Expansion Dreaming Out Loud: AFL’s Third WA Club (and Solving Gold Coast’s Issue)

[Carringbush2010]

My point stands. You claimed that "where the club goes is where the fans go."

Yeah I claimed that for clubs like Collingwood, Rich etc, bet your bottom dollar where the club goes the fans go. Not necessarily Fitzroy or North or St Kilda for example in saying that if Fitzroy had stayed in the AFL (we know that was not possible, no need to go into discussion on that one) you'd still have your those numbers probably more

 

[longdonkey]

Yeah I claimed that for clubs like Collingwood, Rich etc, bet your bottom dollar where the club goes the fans go. Not necessarily Fitzroy or North or St Kilda for example in saying that if Fitzroy had stayed in the AFL (we know that was not possible, no need to go into discussion on that one) you'd still have your those numbers probably more

If the AFL had seen Fitzroy as an integral part of the competition they could have bailed them out. It was probably not the best time to be in financial trouble though as Waverley was on it way out and the AFL had some big expenses coming up. Not enough supporters, too much debt and bad timing.

 

[BringBackTorps]

In 1981 Perth (898.9) was 33% the size of Melbourne (2722.8)
By 1986 Perth was 35% size of Melbourne
In 2016 Perth was 43% size of Melbourne
Generally, across cycles, in good times and in bad, Perth and WA have been faster growing that Melbourne and Victoria. The exception[BUT NOW THE NORM?] 14-17 is the period after the rapid acceleration of 05-12 experienced by Perth.

IF one places credence in the notoriously unreliable predictions of economists & demographers, then by 2050 Melb. will unfortunately have c.8,000,000 people -increasingly out ranking Perth in raw nos., & possibly even % increases.
Victoria's very diverse economy provides it, to some extent, some protections against world-wide economic fluctuations -an advantage that Perth, so reliant on mining (& subject to the"tyranny of distance") does not have.

Sadly, Melb. (already overcrowded/overstressed IMO) is competing primarily with Sydney for population growth.
Aust. is now attracting very large nos. of often wealthy Chinese, Indian & other Asian immigrants. Most of these Asian immigrants prefer to settle in cities that already have large kindred Asian communities, & have "elite"educational secondary & tertiary institutions. Melb. & Syd. are their favoured destinations.

The ABS is predicting Melb. will overtake Syd. in the next 20-25 years due to 5 reasons:-
. property prices, whilst ridiculously expensive in Melb.(median of c. $800,000), are still at least 20% cheaper than Syd.'s absurd median c.$1,000,000.
. cheaper new houses or vacant land can be bought MUCH CLOSER to the MELB. CBD than similar distanced housing in Syd.
. Syd.'s transport chaos/lengthy travel times make Melb. (which are also poor) appear attractive by comparison.
. Melb. regularly wins independent awards as "The World's Most Liveable City" -which is heavily promoted by Vic. Govt bodies to potential immigrants & tourists.
. Melb. is gaining most by net local migration from other States -Syd. is losing most.

Syd. is where majority of media orgs. are located, over 50% of advertising dollars are spent -& where c.50% of Aust.'s top 200 Listed ASX cos. have HQ's. Strategically, the AFL would prefer a team (if feasible) eventually in Syd.'s southern suburbs ie before Perth, an "owned" market.

The very big challenge for the AFL is to recruit these immigrants into AF followers/players. Only in the VAFA (especially Old Boys' Private School clubs) can it be said that AF is currently having reasonable success in recruiting good nos. of Asian-Australians as players.
MFC, RFC, & EFC have occasionally been promoting themselves to Asian communities.
MUCH more needs to be done.

 

[GreyCrow]

If the AFL had seen Fitzroy as an integral part of the competition they could have bailed them out. It was probably not the best time to be in financial trouble though as Waverley was on it way out and the AFL had some big expenses coming up. Not enough supporters, too much debt and bad timing.

While all those may have been in play , Fitzroys biggest issue was having Port in the background. Both their (Port) own desire to be in the comp and the AFLs desire to have them in as well. So yes bad timing

 

[Viceregal]

If the AFL had seen Fitzroy as an integral part of the competition they could have bailed them out. It was probably not the best time to be in financial trouble though as Waverley was on it way out and the AFL had some big expenses coming up. Not enough supporters, too much debt and bad timing.

I think you meant to type ... 'If they had seen Fitzroy as an integral part of the competition they would not have murdered them in cold blood with malice aforethought' ...

 

[The_Wookie]

No, thats no 'accident' of anything. That's VFL politics in action, its deliberate, its planned. Its expensive. Its why their are only 2 clubs in WA & none in Tas. So including SA, the job of those places is to be net providers of finances to help the AFL support the destitute old VFL clubs who have nearly always failed to make the grade year after year, & the AFLs expansion clubs who will be net consumers of AFL support for as far into the future as one could imagine.

which net finances do you think WA and SA contribute to the AFL? And why arent GWS and Gold Coast who are taking more moiney than any VFL club included? For that matter, you seem to ignore AFL largesse to the SA clubs and the SANFL prior to moving to Adelaide Oval.

