Drafting for Talls

[HK_Bulldog]

In the past few years, we have invested heavily into recruiting talls and in some cases, 'reaching' for them.

By reaching, I mean drafting them earlier than they've would've reasonably been expected to go everything being equal.

The ones that we appeared to be 'reaching' for were in

2002 - Tim Walsh
2007 - Jarryd Grant

In 2002, we missed out on Jarrad McVeigh or Andrew Mackie and in 2007, we missed out on Cyril Rioli. Would we have a better list and be a better team with McVeigh and Rioli instead of Walsh and Grant? I would say definately.

We need some tall forwards no doubt, but those two 'reaches' have hurt us.
Of course Grant could still be a player but kicking is hard to fix and Rioli is on track to be in the elite bracket in the AFL.

 

[chef]

You could do this with nearly every pick we have ever had. Our team needs KP players and Grant was best one available. Grant would have gone first round in his draft if we hadn't picked him and Melbourne would have taken him at pick four if Morton was not available according to Clayton and the Melbourne recruiter.

The reason why we don't have any KP players is because we have always taken best available, which is great for getting better players on your list but it also leaves massive holes on your list as our team shows(no KP forwards and lack of depth in rucks, small defenders and small forwards).

Sometimes you need to pick whats best for team needs rather than best available.

 

[Power_Forward]

I wouldn't say it's a case of reaching, more of a case that Scott Clayton is completely inept at drafting key position players, and forwards in particular. In 15 years recruiting for Brisbane and the Bulldogs, Daniel Bradshaw is the only KPF he's ever successfully drafted.

 

[2691617]

On the face of it Rioli is definitely going to be an elite player so yes in hindsight it is easy to say however it's not to say Grant will not be a long term KPP, we just dont know to what degree yet but he definitely needs a fair go and time

 

[The Coon Dog]

With the wisdom of hindsight, nobody would ever make a mistake.

What about some of our early picks that weren't talls; Sam Power, Jordan McMahon, Farren Ray & Cameron Faulkner?

 

[2691617]

Exactly Coon Dog, every side probably has the same story of wins and losses at the draft table and before Clayton is bagged again hwat about Hill at 60 odd ??

 

[stefoid]

geez, cut grant some slack. give him a chance to settle.

every chance he could be an elite key forward, which trumps an elite midfielder, surely?

as for welsh vs. mcveigh - meh, I think is the word they use.

 

[Dazb86]

I think Grant will be very handy in the years to come. Far too early to judge on this one. Has the right tools to be a key forward. Pace off the mark, Height, and a great mark contested and uncontested. Needs to work on a few things like Weight/Strength, Endurance and probably kicking. But for the most part those things can be achieved with solid pre seasons of which he hasn't really had yet. Give it some time I have a good feeling he'll come good given time to develop.

 

[murphy2bedabest]

I wouldn't say it's a case of reaching, more of a case that Scott Clayton is completely inept at drafting key position players, and forwards in particular. In 15 years recruiting for Brisbane and the Bulldogs, Daniel Bradshaw is the only KPF he's ever successfully drafted.

Show me any one that is any good at drafting KKP, just like the KPP's that they are drafting they can be hit and miss.

also take away the clubs that have had 2 top 5 DP's in good years ie Saints with Riewoldt and Kossie and Hawks with Roughead and Buddy. The same can be said for Father/Son picks Brown, Hawkins and even Cordy.

if you really look at it Claytons stats at Drafing KPPs would be about par on any other.

we were unlucky with Walsh and his Injurys over his time, Brian Lake was Drafted @ 71? as a KPF but played @ FB by Wallace

 

[INSIGHT]

This argument comes up every season. I must say Iwe can go back to 1990's where we had short backline with kretuik often playing key position and had Granty as our tall savior forward.
We may have improved our tall stocks with Brain fade Brian (not really having going at him just seems to have at least one a game) and Williams in defence. However it seems like an eternity since we have a top key forward. Someone is to blame it has been to long. Maybe Grant will be the answer but doubt it will this season and I must say a would have preferred to pick Taylor Walker at pick 65 atm.

