Drafts, Free Agency, Futures and Leave Your Emotion at the Door

montybrasco

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Edited...

The AFL like most organisations are never sure of the unintended consequences of any decisions in a fee market. They replicated a draft system from the US knowing it - in different forms - can help equalize the competition. O.K., change it to one pick per team per round and if it doesn't work just let the bottom teams keep losing and ... other people know better than me.

Free agency is coming and just how many star players are going to want to come to Melbourne in the future? Won't be a problem... plenty of fan-enthusiasm see the day through, I guess.

Now to just sit back and cheer some late-season wins and hold my head high as we win possibly five or even six wins which will be just so exciting for the start of next year.

Apologies to everybody in regards to rambling original post. I forgot most people hate US sport, no one interested in origans of the AFL’s thinking.
 

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Colin Grigson

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#4
This post has given me a serious migraine tbh. Not because it is a brilliant and indispensable dissertation on 'drafts, free agency and the like', but because it is just a whole lot of disjointed verbal diarrhoea.

Most people would probably be put off even responding due to the length of the post, but i'm a sucker for punishment :D. Although I must admit, I stopped reading when you went into a Gettysburg style address on American sports...I just skipped to the concise summary.

Oh yeah, Luke Hodge wasn't a PP by the way in 2001. Freo traded pick 1 to the Hawks for McPharlin and Croad, so that was factually incorrect (but i'm sure you already knew that ;)..)

I'm just blown away by the suggestion you make that the AFL should retain the PP system because 'poor' Victorian clubs like us wouldn't survive without it. Thats interesting....

As far as i'm concerned the wealthier clubs who can invest more money into recruiting will do better than the rest. Collingwood and Adelaide are obvious examples. Adelaide have few, if any top 5 draft picks in their senior list, and not too many 1st rounders, yet they consistently play finals football.

To say that the drafting of players after the 1st few standouts, as you do, as 'guesswork' is laughable considering how well the wealthier teams, and the teams that invest a lot in recruiting, have done at drafting in recent times. They get value out of their picks because they invest more time and resources into uncovering talent.

The draft system as it stands rewards mediocrity on the football field and mediocrity in the board room. (No doubt the 1st few picks are generally exceptional, despite the fact that there are often many quality players drafted later on). There is absolutely no reason why clubs should be rewarded for poor management and performance. I still support a lottery style system that is skewed towards the lesser performing teams, but not a system as you seem to want, which props up and advances the cause of clubs who are poorly managed.

Its kinda hard to figure out exactly what you were trying to say because you constantly went on tangents throughout the post in a very disjointed fashion.

I haven't seen you post before, but I get the impression that you're trying to hide behind a veneer of faux-intellectualism.

I'm not impressed by big words and obscure offhand allusions TBH.

Give me the crux of the point you're trying to make in a simple point-by-point format that is logically ordered.

There are other things you said I really didn't agree with, but I seriously can't be bothered responding to them all one-by-one because i've got a headache now...
 
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Its kinda hard to figure out exactly what you were trying to say because you constantly went on tangents throughout the post in a very disjointed fashion.

I haven't seen you post before, but I get the impression that you're trying to hide behind a veneer of faux-intellectualism.

I'm not impressed by big words and obscure offhand allusions TBH.

Give me the crux of the point you're trying to make in a simple point-by-point format that is logically ordered.
Faux-intellectualism, maybe he is just smarter than us. I will give him credit that he knows American sport much better then I do & better then most of us I would say. Either that or he has just ripped it off another forum.

You make some good points at times CG but the more I see you post the more you seem to insult the posts of others rather then add to a conversation.

Maybe it is you who is trying to hide behind a façade of animosity by trying Discombobulate others by trivial rants (don’t you love the big words?).

True it could have been about 10 paragraphs shorter but he was trying to illustrate & draw comparisons to situations similar to what Melbourne face.

From how I understand it (yes I read the rest of the post) he is trying to draw a link between drafting players who will not only perform for the club but also draw supporters to the club, be a marketing force & the importance of having a pick that can lead to that eventual position.

