Opinion Dustin Martin is better than Dangerfield

[Ghost Patrol]

Champion Data median scores of the six best midfielders of 2019 (plus Dusty)

125 Fyfe
121 Dangerfield
116 Neale
116 Cripps
109 Bontempelli
107 Kelly
104 Martin


Fyfe
154, 147, 147, 145, 145, 144, 132, 129, 128, 126, 124, 124, 110, 108, 104, 101, 101, 91, 76, 63

Dangerfield
163, 156, 154, 149, 147, 146, 146, 141, 137, 130, 128, 127, 115, 106, 101, 99, 99, 97, 94, 85, 83, 66, 57, 26

Neale
190, 177, 151, 148, 142, 140, 140, 139, 137, 127, 120, 118, 114, 114, 108, 106, 103, 101, 98, 91, 85, 79, 79, 47

Cripps
194, 169, 157, 152, 148, 134, 126, 123, 120, 116, 116, 115, 110, 93, 89, 85, 78, 78, 73, 66

Bontempelli
166, 158, 146, 146, 140, 132, 130, 127, 124, 118, 112, 109, 104, 99, 99, 97, 96, 95, 93, 90, 83, 73, 70

Kelly
162, 140, 138, 129, 128, 121, 120, 115, 114, 111, 110, 108, 107, 106, 97, 96, 94, 92, 87, 86, 82, 76, 74, 74, 39

Martin 2019
138, 137, 132, 128, 115, 113, 111, 109, 108, 108, 104, 104, 100, 98, 98, 97, 92, 89, 89, 78, 66, 62, 60

Martin 2017
166, 159, 158, 155, 150, 150, 146, 144, 142, 130, 125, 121, 121, 119, 118, 114, 113, 111, 106, 105, 93, 92, 87, 74, 54


It seems like a few Tigers fans in this thread are bundling together Dusty's 2017 season with his 2019 finals series.
The reality is he never really came close to replicating his unbelievable 2017 form this season.
As good as he is, others were better this year, Danger included.

Yeah but which player won the fantasy football norm smith?

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

If Richardson in his prime was available in today's open market and you had Martin available now, Richardson would be worth a lot more and would get Franklin-like offers as he was a freakish talent like very few we ever saw for his size.

Same would be said for Ablett Snr or Wayne Carey.
Those guys played in an era where it was back and forth and the only way to succeed was to be dominant in the air and on the ground.

As great as what Martin is, and I'm a massive fan of his, I think it's easy to forget what Ablett Junior accomplished because for a long period of time (07-14), he averaged 31 disposals (13.5 were contested), 5.5 clearances, 0.7 assists, 1.3 goals, won 2 Brownlow medals, 2 premierships, 5 MVP's, 5 B&F's, 8 All Australian's and is widely regarded as the greatest midfielder of all time.

Richo might’ve, but Dusty actually did get “Franklin-like” offers at the end of 2017.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Hodge is very much like Martin. Both players not top 10 for nearly decade of their careers then in september turn into superman. Hodge imo better than Mitchell in September and Martin>Danger in September. But otherwise most of careers behind main pack

Dusty blossomed early. Suspension cost him the rising star, was getting Leigh Matthews comparisons in his 2nd season and polled double digit brownlow votes. Was a top ~20 player by about year 5 and number one in the league by year 7. By the time he retires he’ll have spent most of his career as one of the absolute best in the league.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Yeah but which player won the fantasy football norm smith?

Heath Shaw did

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

BS. There is 22 in a team. You need probably 18 good players to compete at GF level. He might have got the NS but he was NOT your best player on the day.

He absolutely was Richmond’s best on the day.

 

[Bazzar]

Heath Shaw did

And Melbourne were Champion Data's March premiers. Best team for 2019 apparently

 

[ryancash]

So far, not one richmond supporter has been willing to answer my question about dusty: why does he always try to kick the ball on the outside of his foot, and why does he always snap the ball from set shots when a normal drop punt would suffice?

Well you would have to ask Dusty that himself. There is no reason a Richmond supporter would know anymore than you about it. I'm sure you have your theory...what is it? And why is it so important to you?