We have not won flag since 54 and we need a key position forward to really challenge for a flag looks like it will not be this season unless we can do it without a quality tall forward.

 

[Power_Forward]

Show me any one that is any good at drafting KKP, just like the KPP's that they are drafting they can be hit and miss.

also take away the clubs that have had 2 top 5 DP's in good years ie Saints with Riewoldt and Kossie and Hawks with Roughead and Buddy. The same can be said for Father/Son picks Brown, Hawkins and even Cordy.

if you really look at it Claytons stats at Drafing KPPs would be about par on any other.

we were unlucky with Walsh and his Injurys over his time, Brian Lake was Drafted @ 71? as a KPF but played @ FB by Wallace

You're not serious are you? 10 years at the Bulldogs and not 1 kPF, 1 in 6 years at Brisbane, where do you get he's as good as anyone else?

1 KPF in 16 years recruiting is appalling. I'm happy to exclude father and son selections if you think it helps your case.

Every KPF in the AFL at the moment, and many that have come and gone in the last 16 years were drafted during Clayton's career. He got 1 correct, ONE!! Lloyd, Lucas, Riewoldt, Pavlich, Tredrea, Fevola, Franklin, Roughead, Mooney, Hall, Anthony, Q Lynch, Petrie to name a few were all drafted during his time.

You mention Lake (a great get at 76) who is now a star KP in defence, if you want to use him as an example Clayton’s record gets even worse. If you look at KP players across the whole ground, other than Lake, the Bulldogs have only Minson and Williams in their regular team that were drafted by Clayton. Discounting the last 2 years (it would be unfair to judge a 20 year old who hasn’t had time to develop) Clayton has picked 3 KP players good enough to get a regular game in 8 years! Skipper, Bassett, James, Baird, Wells, Wight, Walsh, Rawlings, Morgan, Bartlet, Wiggins, Bowden, O’shea, were all KP players drafted during Clayton’s time at the Bulldogs and not one of them secured a regular spot, most have been delisted.

We’ve had 11 first round picks during that time, and twice have had 2 picks in the first 6 selections. What more could you possibly ask for as a recruiter? I wish you were my boss if that’s the level of success you expect from a highly paid executive.

The simple fact is Clayton had a great eye for a mid-fielder but realistically we were not going to build a team capable of winning regular premierships with Scott Clayton as our chief recruiter.

 

[chef]

This argument comes up every season. I must say Iwe can go back to 1990's where we had short backline with kretuik often playing key position and had Granty as our tall savior forward.
We may have improved our tall stocks with Brain fade Brian (not really having going at him just seems to have at least one a game) and Williams in defence. However it seems like an eternity since we have a top key forward. Someone is to blame it has been to long. Maybe Grant will be the answer but doubt it will this season and I must say a would have preferred to pick Taylor Walker at pick 65 atm.

We have not won flag since 54 and we need a key position forward to really challenge for a flag looks like it will not be this season unless we can do it without a quality tall forward.

Taylor Walker was never an option as he was signed by the Crows on a NSW scholarship a number of years before he was drafted.

 

[chef]

I agree that Clayton does start to struggle once a player is over 190cm's and hopefully his last two drafts can rectify this.

 

[HK_Bulldog]

I'm not having a go at Grant. It's only his second year and he's coming along okay.
I'm just so disappointed at missing out on Rioli. That kid is the complete package. I was just wondering whether Clayton genuinely thought Grant was a better player than Rioli or whether he was 'reaching' for a KPP before their time.

Oh Well, maybe Grant will come on in a big way so I won't miss Rioli

 

[chef]

I'm not having a go at Grant. It's only his second year and he's coming along okay.
I'm just so disappointed at missing out on Rioli. That kid is the complete package. I was just wondering whether Clayton genuinely thought Grant was a better player than Rioli or whether he was 'reaching' for a KPP before their time.

Oh Well, maybe Grant will come on in a big way so I won't miss Rioli

I think Clayton would have had pressure put on him to take the best key forward available with our first pick. Cyril Rioli went at pick 12 so he wasn't expected to be this good by a lot of recruiters.

 

[Bubba_5]

I'd still take Grant oer Rioli - Grant just has exceptional marking forward talents and Rioli was always going to impress in the first couple of seasons but might not eber be an elite player.

