Analysis Drugs in Sport

[carnthemlions]

The players get paid big money to be role models on and off the field.

Taking drugs is illegal. Hence, if they are taking drugs, they aren't doing their job and should lose their job.

Legalizing drugs is a step backwards for society in my opinion. People are using the same logic that Americans use for their gun laws. Beggars belief that people think it is a valid argument

Yes, the punitive approach has worked very well. Wait, no it hasn't.
What does this have to do with gun laws? The aim is completely different, minimising harm vs personal freedoms.

 

[WA Lion]

Australia has one of the highest rates of recreational drug use in the world, so a lot of AFL players would be using recreational drugs at least occasionally no matter what they were doing. So... of course there are Lions players who use recreational drugs. That doesn't bother me, and it shouldn't bother you.
You aren't going to stop people from using recreational drugs. All we can do is educate people, make it safer and try to ensure that people use less harmful drugs.

Works pretty well for the NFL. Domestic violence and other issues- not a priority, they're busy clamping down on players who are partial to the occasional joint.

Just because Australia has one of the highest rates doesn't make it acceptable! And it absolutely bothers me that Lions players would be part of that (would be foolish to think they are not). Your are right in that you won't stop people from using recreational drugs, but you do need to take the necessary steps to prevent/minimize it. Simply saying 'well everyone is doing it anyway so why bother trying to stop it?' is no way to run a national competition that has so many young fans. By not doing anything you may as well endorse it.

and as for the NFL comparison, I don't see why you can't address everything. The NFL clearly avoids the big issues, the AFL needn't follow the same path.

 

[WA Lion]

The players get paid big money to be role models on and off the field.

Taking drugs is illegal. Hence, if they are taking drugs, they aren't doing their job and should lose their job.

Legalizing drugs is a step backwards for society in my opinion. People are using the same logic that Americans use for their gun laws. Beggars belief that people think it is a valid argument

Not sure I agree with the American gun laws logic but the role model on and off field being a requirement of a professional sportsman is absolutely spot on.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Just because Australia has one of the highest rates doesn't make it acceptable! And it absolutely bothers me that Lions players would be part of that (would be foolish to think they are not). Your are right in that you won't stop people from using recreational drugs, but you do need to take the necessary steps to prevent/minimize it. Simply saying 'well everyone is doing it anyway so why bother trying to stop it?' is no way to run a national competition that has so many young fans. By not doing anything you may as well endorse it.

Not treating it as a crime doesn't in itself equate to doing nothing. There are alternatives to harsh punitive measures.

Put it this way... pretend you are an alcoholic for a second. Would you prefer to seek help for your problem in a society where alcohol abuse is seen as a medical affliction often exacerbated by other issues such as depression and anxiety, or would you prefer to take your chances in prohibition era America where it was considered a shameful vice punishable by law?

 

[Hollow Knight]

Oh, and another point to think about. People who are in favour of harsh drug criminalisation are the best friends that drug dealers and organised criminals ever had. Way to create an entire black market for them to profit from. Just a shame so many innocent third parties have to get caught in the crossfire. :/

It's as though the whole failed prohibition experiment never happened. But public policy has an incredible blindspot to the facts.

 

[Dom PC]

Are they?

"Reads previous page looking for posts saying that the constitution guarantees the right to bear drugs to ensure the security of the free state."

I wasn't referring to constitutional rights.

I am more talking about this angle (paraphrasing here) - "The majority of people using guns/taking drugs are safe and responsible, why should we not have the right to use them responsibly?"

Drug use would be one of the top reasons Australia's mental health situation is where it is at. Adding more drugs will not improve the situation.

 

[WA Lion]

Not treating it as a crime doesn't in itself equate to doing nothing. There are alternatives to harsh punitive measures.

Put it this way... pretend you are an alcoholic for a second. Would you prefer to seek help for your problem in a society where alcohol abuse is seen as a medical affliction often exacerbated by other issues such as depression and anxiety, or would you prefer to take your chances in prohibition era America where it was considered a shameful vice punishable by law?

Therein is the key, the players have openly said they don't see it as a problem as there is little deterrent (particularly during the off-season). First step to recovery is acknowledging an issue in the first place. If they acknowledged it as a problem you would be on the money, but while it is not considered a problem, and while so many are willing to accept that there is no point legislating more significantly against recreational drug use in a professional sport, there is little hope of players having any form of deterrent and therefore recogninising a need for change.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I am more talking about this angle (paraphrasing here) - "The majority of people using guns/taking drugs are safe and responsible, why should we not have the right to use them responsibly?"

Well you could use that logic for jam donuts, Superglue or Draino. It's a really odd analogy, bordering on a straw man.

