Opinion Dustin Martin is better than Dangerfield

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Partridge

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Remind which two games did he have no impact whatsoever again?

vs Richmond; 31 touches, 1.1, 5 tackles, 3 clearances, 9 clangers
vs Sydney; 26 touches, 4.3, 4 tackles, 2 clearances, 3 clangers
vs Adelaide; 24 touches, 2.3, 9 tackles, 5 clearances, 3 clangers


I think you're confusing Danger's impact with the result of the game. His overall finals averages are almost exactly the same as his overall h&a averages
Richmond and Adelaide.

Easily determined by watching the games.
 

Richo83

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Remind which two games did he have no impact whatsoever again?

vs Richmond; 31 touches, 1.1, 5 tackles, 3 clearances, 9 clangers
vs Sydney; 26 touches, 4.3, 4 tackles, 2 clearances, 3 clangers
vs Adelaide; 24 touches, 2.3, 9 tackles, 5 clearances, 3 clangers


I think you're confusing Danger's impact with the result of the game. His overall finals averages are almost exactly the same as his overall h&a averages
Against Richmond, Dangerfield had next to no influence on the game and when the game turned in the second half, he was very quiet and coughed up the ball a lot. Against Adelaide his two goals were when the game was already over. I know that we're grading Dangerfield on a curve and it's a harsh standard, but he's a superstar and superstars are critically important in finals. That final against Richmond was another final where Martin, especially in the second half turned up, which is another reason why Dangerfield's absence was an issue. Geelong won't win against Richmond if Dangerfield is quiet and Martin is on form.

I'm not disputing Dusty being better than Danger in finals, but Dusty is 10-2 and Danger 5-8 in that time so would always win the votes. There are probably several Richmond players that get more votes per game in the finals than any Geelong player including Danger
And why do you think the two sides have such records? It's partly because of the records of their two superstars in said matches.
 
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Partridge

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No impact whatsoever hey?
Nope. He was buffered and harassed every time he touched the ball against Richmond. As it’s all about the stats his disposal efficiency was pretty low from memory.

Against Adelaide he had one good quarter (the second) and that was it. Do remember him lying on the ground arms outstretched while Sloan stupidly decided to keep playing the game. Amateur.
 

Herne Hill Hammer

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GAS went missing in many finals where he didn't get his team across the line, Dusty was more consistent in finals than GAS.
But GAS has done things many wont ever do -it was a different time then though.
I'll just put these figures up for Ablett's finals :

'89 qf - 13 kicks, 7 marks and 3.3 in a loss.
'89 sf - 19 kicks, 8 marks and 7.7 in a win.
'89 pf - 22 kicks, 10 marks and 8.5 in a win.
'89 gf - 12 kicks, 8 marks and 9.1 in a loss.

27.16 for the series

'91 ef - 5 kicks, 1 mark and no score in a win. He retired before the season started and came back in rd 13.

'92 qf - 13 kicks, 3 marks and 5.1 in a win
'92 sf - 12 kicks, 5 marks and 4.5 in a loss
'92 pf - 15 kicks, 8 marks and 4.2 in a win
'92 gf - 13 kicks, 4 marks and 3.1 in a loss

16.9 for the series

'94 qf - 13 kicks, 8 marks and 6.6 in a win
'94 sf - 9 kicks, 5 marks and 6.3 in a win
'94 pf - 5 kicks, 5 marks and 3.0 in a win
'94 gf - 3 kicks, 1 mark and 1.2 in a loss

16.11 for the series

'95 pf - 8 kicks, 7 marks and and 4.1 in a win
'95 gf - 10 kicks, 2 marks and 0.3 in a loss

'96 qf - 10 kicks, 3 marks and 1.3 in a loss.

16 games, 64 goals and 43 behinds, pretty much 4.3 per game. His 4 worst finals were his last 3 grand finals and the ef in '91 when he came out of retirement after missing pre-season and half the h&a. Outside of those games, his worst return in a loss was 3.1 in the gf.

In losses : 21.18 from 7 games = 3 goals 2.5 behinds per loss = 20.57 points per game

In wins : 43.25 from 8 games = 5.5 goals and 3 behinds per win = 35.37 points per game.
 