 

[Roylion]

Yeah I claimed that for clubs like Collingwood, Rich etc, bet your bottom dollar where the club goes the fans go.

There's no doubt that if Collingwood / Richmond or any other current AFL club left the AFL and competed in a lower tier competition, they would lose fans. That's happened with the only club to have left the AFL (as I have already explained). Likewise if any Victorian club merged or relocated interstate there's little doubt that fans would go elsewhere.

Not necessarily Fitzroy or North or St Kilda for example in saying that if Fitzroy had stayed in the AFL (we know that was not possible, no need to go into discussion on that one) you'd still have your those numbers probably more

Well...yes. That's not my point, nor is that what we're discussing.

 

[Carringbush2010]

There's no doubt that if Collingwood / Richmond or any other current AFL club left the AFL and competed in a lower tier competition, they would lose fans.

Disagree; you'd find that 2nd tier comp would no longer be the 2nd tier comp, clubs like that the fans will follow and therefore would become the top attended comp

 

[Roylion]

Disagree; you'd find that 2nd tier comp would no longer be the 2nd tier comp, clubs like that the fans will follow and therefore would become the top attended comp

If Collingwood went back to the VFL to play against the likes of Box Hill, Port Melbourne, Williamstown and Frankston etc. and the national competition continued with traditional rivals of the likes of Carlton, Richmond and Essendon still competing, of course Collingwood would lose fans.

There would be far less media exposure, those players playing in Collingwood's senior team would be second tier players and while the overall club history would be retained by the club (as Fitzroy has retained their VFA, VFL, AFL history), it would take time to forge a new VFL (VFA) history that the remaining fans cared about. And that's even if Collingwood counted its 1896 premiership in the VFA in its new VFL history or was able to keep its black and white Magpie identity in the VFL, via its existing jumper and logo.

 

[Carringbush2010]

If Collingwood went back to the VFL to play against the likes of Box Hill, Port Melbourne, Williamstown and Frankston etc. and the national competition continued with traditional rivals of the likes of Carlton, Richmond and Essendon still competing, of course Collingwood would lose fans.

Wrong again, if these clubs went back to the VFL guess what; the TV the fans the dollars the sponsorships would be going to the VFL and therefore would be the premier comp. It would be folly to suggest that the supporter base of these clubs would just stop following their club and accept it - that is just ridiculous. For example still to this day you follow Fitzroy right? Even though it is not in the premier comp, so just imagine for a minute if the big 4, Hawthorn, Adel & WC went to the VFL for whatever reason you think all that fan base is going to follow another league and just stop following their club? Very highly unlikely IMV

 

[jatz14]

Wrong again, if these clubs went back to the VFL guess what; the TV the fans the dollars the sponsorships would be going to the VFL and therefore would be the premier comp. It would be folly to suggest that the supporter base of these clubs would just stop following their club and accept it - that is just ridiculous. For example still to this day you follow Fitzroy right? Even though it is not in the premier comp, so just imagine for a minute if the big 4, Hawthorn, Adel & WC went to the VFL for whatever reason you think all that fan base is going to follow another league and just stop following their club? Very highly unlikely IMV

Bollocks.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[Roylion]

Wrong again, if these clubs went back to the VFL guess what; the TV the fans the dollars the sponsorships would be going to the VFL and therefore would be the premier comp.

We're not talking clubs. We're talking club. Many supporters would continue to follow their club. That's not what I'm suggesting. You You claimed that "where the club goes is where the fans go." That's not necessarily true and it's almost certain that not all fans of said club would follow their club to the VFL.

It would be folly to suggest that the supporter base of these clubs would just stop following their club and accept it - that is just ridiculous. For example still to this day you follow Fitzroy right?

I do. But many Fitzroy supporters who were around when they were in the AFL do not.

Even though it is not in the premier comp, so just imagine for a minute if the big 4, Hawthorn, Adel & WC went to the VFL for whatever reason

I'm talking if ONE AFL club (in this case Colingwood) went to the VFL. It is almost certain that not all Collingwood fans would follow their club to the VFL. As I said, there would be far less media exposure in the VFL competition, those players playing in Collingwood's senior team would be second tier players and while the overall club history would be retained by the club (as Fitzroy has retained their VFA, VFL, AFL history), it would take time to forge a new VFL (VFA) history that the remaining fans cared about. And that's even if Collingwood counted its 1896 premiership in the VFA in its new VFL history or was able to keep its black and white Magpie identity in the VFL, via its existing jumper and logo.

you think all that fan base is going to follow another league and just stop following their club? Very highly unlikely IMV

Many fanatical supporters will. You might. However will all the fans (especially those who are casual fans), currently following Collingwood in the national league follow them into the VFL to play against those teams currently making up the VFL and to forge a new history in that competition? Of course not.

 

[Carringbush2010]

We're not talking clubs. We're talking club. Many supporters would continue to follow their club. That's not what I'm suggesting. You You claimed that "where the club goes is where the fans go." That's not necessarily true and it's almost certain that not all fans of said club would follow their club to the VFL.