 

[woota]

Well you would have to ask Dusty that himself. There is no reason a Richmond supporter would know anymore than you about it. I'm sure you have your theory...what is it? And why is it so important to you?

If I asked him to his face, he would probably tell me to get ****ed, so I will never know by asking him. That's why we can only theorize about it. Maybe someone close to him like trent cotchin would tell me why he does it?

 

[ryancash]

If I asked him to his face, he would probably tell me to get f’ed, so I will never know by asking him. That's why we can only theorize about it. Maybe someone close to him like trent cotchin would tell me why he does it?

Well my theory is this....because he can and he is confident its the best option for success at that moment. Seems to work for him majority of the time.

 

[HTT]

So far, not one richmond supporter has been willing to answer my question about dusty: why does he always try to kick the ball on the outside of his foot, and why does he always snap the ball from set shots when a normal drop punt would suffice?

Outside of the boot: I’m not sure why he does it, I suppose it’s how he’s always done it and it works pretty well so there’s no point changing
Snap for goal: it’s been the growing trend in players for over a decade now, from personal experience, over short range, that style *feels* more controlled than a drop punt which you can spray.

 

[HTT]

Richo might’ve, but Dusty actually did get “Franklin-like” offers at the end of 2017.

Nope


They were bigger than Buddy’s

 

[Richo83]

Hodge is very much like Martin. Both players not top 10 for nearly decade of their careers then in september turn into superman. Hodge imo better than Mitchell in September and Martin>Danger in September. But otherwise most of careers behind main pack

Name me a moment in Hodge's career where he was considered one of if not the best midfielders in the game. Never happened, whereas in 2017 Martin was. He's also easily in the top ten players in the league at the moment. I rate Hodge but he's a tier below the likes of Martin, Dangerfield, Fyfe.

 

[Richo83]

BS. There is 22 in a team. You need probably 18 good players to compete at GF level. He might have got the NS but he was NOT your best player on the day.

So what? Goes for every player. Also, who was better than Martin on grand final day?

 

[DAlembert]

So what? Goes for every player. Also, who was better than Martin on grand final day?

So what? You saw the game you tell me...not that hard to work out. Just fits your skewed narrative that DM got the NS.

 

[AuntyBlindEye]

I can't speak for the man, but I would assume because they work for him. He manages to find a man or goal more often than not. Seems to work. He's going alright.

So far, not one richmond supporter has been willing to answer my question about dusty: why does he always try to kick the ball on the outside of his foot, and why does he always snap the ball from set shots when a normal drop punt would suffice?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

If I asked him to his face, he would probably tell me to get f’ed, so I will never know by asking him. That's why we can only theorize about it. Maybe someone close to him like trent cotchin would tell me why he does it?

get f'ed

 

[Lolbert]

Can this be moved to the Richmond board already? You'd think tiger fans would be happy enough just enjoying their dominant win.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Both gun players, Dusty more of a match winner for me but splitting hairs a little.
Both champion footballers.

 

[Richo83]

So what? You saw the game you tell me...not that hard to work out. Just fits your skewed narrative that DM got the NS.

I thought Martin was clear best on ground. Kicked the side's first goal when the giants were up and flying, then his second goal kept momentum. Had the second most contested disposals in the game and had two clanger disposals out of 22. If this was a home and away game, no giants player would get a vote and the AFL generally awards most votes to the best midfielder of the day. Why no give it to Martin?

 

[Richo83]

So far, not one richmond supporter has been willing to answer my question about dusty: why does he always try to kick the ball on the outside of his foot, and why does he always snap the ball from set shots when a normal drop punt would suffice?

Modern players snap the ball for the same reason soccer players and rugby players use their instep to kick the ball, it allows them to have more control. As for the first, sometimes it's because he likes to run left creating space and dragging players to the left, only to pass to the right. He doesn't always do that though.

 

[DAlembert]

I thought Martin was clear best on ground. Kicked the side's first goal when the giants were up and flying, then his second goal kept momentum. Had the second most contested disposals in the game and had two clanger disposals out of 22. If this was a home and away game, no giants player would get a vote and the AFL generally awards most votes to the best midfielder of the day. Why no give it to Martin?