GoGeta

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Even if everything was reversed. Geelong had won the last bunch of GF's. Danger was the better preformed finals player.
Martin was Mr Magic during the H & A season. Richmonds era was ten years ago. The media didn't pump both players non stop.

Even then. I would still be f*n embarrassed to create a thread like this, let alone have multiple posts arguing X vs Y in this 183 page behemoth waste of time.
 

Richo83

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Nope. He was buffered and harassed every time he touched the ball against Richmond. As it’s all about the stats his disposal efficiency was pretty low from memory.

Against Adelaide he had one good quarter (the second) and that was it. Do remember him lying on the ground arms outstretched while Sloan stupidly decided to keep playing the game. Amateur.
Yeah he was bad. Against Richmond and Adelaide when both sides had their surge to kill off the game, Dangerfield didn't stand up.

For the cats fans here, why is this the case? Is it his teammates not supporting him? Do teams know how to work him out in finals?
 

Wojcinski

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Against Richmond, Dangerfield had next to no influence on the game and when the game turned in the second half, he was very quiet and coughed up the ball a lot. Against Adelaide his two goals were when the game was already over. I know that we're grading Dangerfield on a curve and it's a harsh standard, but he's a superstar and superstars are critically important in finals. That final against Richmond was another final where Martin, especially in the second half turned up, which is another reason why Dangerfield's absence was an issue. Geelong won't win against Richmond if Dangerfield is quiet and Martin is on form.



And why do you think the two sides have such records? It's partly because of the records of their two superstars in said matches.
Yeah he was bad. Against Richmond and Adelaide when both sides had their surge to kill off the game, Dangerfield didn't stand up.

For the cats fans here, why is this the case? Is it his teammates not supporting him? Do teams know how to work him out in finals?
Revisionist history. Dangerfield was named in the best for both of those games so he is hardly the reason Geelong lost (both results were 50+ point blowouts). Danger also kicked his 2 goals in the Adelaide PF in the second quarter, not in the dying stages of the game (it was already over in one sense though since Cats were about 8 goals down). Against Richmond he was 4th in supercoach and vs Adelaide he was 3rd. His disposal efficiency vs Richmond was 45%, obviously poor and 59% vs Adelaide, slightly below his season average.

You can argue until you blue in the face but I'll always be correct, him having a bad game in a GF doesn't all of a sudden mean he's never played a good final in his life and frankly its bizarre that this thread keeps going down that path.

Just ask yourself this, if Dusty and Danger switched teams would Geelong instead have 3 cups and Richmond none?
 

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Just ask yourself this, if Dusty and Danger switched teams would Geelong instead have 3 cups and Richmond none?
I don't know if Geelong would have 3, but they wouldn't have none. I honestly believe if Dusty played for Geelong instead, you'd have a flag.

Dangerfield is a fantastic footballer. I'd welcome him to the Tiges in a flash. But to my eye, it seems more natural for Dusty to bring others into the game from a team point of view, It just looks/feels more natural, more balanced. Yes, he does his freakish stuff, but it's his ability to bring others into the game that is the difference to me.

In 17GF, that first goal where he won the contest on the HFF. That little screw kick to Houli, completely intentional. He saw it.

The 2nd goal in the 20GF where he dinked it off the outside of the boot to Baker to McIntosh. He looks up and sees this stuff. That's where I think Danger would normally try and burst away/through. Which is awesome, and sometimes works, often works.

I just think Martin looks/sees more, has more team awareness. And it's only a couple of percent.
 
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juss

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Just ask yourself this, if Dusty and Danger switched teams would Geelong instead have 3 cups and Richmond none?
I can't say if Geelong would have any, but when I look at Dusty's collective home and aways and then subsequent finals performances in 17,19 and 20 I'm not sure we win any of those. His QF second half against Geelong in 2017, his 5 or 6 goals against Brisbane in 2019 QF, his Grand Final against the Cats in 2020, I havent yet seen Danger do that in key finals. Not to mention all his other finals where he was a vote getter.
 