 

[bulldogsman]

I think Clayton would have had pressure put on him to take the best key forward available with our first pick. Cyril Rioli went at pick 12 so he wasn't expected to be this good by a lot of recruiters.

It was either Rance or Grant according to Clayton and it's always a risk picking aboriginal players. Tambling, Sampi, Jetta, Egan, Oakley-Nicholls and you could even say Varcoe are all first round draft picks from memory who haven't lived up to the hype. Wells could also be much better and I fear Yarren is too lazy to reach his potential as well.

 

[Zeno The Great]

I agree i think we need to re-assess this topic in 2 years time, but i will say the early signs are a little bit of a worry for me, Grant should be doing better at VFL level for his high draft pick status, but lets give him some time.

Hopefully cordy can come on, if he is half as good as they say he will be we will be laughing.

I would also say it has been great to Williams playing this year it settles our back line much more, would be nice if he got a little bit more of the ball though!

 

[chef]

It was either Rance or Grant according to Clayton and it's always a risk picking aboriginal players. Tambling, Sampi, Jetta, Egan, Oakley-Nicholls and you could even say Varcoe are all first round draft picks from memory who haven't lived up to the hype. Wells could also be much better and I fear Yarren is too lazy to reach his potential as well.

As good as Rance looks, I'm glad Richmond took him at 18 and we ended up with Ward at 19.

 

[The Coon Dog]

It was either Rance or Grant according to Clayton

No, it was Grant or Lachie Henderson, taken at pick 8 from memory by Brisbane.

 

[Zeno The Great]

At least he has been a spud so far

 

[comrade]

At least he has been a spud so far

How so?

He had his first season completely wiped out by OP, so essentially he is about a year behind in his development versus other players from his draft.

Yet, despite that, he has still managed to play a game for a Bulldogs team that is currently sitting 3rd on the ladder.

He definitely still has a long way, but he is no spud.

 

[The Boy From Brasil]

Regarding the Grant, Callan Ward draft, here is the relevant paragrpahs from Emma Quayles book,"The Draft"

The western bulldogs had pick number 5. Everyone knew who they were planning to pick and Scott Clayton didn't mind: he'd set his heart on Dandenong forward Jarrod Grant early in the year and taken coach Rodney Eade to meet him in August. He ranked him alongside Matthew Kreuzer, Trent Cotchin and Cale Morton because he had height, speed and quick hands, could kick goals and had a sharp, fast brain. Some had criticised his body language but that didn't worry the Bulldogs;people had been just as harsh on Andrej Everitt, their first round choice in 2006, and he was soon to inherit Chris Grant's No 3 guernsey.

"They don't all fit beautifully in the box" Clayton said. "They're not all the same and some of the TAC clubs can be hard on them if they don't all fit in the box. He can play footy and that's why we picked him. On talent, I reckon he's right up there with the other three".

Clayton was pleased that West Coast opted for Masten over Morton, believing Melbourne would have picked Grant had Morton been gone. "They even said to us on draft day, that if Morton doesn't get through, you boys are going to be very dissappointed" he said. "We were lucky the Eagles got pick 3. The eagles getting that pick and steering away from Morton enabled us to get Grant, basically".

The Bulldogs had settled on Grant ahead of West Australian defender Alex Rance and got a big shock when Rance made it all the way to number 18 - one more spot and the Bulldogs would have got both. Insteady, they happily picked Callan Ward who, as dozens of boys were drafted to new states, got to join the club around the corner.

 

[The Coon Dog]

How so?

He had his first season completely wiped out by OP, so essentially he is about a year behind in his development versus other players from his draft.

Yet, despite that, he has still managed to play a game for a Bulldogs team that is currently sitting 3rd on the ladder.

He definitely still has a long way, but he is no spud.

I think he might have been referring to Lachie Henderson.

 

[comrade]

I think he might have been referring to Lachie Henderson.

That would make more sense and I apologise if that's the case Hangzhou Dogs.

Though I'm not sure you can class a KPP as a dud just because they're yet to have an impact within 2 years of being on an AFL list.