Opinion Dustin Martin is better than Dangerfield

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harrythetiger

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Remind which two games did he have no impact whatsoever again?

vs Richmond; 31 touches, 1.1, 5 tackles, 3 clearances, 9 clangers
vs Sydney; 26 touches, 4.3, 4 tackles, 2 clearances, 3 clangers
vs Adelaide; 24 touches, 2.3, 9 tackles, 5 clearances, 3 clangers


I think you're confusing Danger's impact with the result of the game. His overall finals averages are almost exactly the same as his overall h&a averages
Dangerfield’s main impact in the 17 QF was to feed the ball back to Richmond via the boundary line.
 

Richo83

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It’s not a night to be remembered fondly by us, by I’ll also never forget it.

My abiding memory is relentless pressure, and for Dangerfield, him shanking a lot of kicks.
Which makes me wonder in a chicken-and-the-egg argument that is Geelong struggling in finals because of Dangerfield, or is Dangerfield struggling in finals because of Geelong?

That night Dangerfield lacked anyone to take the heat off of him. Duncan won some ball and was arguably Geelong's best player on the night. The Selwood brothers won some ball too but they were disappointing. Problem for Geelong is, how much resources can they pour into this team? They haven't had a top pick in a while and does Higgins take enough heat off?

On the other hand, Geelong probably do need Dangerfield to do more in finals. When he's up forward he tends to go for the big pack marks but I think he needs to try and be more creative and use his pace and bulk to be more of a small forward like Martin does. I find that Martin's goals tend to be the more opportunistic type and it's tough being a key forward in general let alone a final where space is at a premium. Dangerfield often plays as a key forward when he's inside the f50 and I think that'd be easier to counter than say as a small forward looking to dodge and weave. Maybe with Cameron in the side he'll play more as a small forward when he's pushed up the ground. It's why he often gets a key defender when he goes forward which makes his job harder. He also needs to not try and take as many risks with his kicking.
 

Partridge

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On the other hand, Geelong probably do need Dangerfield to do more in finals. When he's up forward he tends to go for the big pack marks but I think he needs to try and be more creative and use his pace and bulk to be more of a small forward like Martin does. I find that Martin's goals tend to be the more opportunistic type and it's tough being a key forward in general let alone a final where space is at a premium. Dangerfield often plays as a key forward when he's inside the f50 and I think that'd be easier to counter than say as a small forward looking to dodge and weave. Maybe with Cameron in the side he'll play more as a small forward when he's pushed up the ground. It's why he often gets a key defender when he goes forward which makes his job harder. He also needs to not try and take as many risks with his kicking.
This is exactly right, and it's very frustrating. If he gets a one out contest where he's a good chance, great. But otherwise, to me he's better off being at ground level. Or on the lead. Particularly with his pace.

It comes back to one other thing too which separates Martin (and Ablett) from the rest. They don't fall over. I can't remember the last time I saw Martin even jump for a mark. But he reads the ball at ground level faster than anyone else. Small thing but so important.
 

Richo83

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This is exactly right, and it's very frustrating. If he gets a one out contest where he's a good chance, great. But otherwise, to me he's better off being at ground level. Or on the lead. Particularly with his pace.

It comes back to one other thing too which separates Martin (and Ablett) from the rest. They don't fall over. I can't remember the last time I saw Martin even jump for a mark. But he reads the ball at ground level faster than anyone else. Small thing but so important.
Yeah Martin never tries to crash packs. Instead he's generally isolated on one player who he uses his strength to shift off the ball or he goes for the ground ball goal. Even against Collingwood, much of his work wasn't done through contested marks. It was more done by positioning and working his opponent off the ball. I get that he's tall, fast and strong, but, for whatever reason, Dangerfield isn't a good tall forward. Neither is Martin for that matter.

Raises the question though, why does he play like this? Is it Scott's directive to try and find a second key forward? It is Dangerfield thinking he can outmark anyone?
 

Rimmer

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The answer to this likely swings back and forth over time. Both are brilliant. Danger is a strong overhead mark which is not a strength for Dusty and Danger is likely a little more consistent but Dusty has the edge in every other category and he consistently fires in the big games. In each of Richmonds 3 recent premiership years Dusty has been huge. Ask me next year when Danger wins another Brownlow and Geelong wins a premiership ...
 