Heh I actually have no problem with him getting it. It's all part of the AFL machine and how it works. To say he dominated in the finals and that others were not ARGUABLY as good is nonsense. He played his role on the day against terrible opposition...Riewoldt..Houli and 1 or 2 no namers were just as entitled to win a NS but of course the "glamour " player was awarded.

 

[Richo83]

LeBron is famous for underperforming and losing in the finals

Not really. This is a ESPN hot take they like to run because it gets clicks. If you talk to someone who knows basketball, they will tell you that he struggled at times because:

a) his teammates were s**t
b) he got schemed against, especially against the mavs

He's also a victim of his own lofty standard

 

[Richo83]

Heh I actually have no problem with him getting it. It's all part of the AFL machine and how it works. To say he dominated in the finals and that others were not ARGUABLY as good is nonsense. He played his role on the day against terrible opposition...Riewoldt..Houli and 1 or 2 no namers were just as entitled to win a NS but of course the "glamour " player was awarded.

Why is it nonsense to say he dominated in the finals? Kicked 12 goals and was best on ground on two of the three. Houli played a nice game but it's an easier position. Riewoldt got hot against a guy on one leg and even then, the giants lost the game in the midfield. And guess who led the midfield charge?

I can maybe justify Edwards as he's a very creative player. But Martin was IMO best on ground.

 

[bigpapagman]

If Dusty keeps trending upwards, and having September success by dominating personally and winning premierships as a part of the team, he'll probably be viewed within the top 3-4 players ever to play the game. He'll probably win another Brownlow before he's done. Maybe another flag.

Probably end up with 350 games, couple of Brownlows, few flags, 5 or 6 hundred goals or some s**t.

No point doing this now, view them both on their body of work when they retire. Which if it happened right now, Dusty is a year younger, and has achieved a ******* heap more than Dangerfield.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

The Brownlow is really just a measure of player's standout BOG performances. Umpires, fans and media favour the flashy types. For Richmond, that's Dusty and Bachar.

Best and Fairest awards are a more accurate measure of a player's season because all the players are graded for every game they play. Not just the 1 or 2 best players. The Richmond coaches award every player between zero and five votes after every game, including finals. Every Geelong player receives a score out of 15 after each game. So good games are counted, average games are counted and bad games are counted.

You hit the nail on the head about roles - the coaches know the role they've asked of each player. Those who don't perform their role get marked down. Umpires and fans aren't always privy to this. They mostly judge players by the stats. They mainly focus on the stars like Dusty and Danger. The coaches have a much better idea about the value of each player's contribution. The coaches and assistant coaches are the only true experts. Light years ahead of everyone else.

e.g. I ignore Shane Edwards getting zero Brownlow votes and Grimes getting only 3.. Pfft.. Whatever...
Hardwick and co voted them as Richmond's 2nd and 3rd best for 2019 which i think is a far more accurate assessment of their seasons.

Rich: 1) Prestia, 2) Edwards, 3) Grimes, 4) Vlastuin, 5) Lynch, 6) Martin, 7) Lambert, 8) Houli, 9) Astbury
Geel: 1) Dangerfield, 2) Kelly, 3) Stewart, 4) Hawkins, 5) Blicavs, 6) Dahlhaus, 7) Ablett, 8) Duncan, 9) Selwood

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Let's not forget: Dangerfield finished 2nd in the AFLCA Coaches award with 90 votes. He polled votes in 14 of 21 games.
Martin finished 11th with 71 votes. He polled votes in 11 of 20 games.

Even if we include the votes from finals matches for the Gary Ayres award, Danger still finished ahead of Dusty.
Dangerfield: 97 votes (polled in 15 of 24 games); Martin: 90 votes (polled in 13 of 23 games)

Dusty ended the year on a high with the ultimate team success. He grabbed all the September glory, but he didn't clearly have the better individual season. Pretty close, I reckon. Danger just in front if we take all games into account.

Great post. Like it a lot.

And justifies why Prestia was an ideal candidate for AA, but was overlooked for flashier, less effective footballers.