He also seems to point to the lottery method of drafting as - to use Midnight Oil songs lyrics to explain “the rich getting richer, the poor get the picture”. When a lottery, although weighted against the successful teams turns out in their favour it reinforces both the success & failure of clubs.

What I would really like to know is how long did it take him to put together? & If I’m not on the mark with how I am interpreting the post what the hell does it mean?
 

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#8
Couldn't you have posted a conclusion outlining your main points.

I got tired after the first few paragraphs. I am amazed you found time to write it.

Any free agency must come with some finacial compensation - a club who has spent considerable resources on player development should be rewarded in some form. I like a % value of the contract on offer x the years they have been on the previous clubs squad.

We could flog of Bruce and give it to debt demolition.
 
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#9
Faux-intellectualism, maybe he is just smarter than us. I will give him credit that he knows American sport much better then I do & better then most of us I would say. Either that or he has just ripped it off another forum.

You make some good points at times CG but the more I see you post the more you seem to insult the posts of others rather then add to a conversation.

Maybe it is you who is trying to hide behind a façade of animosity by trying Discombobulate others by trivial rants (don’t you love the big words?).

True it could have been about 10 paragraphs shorter but he was trying to illustrate & draw comparisons to situations similar to what Melbourne face.

From how I understand it (yes I read the rest of the post) he is trying to draw a link between drafting players who will not only perform for the club but also draw supporters to the club, be a marketing force & the importance of having a pick that can lead to that eventual position.

He also seems to point to the lottery method of drafting as - to use Midnight Oil songs lyrics to explain “the rich getting richer, the poor get the picture”. When a lottery, although weighted against the successful teams turns out in their favour it reinforces both the success & failure of clubs.

What I would really like to know is how long did it take him to put together? & If I’m not on the mark with how I am interpreting the post what the hell does it mean?
I got the same feeling about the post.

Lottery is stupid, and not always the worst get the advantages, as is mentioned some there is still a chance of well performed teams to get picks.

Yes we all know the PP system is flawed. Much like Uni. exams. (i.e. put you in a room full of nervous folks and get you under pressure to regurgitate various facts on a topic, not really a real life situation but anyway that's a different story....) . Ideally the AFL needs to update it? But to what? The system and thus is imperfect and will always be ways of manipulating it. Whether it be after round 15 or 22.

After round 15 , teams might of played say freo away or brisbane away with key personal out, and be thus disadvanaged, while they then play at them at home with key players in. It will always be flawed.

With the draw i would like to see a fair system eg. a rotational so if team X plays 6 intersate games 1 year another team plays that many, without the emphisis on $$ but fairness. Remembering the point of the competion was originally see the best against the best, not lets rape the **** out of supporters wallets and time.

Perhaps a system where everyone plays everyone from rounds 1-15. Then the ladder is dived into 4. i.e 1-4,5-8,9-12,13-16. so eg. a team who is 16th would play 2 against 13-16 (i.e their own divison) ,2 against 12-9, 2 against 8-5 and 1 against 1-4.

Perhaps even a united nations approach where teams are classed. Possible contenders, just abouts , slipping/rising from the bottom, ****ing hopeless?

No matter what system is used there will be error. People/teams will always cheat(list manage). The draft introduced this as pre draft teams played for pride, nobody cares that much about the wooden spoon as the get pick 1.

I have no problem with saying to people yeah we suck but we will get pick 1 (Tom Scully). But without Pick 1 i think it takes away our compensation. Like paying folk in country towns less money, if they were relocated.

We really need :

  1. The AFL to fix the system and the draw. As Collingwood etc... get great fixtures and other teams get games noone wants to see. And that are designed to keep you down untill the AFL deems it fair. I mean how was it fair for the NAB they scheduled the Premiers (Hawks) against us??
  2. Tom Scully.
  3. Not to win 2 meaningless games. I recall Carltank getting infront against Collingwood in round 18 being 10 points up 3 mins to go, only to lose. With key players benched no doubt. Surely we can do this.
  4. Rationale thinking, i recon we can actually win 3 or 4 more, but we might only win 2.
  5. People to reconnise that the last 2 games were not played at the same level as better performed teams.
  6. And someone who will actually read my rant.
 

