List Mgmt. "Dynamic Shaping." The new List Management.

[DarkSaint]

I have to agree with the OP and his Hillbillie mate. I have had the same opinion for a while about we should be looking at trading out our top pick for a established young gun in the age of 22-24 bracket almost every year. Whilst using the second round onwards to unearth solid players while adding established guns by trading.

 

[plugger66]

Spot on Drake. I’ve mentioned a couple of times in the past, Geelong essentially don’t rate draft picks. They just see them as a way to get what they want via a trade. It takes out the unknown factor. They would rather pay slightly overs for someone they know can play the roll the need filled.

Teams need the base to start off of course, but that’s exactly what we have. And so we should after 8 years without finals. But no point looking back, it’s all about forward. We’ve done the hard yards, had players like Hill, Jones and possible another just this year want to join. Another year or two filling gaps and we should be there.

The then key is not to lose it, like we did post Thomas & Lyon era. We simply have to be smarter off the field.

Geelong won their flags with draft picks. They then didn’t rate them and whilst it helped them stay up the ladder it hasn’t got them a flag. There is no one way to do it right. You need a combination of drafts and trades. You also need to pick the right players and not get to many of the one type like we seem to have done with our midfield.

 

[Mikka84]

Geelong won their flags with draft picks. They then didn’t rate them and whilst it helped them stay up the ladder it hasn’t got them a flag. There is no one way to do it right. You need a combination of drafts and trades. You also need to pick the right players and not get to many of the one type like we seem to have done with our midfield.

Sure.. you need the base to start with. But from then on, I believe you can trade most of the time to stay up. Occasionally, if that pick doesn’t get you the need, take it to the draft.

 

[DarkSaint]

Geelong won their flags with draft picks. They then didn’t rate them and whilst it helped them stay up the ladder it hasn’t got them a flag. There is no one way to do it right. You need a combination of drafts and trades. You also need to pick the right players and not get to many of the one type like we seem to have done with our midfield.

I'd say a huge part why they won their flag was due to the amount of father son selections they got.

 

[gringo2011]

Sure.. you need the base to start with. But from then on, I believe you can trade most of the time to stay up. Occasionally, if that pick doesn’t get you the need, take it to the draft.

For sides out of the 8 it's not a great system because you have to over pay to get them. No guns come for success so you have to blow sides out of the water, it also doubles the trade price if you consider the s**t sides have the top 8 picks where the elite talent often comes from. A pick 16 for a finals side is pretty much a less than 50% chance of a gun probably around 20% with out checking. It makes much more sense.

It doesn't hurt to over pay initially but you get enough guys on million dollar contracts over 5 years it starts to pile up. If rumours are to be believed North couldn't afford the kind of contract it offered Kelly last time to get three good players in and haven't made the difference.

Geelong are good now because they draft well on top of recruiting. Only two of the 10 best were recruits on FA points (Touhy on 3 and Danger on 7) in their last final.

Danger, Ablett (if you count he returned), Touhy, Dalhouse, Stanley were ring ins that played that game.

In the last 5 years they have bought in Kelly, Stewart, Ratugolea, Atlkins, Kolodjasnij, Menagola, Miers, O'Connor, Narkle, Bews, Parfitt who all played I that last final.

I think we played our last game with more ring ins than they played in that final, Bruce, Hanners, Steele, Membrey, Carlisle, Savage, Rowe...and Hind if you count Essendon's VFL team.

To me it sounds good but as I said it has to be buttressed by good drafting. The cats have half a dozen more really good kids not playing, Constable is only one of them.

 

[Diehard Saint]

I have to agree with the OP and his Hillbillie mate. I have had the same opinion for a while about we should be looking at trading out our top pick for a established young gun in the age of 22-24 bracket almost every year. Whilst using the second round onwards to unearth solid players while adding established guns by trading.

Especially as we already have Clarke, Coff, King and Bytel as youngsters yet to make their mark.

 

[plugger66]

I'd say a huge part why they won their flag was due to the amount of father son selections they got.