Partridge

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Yeah Martin never tries to crash packs. Instead he's generally isolated on one player who he uses his strength to shift off the ball or he goes for the ground ball goal. Even against Collingwood, much of his work wasn't done through contested marks. It was more done by positioning and working his opponent off the ball. I get that he's tall, fast and strong, but, for whatever reason, Dangerfield isn't a good tall forward. Neither is Martin for that matter.

Raises the question though, why does he play like this? Is it Scott's directive to try and find a second key forward? It is Dangerfield thinking he can outmark anyone?
A bit of both I think. I think Scott got seduced by Dangerfield's two games up forward in 2017 (the 5 goals v Hawthorn, and 4 goals v Sydney in the final). It's definitely tempting, but he's a much better midfielder.
 

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THE_GUN

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To think from that picture above with 5 geelong players in the frame to just Dustin Martin and he not only takes the ball on the boundary line but manages to avoid all these players including supposedly 1 of the greats who you see just waiting to receive the ball rather than going to bump Dusty off the line but Dusty takes the ball and kicks the goal of the year.

My Brother inlaw who is crazy Cats supporter said it best. With Danger in finals you just hope he plays a great game but with Dusty you just know he will
 

Jazny

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Dusty seems like a much better person than Danger ever will be or could be. He is the best player ever. 3 norm smiths! Incredible. So many horrible little nuffies on the first page.
 

Barry_Badrinath

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Remind which two games did he have no impact whatsoever again?

vs Richmond; 31 touches, 1.1, 5 tackles, 3 clearances, 9 clangers
vs Sydney; 26 touches, 4.3, 4 tackles, 2 clearances, 3 clangers
vs Adelaide; 24 touches, 2.3, 9 tackles, 5 clearances, 3 clangers


I think you're confusing Danger's impact with the result of the game. His overall finals averages are almost exactly the same as his overall h&a averages
That 2017 QF was one of the worst games Danger has played. He was atrocious that day.
 

Partridge

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Agree, Woj needs to go back and actually watch the games. Against Melbourne in 2018 he had twelve clangers and spent most of the night either kicking it to the opposition or kicking it out of bounds. Had little positive influence and at times should have given it to a player who was kicking better. Gave away six free kicks and only had three inside 50s.
It's the monstrous elephant in the room for Geelong supporters. Quite a few have been very vocal in the last few years about how good we are and particularly Dangerfield. No one wants to accept or acknowledge his poor games - which haven't been infrequent, and weren't uncommon at all in 2020 (it's still remarkable how little criticism his All-Australian selection - and captaincy - was for 2020. He was not remotely worthy of selection). You can't discuss this much on the Geelong board, too much of an echo chamber, and controversial discussions tend to get closed.

For a player of his reputation, especially in the footy media, he simply needs to justify that hype in finals. The harsh reality is he doesn't, and it may be simply he isn't close to being as good as we wanted to believe.
 

catscollector

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It's the monstrous elephant in the room for Geelong supporters. Quite a few have been very vocal in the last few years about how good we are and particularly Dangerfield. No one wants to accept or acknowledge his poor games - which haven't been infrequent, and weren't uncommon at all in 2020 (it's still remarkable how little criticism his All-Australian selection - and captaincy - was for 2020. He was not remotely worthy of selection). You can't discuss this much on the Geelong board, too much of an echo chamber, and controversial discussions tend to get closed.

For a player of his reputation, especially in the footy media, he simply needs to justify that hype in finals. The harsh reality is he doesn't, and it may be simply he isn't close to being as good as we wanted to believe.
We are not as good as what we think we are though.
It means Dangerfield has to try and elevate his game when he should have no right too. This is not a one man team on paper (like it was for Selwood 2012-2015).
Look at Dustin Martin, when Richmond are facing adversity, it is not just left to Martin, you see a a complete shift in output from a number of their players. This in turn allows Martin to get on the end of a lot forward fifty entries which he often successfully turns into scoreboard dominance.
Geelong face adversity and we have Selwood, (sometimes Menegola), Dangerfield and who else rises?

Duncan's good but he has his moments of missing in action in the finals.
Guthrie starts a game red hot only to have a 2-3 touches the next quarter.

Worryingly, Jeremy Cameron has shown a tendency to also hide away when the team is facing a quick exit. It's often been guys like Greene or Coniglio who have stood up tall in finals pressure.
 

nineteen eighty

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One key difference is that one plays his best games in H&A with a noticeable drop in finals. The other plays at a high level in H&A and lifts for finals. Noticeably lifts.