Colin Grigson

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#10
Faux-intellectualism, maybe he is just smarter than us. I will give him credit that he knows American sport much better then I do & better then most of us I would say. Either that or he has just ripped it off another forum.

You make some good points at times CG but the more I see you post the more you seem to insult the posts of others rather then add to a conversation.

Maybe it is you who is trying to hide behind a façade of animosity by trying Discombobulate others by trivial rants (don’t you love the big words?).

True it could have been about 10 paragraphs shorter but he was trying to illustrate & draw comparisons to situations similar to what Melbourne face.

From how I understand it (yes I read the rest of the post) he is trying to draw a link between drafting players who will not only perform for the club but also draw supporters to the club, be a marketing force & the importance of having a pick that can lead to that eventual position.

He also seems to point to the lottery method of drafting as - to use Midnight Oil songs lyrics to explain “the rich getting richer, the poor get the picture”. When a lottery, although weighted against the successful teams turns out in their favour it reinforces both the success & failure of clubs.

What I would really like to know is how long did it take him to put together? & If I’m not on the mark with how I am interpreting the post what the hell does it mean?
Yeah, well i'll grant you the 1st point, he's clearly smarter than me...

Huh? i've insulted other posters? If I have, its caused they've 'deserved' it ;):D...

I dunno if you read my posts but i do try to give thoughtful responses where they're due, particularly to those who put some thought into what they're saying (and there are quite a few...)

but seriously, when you're faced with gross stupidity, i'd just rather revert to being childish cause its a waste of time trying to reason with some of the knuckleheads who post here. So, by all means quote things i've said to others, but put them in context to what i've responded to..

i actually think I add something to the 'conversation' as opposed to 70-80% of the rubbish thats posted here.

And yes, you're right, i do love 'the big words' and hide behind a 'wall' of animosity. whatever the hell that means...are you his P.R. consultant or something?

Sorry but i just thought the post was the biggest wankfest since Pink Floyd's 'The Wall', but clearly i'm just too un-intelligent to appreciate the true genius of this exercise in 'post-modernist' football analysis :thumbsu:

So my sincerest apologies CA...


Oh yeah, like the Midnight Oil quote too. "Rich getting richer, poor getting poorer"..

I love Garrett, you'll never meet a more principled man. "You want your Uranium mine?? You got it!!" haha...
 
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#11
I think Colin, contributes to the overall discussion. While his posts are often against the grain, its just another opinion, whether it be right or wrong . Its an opinion.
 

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Colin Grigson

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#14
No problems. NOW READ MY POST! haha

You're talking about the fixture there, which is a different issue. Ideally, you'd have a system like in Premier League Soccer where every side plays every other side twice (both away and at home).

Obviously with 16 teams its more difficult, considering that due to the physical demands of the game, 30 games in a season is not viable. But that's a different issue, and i'm not sure how to solve that problem.

But I would say this, the AFL rewards teams who draw crowds by giving them the prime time slots & the best fixtures - and it makes sense. The AFL can only maximize its advertising deals and TV rights deals by providing as large an audience as possible. That money goes back to the 16 clubs too..

That's why Collingwood, Hawthorn and Essendon get the best deal. Its up to us to pick our collective asses up off the floor and do something about it. Every time we've played in the prime time slot this year we've been pitiful, and supporters have not turned up to support us.

So why should the AFL give us a better deal with fixturing. As far as i'm concerned, we get what we deserve there.

From the draft side of things, I have absolutely no idea why we deserve to be 'compensated' for our failure to get things right (or any other club for that matter), and how this is linked to the 'professionalism' of the game as the OP suggest. That baffles me...

We should have a lottery system IMO. Because not only are the better, well run clubs who play finals football every year being punished by the current system, but also the 'middle-of-the-road' clubs like North Melbourne, who generally exceed their potential are being punished. Its a system that encourages failure and bad management.

You're actually better off running your club into huge financial debt, recruiting horrendously & bottoming out for 5 or so years.

Look at Carlton. They'll be contending for a flag in the next 3 years because of all the draft concessions they've been granted due to their incompetence. St.Kilda may win a flag this year and they've benefited similarly. How is that fair to the clubs that do the right thing, and run their organizations well??