I think a much closer example of the logic you are trying to criticise would be alcohol which is regulated, rather than illegal.

 

[WA Lion]

Oh, and another point to think about. People who are in favour of harsh drug criminalisation are the best friends that drug dealers and organised criminals ever had. Way to create an entire black market for them to profit from. Just a shame so many innocent third parties have to get caught in the crossfire. :/

It's as though the whole failed prohibition experiment never happened. But public policy has an incredible blindspot to the facts.

The punishment doesn't need to be harsh though, it needs to fit the crime. In no way should recreational drugs be treated the same as performance enhancing, which is blatant cheating and should be punishing by the cane, or stoning, or whatever they do these days.
Punishment for recreational drugs needn't be excessive, it just needs to be part of a deterrent that helps an individual recognise that they are making poor choices and need to make changes. Then the education and rehabilitation aspects kick in.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Punishment for recreational drugs needn't be excessive, it just needs to be part of a deterrent that helps an individual recognise that they are making poor choices and need to make changes. Then the education and rehabilitation aspects kick in.

There are a whole bunch of poor choices that players make that are arguably more detrimental to a player's performance than the occasional joint or line.

Billy Longer staying up all night playing World of Warcraft. Ash McGrath having a durry and a KFC two piece feed after training...

So is it about professionalism or the law? If it's the latter... all some of us are saying it shouldn't be.

 

[WA Lion]

Anyway, enough from me. The media thread has become the recreational drug working group again and i suspect this debate could go on for a long time!

 

[Dom PC]

Well you could use that logic for jam donuts or Draino. It's a really odd analogy, bordering on a straw man.

I think a much closer example of the logic you are trying to criticise would be alcohol which is regulated, rather than illegal.

We were talking about recreational drugs. Not sure jam donuts or draino qualify under that criteria...

Alcohol is a separate issue to drugs. Drugs are regulated btw.

 

[Hollow Knight]

We were talking about recreational drugs. Not sure jam donuts or draino qualify under that criteria...

But "something something something guns" right?

Alcohol is a separate issue to drugs.

Is alcohol a drug that is used recreationally?

 

[carnthemlions]

I wasn't referring to constitutional rights.

I am more talking about this angle (paraphrasing here) - "The majority of people using guns/taking drugs are safe and responsible, why should we not have the right to use them responsibly?"

Drug use would be one of the top reasons Australia's mental health situation is where it is at. Adding more drugs will not improve the situation.

Or maybe mental health issues are the reason Australians use recreational drugs so often? Neither is true, by the way. There are a wide range of reasons as to why drug use is so widespread here. I don't pretend to be aware of all of them. The point is that it's become normalised despite years of punitive measures. It would therefore seem logical that those same punitive measures won't do anything to solve the problem, wouldn't it?

By the way, no one here is coming at this from the personal freedoms angle (apart from you, of course).

Oh, and another point to think about. People who are in favour of harsh drug criminalisation are the best friends that drug dealers and organised criminals ever had. Way to create an entire black market for them to profit from. Just a shame so many innocent third parties have to get caught in the crossfire. :/

It's as though the whole failed prohibition experiment never happened. But public policy has an incredible blindspot to the facts.

The response to deaths at festivals was great. The NSW Deputy Premier (some Nationals *******) threatened to shut down festivals and so on, because that will obviously make people stop taking drugs right? The problem is that the response to the problem is inevitably directed by people who don't understand the problem (older politicians), and targeted at people who don't understand the problem or even have any stake in it (older people). The section of Australian society that is most affected (younger people) is completely shut out from the process. More votes in pandering to reactionaries unfortunately.

We were talking about recreational drugs. Not sure jam donuts or draino qualify under that criteria...

Alcohol is a separate issue to drugs. Drugs are regulated btw.

Illicit drugs can't be regulated because they're illicit.

 

[Dom PC]

But something something guns?

But something something straw man?

 

[pulpdriver]

We were talking about recreational drugs. Not sure jam donuts or draino qualify under that criteria...

Alcohol is a separate issue to drugs. Drugs are regulated btw.

How so? It's a drug. Is regulation the issue? So what if Ecstasy and Amphetamines were regulated? Are the suddenly acceptable?

People can turn anything into drugs. Pretty sure that's the point BD is making.

 

[Billy Puller]

I can see this conversation ending well

 

[Hollow Knight]

But something something straw man?

Yep.

 

[SizeMatters]

so much facepalm by the pro druggies... I thought TBD was a teacher? Wouldn't you want students that wanted to learn? Attend classes? Be involved?