Partridge

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Revisionist history. Dangerfield was named in the best for both of those games so he is hardly the reason Geelong lost (both results were 50+ point blowouts). Danger also kicked his 2 goals in the Adelaide PF in the second quarter, not in the dying stages of the game (it was already over in one sense though since Cats were about 8 goals down). Against Richmond he was 4th in supercoach and vs Adelaide he was 3rd. His disposal efficiency vs Richmond was 45%, obviously poor and 59% vs Adelaide, slightly below his season average.
Firstly, no one has said he's the reason Geelong lost. And it's not revisionist history. It was discussed loud and clear at the time. And after another poor final in 2018. And after his complete disappearance in the Prelim last year. As has been said, it is not a one-off.

You can argue until you blue in the face but I'll always be correct, him having a bad game in a GF doesn't all of a sudden mean he's never played a good final in his life and frankly its bizarre that this thread keeps going down that path.

Just ask yourself this, if Dusty and Danger switched teams would Geelong instead have 3 cups and Richmond none?
That makes sense. Yes it is bizarre that other posters have a different view. How dare they.
 

Partridge

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I can't say if Geelong would have any, but when I look at Dusty's collective home and aways and then subsequent finals performances in 17,19 and 20 I'm not sure we win any of those. His QF second half against Geelong in 2017, his 5 or 6 goals against Brisbane in 2019 QF, his Grand Final against the Cats in 2020, I havent yet seen Danger do that in key finals. Not to mention all his other finals where he was a vote getter.
He did that I'd say once - the semi against Sydney in 2017 when he kicked 4. He was excellent in our Prelim loss (along with Selwood) in 2016. But the problem is the good games have been outweighed by bad ones in recent years. I know he kicked 4 against Collingwood this year but they were shot two minutes in - that's not our fault, and you take your wins anyway you can - the Sydney game to me was a far higher performance.
 

Partridge

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Yeah he was bad. Against Richmond and Adelaide when both sides had their surge to kill off the game, Dangerfield didn't stand up.

For the cats fans here, why is this the case? Is it his teammates not supporting him? Do teams know how to work him out in finals?
It's a combination of factors I'd say.

Firstly, he hasn't been the same player as he was in 2016/2017. He's still been good, and sometimes great, but even Geelong posters telling themselves he's still the best or near the best player in the comp are kidding themselves. He didn't come close to that form in 2020. We had three nominations by the players for the league MVP and he wasn't included, on form quite rightly.

My own view, I think that Hawthorn game in 2017 and the Sydney final the same year has convinced an awful lot of people - in footy media, and more worryingly at Geelong - that he can be a great forward anytime he feels like it. We've been trying it out ever since. The reality is he's not. He's certainly a threat resting forward, and if you leave a midfielder on him he'll outmark them most times or win a free (like against Cotchin in the Grand Final). The problem is opposition teams aren't as stupid as we think, and they tend to put bigger defenders on him now, so he can't outmark them, and if it comes down under pressure it tends to be congested so he doesn't have space. Richmond started it in 2018, they put Rance on him then, and Grimes or Broad now. It's a lot harder to become a star forward than people realise. And I think him constantly swapping between midfield and up forward hasn't helped him.

The other thing is even as a midfielder he's come back to the field. In a number of games this year against strong midfields - GWS, Richmond twice, the Port final - he was not a factor at all. Our making the Grand final was much more to do with Guthrie and Menegola improving than Selwood or Dangerfield starring. He can be completely unaccountable defensively too so unless he's winning the ball he can be exposed. But that applies to other Geelong mids as well so it's certainly not just him.

I think the final factor is the hardest to quantify. Pressure. Finals have it, and particularly in recent years he hasn't handled it. It'll probably be dismissed, but it's become a worrying pattern. You can write off one bad final, everyone has them. He's had more than a few now, and as he's gotten older they're getting more common.
 

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Wojcinski

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Firstly, no one has said he's the reason Geelong lost.
You must have missed what the person I was quoting said;

And why do you think the two sides have such records? It's partly because of the records of their two superstars in said matches.
Let me just add this, I've said it before in this thread I'm not disputing the fact that Dusty is better than Danger, Dusty is possibly the best finals performer of all time. I just think it's funny that Danger now gets labeled as a finals flop when he clearly isn't. Yes his GF was bad, yes Dusty is better but Danger has been one of Geelong's best in practically every final he has played for us, even the so-called 'flop' games in 2017. One man not named Dustin Martin can't carry an entire team and Danger has been trying for years now.
 