A lottery system that is statistically geared to favour the bottom finishing club should be introduced (i.e. the statistical probability of your number coming up in the lottery should be related to the clubs respective ladder position so that 16th has most chance of being drawn and 1st least, etc..), and the PP should be abolished. That's my opinion..
 
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Yeah, well i'll grant you the 1st point, he's clearly smarter than me...

Maybe……

Huh? i've insulted other posters? If I have, its caused they've 'deserved' it ...

It may sometimes be in jest but there’s a line between jest & a blatant insult.

I dunno if you read my posts but i do try to give thoughtful responses where they're due, particularly to those who put some thought into what they're saying (and there are quite a few...)

I’ll give you that.

but seriously, when you're faced with gross stupidity, i'd just rather revert to being childish cause its a waste of time trying to reason with some of the knuckleheads who post here. So, by all means quote things i've said to others, but put them in context to what i've responded to..

Good way to get your post count up.

i actually think I add something to the 'conversation' as opposed to 70-80% of the rubbish thats posted here.

I agree, as I said you make some good insightful posts.

And yes, you're right, i do love 'the big words' and hide behind a 'wall' of animosity. whatever the hell that means...are you his P.R. consultant or something?

You seem to like the word veneer so use that instead of wall.

Sorry but i just thought the post was the biggest wankfest since Pink Floyd's 'The Wall', but clearly i'm just too un-intelligent to appreciate the true genius of this exercise in 'post-modernist' football analysis

That’s just a troll paragraph but I have to ask do you really hate the wall album? Please explain as now you seem to be another who can expound us with proclamations of pivotal point judgments

So my sincerest apologies CA...

Love you too big fella.


Oh yeah, like the Midnight Oil quote too. "Rich getting richer, poor getting poorer"..

I love Garrett, you'll never meet a more principled man. "You want your Uranium mine?? You got it!!" haha

I disliked him before he became a politician & I don’t like him now but the line suited my post.

I just think it would be good to stick together on the Melbourne board although we can differ on opinion & destroy the supporters of other teams in Bay13.
 

Colin Grigson

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#16
That’s just a troll paragraph but I have to ask do you really hate the wall album? Please explain as now you seem to be another who can expound us with proclamations of pivotal point judgments
hahaha.. Pink Floyd suck :D Syd Barrett was OK though..Its really just 'music to knit scarves by'...I've got life in the old body yet, so..

I honestly am not looking for trouble, honestly..:D Its just that the OP precluded any opportunity for me or anyone else to reply as he completely dismissed anyone who didn't agree with what he said. So what can you say?
 
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hahaha.. Pink Floyd suck :D Syd Barrett was OK though..Its really just 'music to knit scarves by'...I've got life in the old body yet, so..

I honestly am not looking for trouble, honestly..:D Its just that the OP precluded any opportunity for me or anyone else to reply as he completely dismissed anyone who didn't agree with what he said. So what can you say?
1) Can we at least agree that the wall is a good song? :D

TBH I'm not a big fan either but they have some good songs.

2) Not looking for trouble :confused: but I do agree that when someone goes in the complete other direction to me I tend to feel the same.

It's now an official love fest. :p

So can we at least concur that this (the OP) may be the longest post in the entire history of mankind?

A million monkeys on a million typewriters in a million years could not have made a longer post.

:thumbsu:
 

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#18
1) Can we at least agree that the wall is a good song? :D

TBH I'm not a big fan either but they have some good songs.

2) Not looking for trouble :confused: but I do agree that when someone goes in the complete other direction to me I tend to feel the same.

It's now an official love fest. :p

So can we at least concur that this (the OP) may be the longest post in the entire history of mankind?

A million monkeys on a million typewriters in a million years could not have made a longer post.