When I was growing up some of my peers were bright, enthusiastic students that came from good homes. They were introduced to weed through kids at school and it drastically changed their attitude. What was once confident, outgoing, energetic kids they were replaced with ones that would barely turn up to class, didn't do the work required and eventually dropped out before finishing their study. This happens within a culture where drugs are illegal, looked down upon by parents and the government and are relatively hard for high school students to get hold of. Now imagine illicit drugs are legalised and have flooded all levels of society... embraced by this current generation much like how alcohol was embraced by previous generations. This is when we as a society will fall apart...

The sad case above that I outlined will be common place in class rooms in 25 years time. Alcohol abuse is rife throughout the age group of 14+ now. Just add in potential addiction to weed, meth, or any other 'high' and you will get the point. I've seen the effects illicit drugs has on people first hand more than enough to know that legalising will be the worst thing this nation would do since electing Rudd as PM. We just can't afford to take on this legalising 'experiment'. It is almost impossible to make something illegal after it is legal so there will be no reverting back. If they had a ban alcohol referendum I'd be the first to vote YES but I know for a fact this will never ever happen. I will feel sorry for my kids.

You should all read 'With Love from Dad' by Malcolm Smith. A lot of it is valid today.

 

[Hollow Knight]

so much facepalm by the pro druggies... I thought TBD was...

Stopped reading there.

Not reading the rest after such a complete misrepresentation. Wasted your time.

Some people seem so invested in "winning" a discussion that they misrepresent an argument to make it easier on them.

 

[SizeMatters]

Stopped reading there.

Not reading the rest after such a complete misrepresentation. Wasted your time.

damn. Actually reading this comment wasted my time. So I guess sorry for wasting yours?

 

[Dom PC]

All I am saying is legalizing recreational drugs, to me, seems like a recipe for disaster. Essentially I see it as Australia has a large drug problem, and some people's solution to the problem is to make drugs more readily available.

The parallels I am drawing to my gun debate reference was simply that both solutions involve flooding society with more of the stuff that is already damaging society. Regulations are great in principle, but in reality they would be governed and enforced by the same people that according to many here, is already failing at their jobs.

Overall I just think prevention (keep the drugs illegal) is a better method than the reaction one (make the drugs legal).

Just my opinion of course

 

[ZoBlitz]

Thought this was an interesting enough debate to have its own thread if people can argue in good faith considering the issue is a complex and nuanced one.

That and it was getting off-topic in the media thread...

 

[Hollow Knight]

All I am saying is legalizing recreational drugs, to me, seems like a recipe for disaster.

To start with, there is a difference between legalisation and decriminalisation.

But I will grant you, on the face of it it seems totally counter-intuitive until you look deeper at the economic intricacies of drugs. And by economic intricacies I don't simply mean the money that is wasted on drug enforcement... I mean the internal relationships of incentives and disincentives that are at play throughout the whole chain. The most interesting and relevant ones being the adverse affects of the prohibition of any desired good.

Let's forget about drug users for a second and think about the innocents who get caught in the crossfire of the drug trade... the innocent people killed in turf wars by drug cartels in third world countries, and drug gangs in first/second world countries... the victims of terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda who fund their operations by selling opium on the black market, victims of violence and theft at the hands of junkies trying to get money for their next fix, the impoverished/disenfranchised kids and young adults who are recruited into these gangs before they are old enough to know better and end up either dead or imprisoned at the hands of ridiculously excessive (and racist) mandatory minimum sentencing laws in the US.

All of these innocents are not victims of "drug abuse". They are victims specifically of the illegal black market that is created as a result of the criminalisation of drugs.

Gotta go to bed now but I am happy to discuss the positive impacts of drug decriminalisation on drug abusers tomorrow. If you want to do some background reading, the statistics from Portugal are interesting.

 

[SizeMatters]

All I am saying is legalizing recreational drugs, to me, seems like a recipe for disaster. Essentially I see it as Australia has a large drug problem, and some people's solution to the problem is to make drugs more readily available.

The parallels I am drawing to my gun debate reference was simply that both solutions involve flooding society with more of the stuff that is already damaging society. Regulations are great in principle, but in reality they would be governed and enforced by the same people that according to many here, is already failing at their jobs.

Overall I just thin prevention (keep the drugs illegal) is a better method than the reaction one (make the drugs legal).

Just my opinion of course

Legal or not drugs will always be found if you want to look for them. It's just that those who are fence sitters/opportunistic hunters (does that even make sense?) won't take the plunge if there is severe laws against the possession and/or use of illicit substances. I just don't understand why a growing part of society would want to legalise it considering the damages it could pose. I have a family member who has lived in the USA 10 years ago and has since moved back recently and he told me that his state is experiencing diminishing production rates/ increased days off work, and increased youth delinquency. He works as a social worker as well so should have the low down. His state legalized weed in 2012 from memory... coincidence?