There were plenty of others who were drafted

 

[Drake Huggins]

Geelong won their flags with draft picks. They then didn’t rate them and whilst it helped them stay up the ladder it hasn’t got them a flag. There is no one way to do it right. You need a combination of drafts and trades. You also need to pick the right players and not get to many of the one type like we seem to have done with our midfield.

12 finals series in 13 years. Since 2011, while they've only won 1 flag, they have consistently finished near the top, despite most of the draft picks from the late 90's and naughties being gone or very much past their best. In that time they have used one top ten draft pick.

How do you explain that level of sustained success using your draft pick argument? I know you love nothing more than being contrary for the sake of it, but this is a stretch, even for you.

The facts, not just at Geelong, but the other clubs I've mentioned make a mockery of your argument.

 

[gringo2011]

12 finals series in 13 years. Since 2011, while they've only won 1 flag, they have consistently finished near the top, despite most of the draft picks from the late 90's and naughties being gone or very much past their best. In that time they have used one top ten draft pick.

How do you explain that level of sustained success using your draft pick argument? I know you love nothing more than being contrary for the sake of it, but this is a stretch, even for you.

The facts, not just at Geelong, but the other clubs I've mentioned make a mockery of your argument.

Read my post above, we have more than them, they just have the better one, got Danger who went on to a Brownlow and then guys like Stanley B grade at best, Dalhouse meh but good, Rowan okay player, Touhy very good, Zac Smith lemon, Henderson journey man good player.

Most of their success has been finding guns in the late parts of drafts or from alternative streams. Menagola and Kelly were WAFL guns and now we all raid state leagues. Tom Stewart was a country footy player, Narkle and Constable were with picks that you start to upgrade rookies with. They only have 3 really old boys left in Ablett, Harry Taylor and Selwood left. All three were good but not essential players this year. Their cliff lead demise has been over estimated.

 

[DarkSaint]

There were plenty of others who were drafted

The core group were all father sons.

 

[plugger66]

The core group were all father sons.

Selwood Chapman Enright etc. many all Australians who weren’t father son. All drafted.

 

[plugger66]

12 finals series in 13 years. Since 2011, while they've only won 1 flag, they have consistently finished near the top, despite most of the draft picks from the late 90's and naughties being gone or very much past their best. In that time they have used one top ten draft pick.

How do you explain that level of sustained success using your draft pick argument? I know you love nothing more than being contrary for the sake of it, but this is a stretch, even for you.

The facts, not just at Geelong, but the other clubs I've mentioned make a mockery of your argument.

I’m talking Geelong and flags not Geelong and staying up the ladder. Their success was built on drafting not trading. No idea how you can say I’m being contrary. Its fact. And it’s not an argument. It’s there for all to see. The fact is you need to use the draft and trade not one more than the other. We have plenty of players traded in our side yet we are no where near a flag. Mockery ok then.

 

[VDS66]

I think we agree that both teams started by drafting and have switched to maintain competitive.

Given the way FA has panned out, it was the right way to go. Also, staying competitive helps attract better players.

Difference being as I see it...

Firstly, they better managed their cap, when we did not. As a result they were better able to leverage their existing draft core to stay competitive.

We on the other hand did not. So we had to trade out good players to balance out cap, and could not trade in specific types to keep us going.

Secondly, their sustained success meant that didn't have to draft as much during compromised drafts.

We went to the well at the worst possible time and squandered our opportunity.

In hindsight, if we didn't screw our cap and held on to BJ, Ben and Dal, things might have been different IMO.

We too could have traded our first picks for good players and have the cap space to accommodate them.

Pelchens plan harked back to early 2000s strategy that Hawks used to accumulate picks. That plan was obsolete, but likely necessary due to our cap situation.

Irrespective of him being the right or wrong person, he was basically thrown into the ring with one hand tied behind his back (salary cap) and his bootlaces tied together (compromised draft).

With the calibre of champions we still had post Lyon, had we stayed mid table we may have attracted some decent players, but the key would have been to redraw contracts with them and an acceptable pay cut.