:thumbsu:
Yeah, don't like the Wall song tbh.. But, there's this song called 'Several Small Species of Furry Animals gathered together in a cave and grooving with a pict'?? (what tha??) that was written by Roger Waters in the late 60s that was pretty cool. Very weird song that (if you could even call it a song??...) Ridiculous title though... :D

Yeah, we can concur on the fact the the OP went on longer than the intro sequence to 'Shine On You Crazy Diamond'...:D:D
 

givemethecure

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#19
I read the whole thing initially and found it very difficult to follow the tangents. The edit was fine, and I have no idea if this proves or disproves anything, but here's how the NBA system works, for anyone that's interested (feel free to pick apart here, I'm a big b/ball fan and like to think I know enough about it to post here, but I could be wrong on certain points):



The thing that makes the NBA draft lottery system work is that the 14 teams that miss out on the playoffs (16 make the first round of playoffs which puts the NBA in the curious position of having teams that lose more than they win in the regular season making the playoffs more often than you'd think) get a weighted entry into the Draft Lottery. What makes it work is that Boston could tank so badly in 06-07 and try really really hard to get the #1 pick, and then miss out entirely and get pick #5 (However, they did manage to get two future hall-of-fame players in the biggest lop-sided trade in NBA history later that off-season due to a little help from completely incompetent General managers). That alone creates a marked disincentive to tank properly. This may not translate to the AFL so easily, but it can't be too far off the mark with a few slight changes here and there - 20 lottery balls to the bottom team, 16 to 15th, 12 to 14th or something that's better than that in terms of ratio and sliding scales because my maths is flawed. The other thing about the NBA draft is that it is only open to people over the age of 19 years old (or have completed ther high schooling), and generally limited to players fresh out of college basketball or international professional leagues - players who already play for an NBA team whose contract is up have nothing to do with any draft, preseason or otherwise can not declare themselves for any draft in the NBA.

My other point is this: why should a team need to 'draft' and 'trade' for someone like Judd when they are out of contract? When a team in the NBA trades for someone, the trade has to involve at least two players that are *currently* under contract being traded for each other, and the trade has to be of equal monetary value (+/- a few hundred grand --> piddling money in the NBA). To make the trade equitable, there may be more than one player traded for another, three or four teams maybe involved, cash considerations thrown in to keep teams under the salary cap, and conditional draft picks used too. What this essentially means is the trades are vetted by the NBA office, and as a general rule are relatively fair and equitable (although obviously not all the time).

Which is where free agency comes in - talent goes to the highest bidder - a great deal of talk in the NBA at the moment is next July when talents such as LeBron James and Dwyane Wade are unrestricted free agents and could end up playing anywhere in the league that can afford their salary demands (anywhere from $15-20 million per season). Obviously there are other considerations involved beyond the salary - LeBron wouldn't go play in Toronto just because they had enough money for him, but you get the idea. It does make it a little unfortunate from a fan point of view when a big name star leaves one team for another, but it's not that uncommon, and at least you'd have someone to boo when you played them. And it leaves all the rubbish about Visy jobs for your mum and spokesperson roles in the background (I also think that players salaries should be public knowledge IMO) and means that teams don't have to jump through a million loops to get the player they can afford who is currently out of contract with his original team. Why should West Coast have received any compensation for Judd leaving? He didn't want to play for West Coast any more, why should Carlton have to give up anything for him to sign with them? (Please don't take this as defence of the blues, it's just an example). It should leave West Coast with a nice big salary hole to shore up other players that might be out of contract in the future, or do their own big name signing of a Westralian wanting to go home

So my point is this: the NBA model is pretty good, not totally ideal for the AFL, but not terrible either. I'm not sure if I got that point across, but it's my lunch break and I can't be bothered to keep making points that will likely be confused and confusing.
 

Jab

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#23
I read the whole thing initially and found it very difficult to follow the tangents. The edit was fine, and I have no idea if this proves or disproves anything, but here's how the NBA system works, for anyone that's interested (feel free to pick apart here, I'm a big b/ball fan and like to think I know enough about it to post here, but I could be wrong on certain points):/quote]


Forgive me for posting on in your threads, but this post was fantastic! :thumbsu:

Thank you.
 

givemethecure

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#25
I read the whole thing initially and found it very difficult to follow the tangents. The edit was fine, and I have no idea if this proves or disproves anything, but here's how the NBA system works, for anyone that's interested (feel free to pick apart here, I'm a big b/ball fan and like to think I know enough about it to post here, but I could be wrong on certain points):/quote]


Forgive me for posting on in your threads, but this post was fantastic! :thumbsu:

Thank you.
ta mate.
 
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