Partridge

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Let me just add this, I've said it before in this thread I'm not disputing the fact that Dusty is better than Danger, Dusty is possibly the best finals performer of all time. I just think it's funny that Danger now gets labeled as a finals flop when he clearly isn't. Yes his GF was bad, yes Dusty is better but Danger has been one of Geelong's best in practically every final he has played for us, even the so-called 'flop' games in 2017. One man not named Dustin Martin can't carry an entire team and Danger has been trying for years now.
That's where we fundamentally disagree. No way has he been in our best in every Geelong final he's played. No way at all.
 

Wojcinski

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That's where we fundamentally disagree. No way has he been in our best in every Geelong final he's played. No way at all.
So going by the AFL.com.au match reports he was named in the Cats bests in 11 of 13 finals

2016
QF v Hawthorn; named first best
PF v Sydney; named first best

2017;
QF v Richmond; third best
SF v Sydney; first best
PF v Adelaide; fifth best

2018;
EF v Melbourne; first best

2019;
QF v Collingwood; second best
SF v West Coast; not in bests
PF v Richmond; third best

2020;
QF v Port; third best
SF v Collingwood; first best
PF v Brisbane; third best
GF v Richmond; not in bests
 

Ricky Vaughn

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So going by the AFL.com.au match reports he was named in the Cats bests in 11 of 13 finals

2016
QF v Hawthorn; named first best
PF v Sydney; named first best

2017;
QF v Richmond; third best
SF v Sydney; first best
PF v Adelaide; fifth best

2018;
EF v Melbourne; first best

2019;
QF v Collingwood; second best
SF v West Coast; not in bests
PF v Richmond; third best

2020;
QF v Port; third best
SF v Collingwood; first best
PF v Brisbane; third best
GF v Richmond; not in bests
The AFL have got no clue based on this. He was really poor against Richmond in 2017, horrible against Melbourne in 2018, but somehow only our second best in what was clearly his best Final as a midfielder, the Collingwood QF. Terrible again against Port in 2020.
 

Tzatziki_Man

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So going by the AFL.com.au match reports he was named in the Cats bests in 11 of 13 finals

2016
QF v Hawthorn; named first best
PF v Sydney; named first best

2017;
QF v Richmond; third best
SF v Sydney; first best
PF v Adelaide; fifth best

2018;
EF v Melbourne; first best

2019;
QF v Collingwood; second best
SF v West Coast; not in bests
PF v Richmond; third best

2020;
QF v Port; third best
SF v Collingwood; first best
PF v Brisbane; third best
GF v Richmond; not in bests
Horrifying against Richmond in all three finals. I wouldn't read too much into 'opinion'. When he wins a premiership, you won't need to rely on trivial items to build your case.
 

Richo83

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So going by the AFL.com.au match reports he was named in the Cats bests in 11 of 13 finals

2016
QF v Hawthorn; named first best
PF v Sydney; named first best

2017;
QF v Richmond; third best
SF v Sydney; first best
PF v Adelaide; fifth best

2018;
EF v Melbourne; first best

2019;
QF v Collingwood; second best
SF v West Coast; not in bests
PF v Richmond; third best

2020;
QF v Port; third best
SF v Collingwood; first best
PF v Brisbane; third best
GF v Richmond; not in bests
AFL match reports generally give the bests to the players who had the most stats. If you look at AFL player ratings, for instance, Dangerfield was the eighth worst player in the 2018 elimination final. In fact, the fact that he was listed as first best in a game where Dangerfield repeatedly coughed up the ball and made numerous key errors tells me everything I need to know about these best lists who are usually compiled by AFL journalists who focus on the stars and don't really know how to rank the other players as their knowledge and feel for the game is limited. He was listed as the eighth best cats player in the 2017 qualifying final. He was listed as Geelong's 17th best against Brisbane this year.

But I will agree that Dangerfield is generally in the cats' bests in finals. But here's the problem, in the time Dangerfield has been a Geelong player, his side is 5-9 in finals. His competition in that time hasn't been fierce for cats' best, with players like Selwood winding down and other Geelong stars not performing well regularly. And part of that is that while Dangerfield may have been at the top of the cats' pile, he hasn't been good enough for Geelong to, you know, win. Again, we're grading Dangerfield on a curve, but him not shining as much as say Martin in finals is a problem for him and the team. I'm wiling to accept that his side's finals woes aren't all on him and asked cats fans before if there's something going on here. But there's also something going on with Dangerfield, or, at the least, how he's used and supported.

