon then I'd consider that a decent result, especially if we can also get someone like Townsend or Colledge for a 3rd/4th round pick to fill a need.
Pick 12 should have nothing to do with the Yarran trade, not even a downgrade to 20, I'll be very angry if we do that and would rather we just walk away from the trade and wait until next year. We are much more likely to get a the player we want with 12 than we are with 20.

What then needs to happen is the pressure needs to be put on the playing group to win a final or two and make us a destination club that make guns want to come to us when they see we are on the verge of a successful era. Put a huge offer on the table for Ollie Wines who is out of contract next year to make sure he doesn't extend his contract anytime soon, we all know that Port's salary cap is tight and we need to make the most of that before the new TV deal kicks in and the salary cap increases. Goldstein will be out of contract as a free agent at the end of next year too, so perhaps make a play for him to replace Maric, he may see that the Norf list is about to crash with all the senior citizens on their list. Can you imagine how well we'd be setup if we make a prelim in 2016 and landed Wines & Goldstein in the offseason?

 

[tigerdan]

The whole doozy concept is a zero sum game.

Unless you get a Dangerfield scenario (wanting to move to a specific club), the only way you get a gun player is to pay for it. And then the same people getting bent out of shape about 'pass marks' for the trade period will be twisting off that we consequently have shit picks in the draft.

We played the game trading for name players in the past (Kane Johnson, Brown, etc) and we paid overs. There's a lesson to be learned in that.

Yarran doesn't fuss me either way and surely JOM has knees that are shot. I am happy to just trade any player who wants to leave us and back ourselves in the draft.