So why would that be? It's not because of playing style. It's purely mental. Danger is the opposite of Stevie J. SJ was obviously a very dangerous H&A player who lifted in finals. As was Gary Ayres.
 

nineteen eighty

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It's the monstrous elephant in the room for Geelong supporters. Quite a few have been very vocal in the last few years about how good we are and particularly Dangerfield. No one wants to accept or acknowledge his poor games - which haven't been infrequent, and weren't uncommon at all in 2020 (it's still remarkable how little criticism his All-Australian selection - and captaincy - was for 2020. He was not remotely worthy of selection). You can't discuss this much on the Geelong board, too much of an echo chamber, and controversial discussions tend to get closed.

For a player of his reputation, especially in the footy media, he simply needs to justify that hype in finals. The harsh reality is he doesn't, and it may be simply he isn't close to being as good as we wanted to believe.
You make some good points.

I would argue however that the criticism re his AA was immense. In no way did he deserve his HF spot let alone captain. He didn't even deserve a bench spot. Shame on the selectors. It was there.
 

Genghis Tron

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This thread speaks volumes of the Richmond supporter base as a whole.

Instead of celebrating and championing the culmination of the most difficult season in the history of VFL/AFL history, and a third premiership, they are here in droves, in fervent and rabid hatred for one of the best players of his generation.

So quick they are to criticise, to hate, that it reveals much about themselves. A deep, deep insecurity that runs through the legacy of the club and the mindset of their supporters. Insecure people often try to make you feel insecure themselves, they feel compelled to rub their achievements in the face of others, and constantly complain and bring others down.

It comes, in my view, from years, perhaps decades, of being the laughing stock of the competition. Being absolutely belted by Geelong for decades, continual disappointment, being the subject of intense mockery - it must take an emotional toll on a person and this shared abuse must be felt and lived through the supporter base as a whole. I first experienced it in the 2017 Qualifying Final. Never had I seen such disgraceful behaviour from a supporter base. Inappropriate remarks and glances were made to me in the toilets from dozens of Richmond supporters in the toilets at half-time. But it can almost be understood when you look at the recent history of the club.

In my time following the game, this level of pettiness and insecurity is completely unrivalled by rival clubs. Hawthorn, or even Collingwood, did not come close to this level of vitriol, bitterness, fixation and hatred of our club and of our players. It's not healthy and can only lead to unhappiness.

Don't let hatred become your legacy, Tigers supporters.
Mmmmmm because the AFL world as a whole were nothing but kind and generous towards Richmond for 37 years. The abuse and disgusting comments slung our way didn't stop over that time, you might be right about this thread speaking volumes about Richmond supporters but the 37 years preceding spoke volumes about all supporters as a whole. We're all *******s.

You all showed us how to act with "class" with your treatment of us for years. Now you can lay in the bed you've made.
 

Partridge

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Mmmmmm because the AFL world as a whole were nothing but kind and generous towards Richmond for 37 years. The abuse and disgusting comments slung our way didn't stop over that time, you might be right about this thread speaking volumes about Richmond supporters but the 37 years preceding spoke volumes about all supporters as a whole. We're all *******s.

You all showed us how to act with "class" with your treatment of us for years. Now you can lay in the bed you've made.
Can't argue with that statement at all. We went through a very similar thing.

Plenty of opposition fans can tolerate or even "like" your team, providing you are no threat, and depending on the arrogance of the supporter, know your place. What they don't like is when you dare to start winning, and even worse, become genuinely successful by winning premierships. That apparently is just too much.

And like all bullies, when the maligned team turns around and starts handing out some smackings, the supporters tend to throw their hands aloft and plead "why are you so mean?"
 

Genghis Tron

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Can't argue with that statement at all. We went through a very similar thing.

Plenty of opposition fans can tolerate or even "like" your team, providing you are no threat, and depending on the arrogance of the supporter, know your place. What they don't like is when you dare to start winning, and even worse, become genuinely successful by winning premierships. That apparently is just too much.

And like all bullies, when the maligned team turns around and starts handing out some smackings, the supporters tend to throw their hands aloft and plead "why are you so mean?"
Carlton and Essendon supporters are going to be shocking when they come good. And rightfully so too.
 

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