It's noticeable that in from 2017-2020, the only ones where he, in my eyes was elite as say Martin's 2020 grand final performance was against Collingwood twice and Sydney. I can't remember the 2016 finals that well so I'm willing to give him that.
 

Richo83

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The AFL have got no clue based on this. He was really poor against Richmond in 2017, horrible against Melbourne in 2018, but somehow only our second best in what was clearly his best Final as a midfielder, the Collingwood QF. Terrible again against Port in 2020.
Agree, Woj needs to go back and actually watch the games. Against Melbourne in 2018 he had twelve clangers and spent most of the night either kicking it to the opposition or kicking it out of bounds. Had little positive influence and at times should have given it to a player who was kicking better. Gave away six free kicks and only had three inside 50s.
 

Richo83

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Revisionist history. Dangerfield was named in the best for both of those games so he is hardly the reason Geelong lost (both results were 50+ point blowouts). Danger also kicked his 2 goals in the Adelaide PF in the second quarter, not in the dying stages of the game (it was already over in one sense though since Cats were about 8 goals down). Against Richmond he was 4th in supercoach and vs Adelaide he was 3rd. His disposal efficiency vs Richmond was 45%, obviously poor and 59% vs Adelaide, slightly below his season average.
As you point out though the game was already over. In fact in the Adelaide game it was over by quarter time. Not many sides come back from a 31 point quarter time deficit. Supercoach is a poor way of summarising a player's worth. It often overrates pure stats over influence.

You can argue until you blue in the face but I'll always be correct, him having a bad game in a GF doesn't all of a sudden mean he's never played a good final in his life and frankly its bizarre that this thread keeps going down that path.
No-one is saying that Dangerfield has never played a good final, but he's had his share of bad ones. His last three finals against Richmond he's been largely ineffective and his game against Melbourne he was awful. He racked up some junk points against the crows in 2017 but was quiet when it mattered. That's at least five I can name.

Just ask yourself this, if Dusty and Danger switched teams would Geelong instead have 3 cups and Richmond none?
You switch Martin and Dangerfield in the 2020 grand final and Martin and Dangerfield play the way they did? Geelong win. Dangerfield's quietness was one of the reasons why Richmond won. Martin's performance was the main reason why Richmond won. He kicked goals in key moments from difficult spots.

Let me just add this, I've said it before in this thread I'm not disputing the fact that Dusty is better than Danger, Dusty is possibly the best finals performer of all time. I just think it's funny that Danger now gets labeled as a finals flop when he clearly isn't. Yes his GF was bad, yes Dusty is better but Danger has been one of Geelong's best in practically every final he has played for us, even the so-called 'flop' games in 2017. One man not named Dustin Martin can't carry an entire team and Danger has been trying for years now.
I don't think Dangerfield has the finals record you'd expect from someone with such immense talent and output. The guy is a brownlow medalist and has eight All-Australian jackets. I also said that he's partly to blame. Look, if Richmond hadn't won a grand final in this period of history and Martin's record in finals was patchy, people would discuss whether Martin is really such a good player. It's fair for the same to be done to Dangerfield. As for the last comment, it's fair, and maybe Dangerfield feels like he needs to do too much and tries too hard.
 
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Richo83

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He did that I'd say once - the semi against Sydney in 2017 when he kicked 4. He was excellent in our Prelim loss (along with Selwood) in 2016. But the problem is the good games have been outweighed by bad ones in recent years. I know he kicked 4 against Collingwood this year but they were shot two minutes in - that's not our fault, and you take your wins anyway you can - the Sydney game to me was a far higher performance.
Yeah like with the Collingwood game, he kicked his first when the cats were already 28 points up. Against the swans in 2017, the cats just bullied the opposition around the ground, but Dangerfield's four first half goals were the difference. I think this touches on an aspect which is that Dangerfield, for whatever reason hasn't willed his side over the line in a close contest recently. Yet I've seen him do it in home and away matches which tells me he is capable of doing it and the side is capable of helping him do it, it's just... he doesn't.
 

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How is this thread still going?

Dusty's gonna be in the all time conversation when he retires.

Danger won't be close to that.

EOS.
 

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