I do. But many Fitzroy supporters who were around when they were in the AFL do not.



I'm talking if ONE AFL club (in this case Colingwood) went to the VFL. It is almost certain that not all Collingwood fans would follow their club to the VFL. As I said, there would be far less media exposure in the VFL competition, those players playing in Collingwood's senior team would be second tier players and while the overall club history would be retained by the club (as Fitzroy has retained their VFA, VFL, AFL history), it would take time to forge a new VFL (VFA) history that the remaining fans cared about. And that's even if Collingwood counted its 1896 premiership in the VFA in its new VFL history or was able to keep its black and white Magpie identity in the VFL, via its existing jumper and logo.



Many fanatical supporters will. You might. However will all the fans (especially those who are casual fans), currently following Collingwood in the national league follow them into the VFL to play against those teams currently making up the VFL and to forge a new history in that competition? Of course not.

Well we'll never know will we, because those clubs will always be in the premier comp won't they. So on both sides of the argument it is purely speculative.

 

[Wally Walpamur]

April Fool's day is April 1st

 

[Carringbush2010]

Bollocks.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

Great debating skills there I'm now convinced you're correct

 

[Roylion]

Well we'll never know will we, because those clubs will always be in the premier comp won't they.

We have an example of an AFL club leaving the national competition and currently playing in a lower tier competition. To this day they wear exactly the same jumper and have the same name as when they were in the AFL. They also play at that club's traditional home ground in the very same suburb in which they were originally formed, 133 years go. Yet still Fitzroy have less members and supporters today than they did when they were in the AFL. For obvious reasons.

So on both sides of the argument it is purely speculative.

Is it? See above.

 

[jatz14]

Great debating skills there I'm now convinced you're correct

Nothing further needed be said.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[GremioPower]

I'm not against expansion in the AFL and i'm certainly not 100% against another AFL team in WA in the distant future.

What i am against is expansion for the sake of it. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done.

We have a number of AFL clubs that are barely surviving without the AFL's financial backing. I believe there should be probably 3-4 less teams in the league BUT rightly or wrongly the AFL has chosen to go with 18 teams.

I'd rather the AFL focus on spending the next 10-20 years focusing on what we already have, growing the teams we have so each one can be self sufficient without AFL support before we even consider adding in any more teams.

I knew we agree. Keeping the number of clubs at 18 is a good thing...

 

[GremioPower]

Well we'll never know will we, because those clubs will always be in the premier comp won't they. So on both sides of the argument it is purely speculative.

You both realize that you can all be correct at the same time, right? Collingwood would suffer from moving to a lower league, while VFL would gain by getting Collingwood in it.

 

[Carringbush2010]

We have an example of an AFL club leaving the national competition and currently playing in a lower tier competition. To this day they wear exactly the same jumper and have the same name as when they were in the AFL. They also play at that club's traditional home ground in the very same suburb in which they were originally formed, 133 years go. Yet still Fitzroy have less members and supporters today than they did when they were in the AFL. For obvious reasons

It'd hard to argue the situation would be the same for the clubs I've mentioned

 

[Carringbush2010]

You both realize that you can all be correct at the same time, right? Collingwood would suffer from moving to a lower league, while VFL would gain by getting Collingwood in it.

Almost! For starters in our lifetime at least what ever comp Collingwood is in will be the premier comp

 

[Roylion]

It'd hard to argue the situation would be the same for the clubs I've mentioned

'The same"? All I've said is Collingwood would lose members and supporters if they left the AFL. I've also said why.

I've based my conclusion on what happened to an existing, operating football club that also left the AFL twenty-one years ago. You've based your conclusion on.....well...I'm not sure what you've based it on.

We're just going around in circles now.

 

[Carringbush2010]

'The same"? All I've said is Collingwood would lose members and supporters if they left the AFL. I've also said why.

I've based my conclusion on what happened to an existing, operating football club that also left the AFL twenty-one years ago. You've based your conclusion on.....well...I'm not sure what you've based it on.

We're just going around in circles now.

I don't see it that way, we can't prove one way or the other because it will never happen not in my life time anyway. Teams like the big 4 i:e truckloads of rusted on supporters will always be well supported and won't lose enough to be relegated to a 2nd tier comp.

So I'm basing it on supporter base, which pays through the gate and watches the TV and buys the merchandise. The only way out is if there is absolutely no hope of on field success ever which would lead to the erosion of the supporter base

 

[longdonkey]

I think you meant to type ... 'If they had seen Fitzroy as an integral part of the competition they would not have murdered them in cold blood with malice aforethought' ...

If it was at a different time it could have easily been Melbourne, Western Bulldogs, North Melbourne or at one stage even Hawthorn. But at that stage the AFL were pretty keen to expand at the expense of one Melbourne club.

 

[TwentyNine]

"“West Perth Falcons” clashes well against “West Coast Eagles.”"

It could not possibly clash worse.