Our decisions and poor management means we had basically had to wind back to 2001 and start again.

 

[DarkSaint]

Selwood Chapman Enright etc. many all Australians who weren’t father son. All drafted.

True. Helps when you have one of the best fullback to ever play the game in Scarlett and also arguably one of the best players of all time in Ablett for nothing. Don't forget Hawkins etc. Easy to draft well when you have a spine that good.

 

[plugger66]

True. Helps when you have one of the best fullback to ever play the game in Scarlett and also arguably one of the best players of all time in Ablett for nothing. Don't forget Hawkins etc. Easy to draft well when you have a spine that good.

Well in the last flag they drafted 21 of the 22 players. 2 were father son. They killed the draft

 

[VDS66]

Well in the last flag they drafted 21 of the 22 players. 2 were father son. They killed the draft

I think that's the point though.

That last flag was as a result of 8 years of drafting.

It's what they've done since to remain competitive.

Let's look at Melbourne... Played finals in 2006 and heavily drafted since then. Result?

Bulldogs? They hit the draft two years before us in 2011 and drafted well but still kept their main core.

 

[plugger66]

I think that's the point though.

That last flag was as a result of 8 years of drafting.

It's what they've done since to remain competitive.

Let's look at Melbourne... Played finals in 2006 and heavily drafted since then. Result?

Bulldogs? They hit the draft two years before us in 2011 and drafted well but still kept their main core.

Yes so there is no right or wrong way. We have traded plenty of players in the last few years but our best players are mostly from the draft. When you are a poor side you have to pay overs to trade forgood players

 

[Moral Decay]

It does beg the question of what people rate as success and it's awkward, is success making finals or is it winning grand finals?

 

[VDS66]

It does beg the question of what people rate as success and it's awkward, is success making finals or is it winning grand finals?

I guess you gotta be in it to win it.

 

[Diehard Saint]

It does beg the question of what people rate as success and it's awkward, is success making finals or is it winning grand finals?

In our case, making finals would be a successful start

 

[VDS66]

Yes so there is no right or wrong way. We have traded plenty of players in the last few years but our best players are mostly from the draft. When you are a poor side you have to pay overs to trade forgood players

Agree. Regardless of your strategy, you need the right people on place to execute the bloody thing correctly.

Back to your point t about being a poor club, had we stayed up like Geelong since 2010 our membership and financial situation would be far better than it is and we wouldn't be a poor club.

 

[Saint Watto]

We on the other hand did not. So we had to trade out good players to balance out cap, and could not trade in specific types to keep us going.

Secondly, their sustained success meant that didn't have to draft as much during compromised drafts.

We went to the well at the worst possible time and squandered our opportunity.

A great insightful post there VDS...……...you IMO absolutely nailed what happened to us.

 

[Moral Decay]

In our case, making finals would be a successful start

For sure but I know fans of Swans and Geelong that are really pissed off, they look at the finals years as wasted opportunities, recruiting stop gaps rather than potential that leads to success. Just as there can only be one winner, the rest are just runners up.

If the list doesn't improve every year, then for the team that wasn't good enough last year, how do they get to be good enough this year and the year after?

At least we don't have to kid ourselves (we do have Gringo after all), but making finals covers a multitude of sins.

How many club admins are content with making finals, Crows, Eagles, Bombers, Swans, Port, GWS, Cats, Pies? It sells memberships, mostly keeps the fans from burning the club down but it's still not a flag.

Clarko is the only coach I've heard say that being able to win the flag was the only reason, that making the finals but just making up the numbers was pointless. Also the only coach I've heard say that he didn't care about winning the trade period, he had more impirtant things to do.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Clearly Geelong, Hawks, Richmond and GWS's list management are all wrong, and Plugger is right.
Drake, your mate was obviously talking out his arse.

 

[austinnn]

Worpel as well. What was he? Pick 45? Absolute gun and exactly what we need. They do it too often for it to be pure luck. **** those 'orrible 'awks!

10 picks after Oscar Clavarino