Fantasy Dynasty League 2008 - Discussion

[Dagless]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

LBers limited to five actually makes FA between rounds, ya know, interesting in most cases...

 

[Exe Gesis]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

Garbologists would actually understand, cos they'd appreciate/understand that process of "throwing something away", studying its value and coming up with a conclusion.

You're just a Law-man, who like to weave webs and spin-doctor and are anal/pedantic about "legislation" per se. Letter of the law types.

 

[Woodson]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

But minor changes like the LB limits can be changed without the others, you then included it in with the rest, with changes some who wanted the LB change didnt want

Its not as simple as option A or option B like you made it

Good point Dspeed as GG throws in the 3b clause to option B which makes the 'LB' numbers very equivocal.

System B
1. Scoring changes as per images below.
2. Starting team is 20 players....10 offense, 10 defense (3 DB, 3 DL, 3 LB, 1 DP).
3. LB maximum "unlimited" only because DT/DE and CB/S are 5 each meaning 10 max for DL and 10 for DB but only 5 still for LB.
3b. Or, LB, DL, DB, all "unlimited" + IDP scoring brought closer to itself.

But strangely enough, dspeed voted for option A!!

 

[dspeed]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

But strangely enough, dspeed voted for option A!!

Not strange because in the end my opposition to the scoring changes outweighed my support for the minor LB change

Thats exactly why it shouldnt be two options like was presented, it should be several options that separate each issue

Its as if GG realised many people supported LB change, so used it in option B as a sweetner to entice support for the scoring changes

 

[Exe Gesis]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

So what are the other problems stemming from everyone having one or two more LB's, everyone having one or two less WR's/ TE's or RBs?

Honestly GG, there is no dynamic change, it's just one small change everyone wants.

It's like saying, let's have unlimited QBs. Because they score more than other OPs then everyone would horde as many as they could. a) for their own use, but also b) to prevent others from acquiring them.

In the current scoring, LBs score a shitload more than DL and more than DBs. So if they're unlimited, people are going to naturally only roster 2 DL as needed (cos they dont score well at all, so why bother having more than 2) and may roster about 2-4 DBs. So what'll happen is everyone has 10 LBs, 2 DL, and 2 DB.

Which suddenly causes a major roster dynamic change. Gone is the balance sought for OP and DPs. Now you have a situation where the whole dynasty comp is focused on QB and LB. Once people start having unlimited LBs, and hording 10 of them, then future changes to reduce it, and future changes to make all IDPs score more evenly, wont happen because people will bitch...."but it's not fair, i just cut 4 DL and 4 DB to have 20 LBs on my roster and now you want to change it and make it balanced".

The whole idea for dynasty originally was what cutthroat scoring and roster balance is like. 50:50 OP and DP. And nice balance thruout of scoring, to make drafts and waivers interesting, and requiring people to value all positions equally important to roster a good balance of them.

Having unlimited LB on its own, with no scoring changes and no unlimited DB/DL as well, will just continue to mess up the whole comp.

 

[redragger]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

The reason why people voted A is because everything was lumped together in the same basket. The 'LB unlimited' debate was a separate poll, and people voted accordingly (even though only 19 of 36 voted). Many of the changes would be voted through if they too were individually polled, yet if we did that we'd have polls coming out our arses and nobody would bother. As they say in the classics too many polls spoil the broth...

 

[dspeed]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

GG, cmon, you are exaggerating, it wouldnt mess up the entire comp as you say

People will not do as you suggest and carry 2 DL, 2 DB and 10 LB, most will carry around 4 DL, 4 DB and 6 or 7 LB

The issue with the polls in the simplification into A or B, rather then breaking it down

 

[Dagless]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

Why need more than 5 then? You would have 3 key LBers (ie non dropped players) and then you swap out the last 2 weekly to get good matchups. Otherwise you just have people hording a whole lot of players.

 

[Woodson]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

Not strange because in the end my opposition to the scoring changes outweighed my support for the minor LB change

Thats exactly why it shouldnt be two options like was presented, it should be several options that separate each issue

Its as if GG realised many people supported LB change, so used it in option B as a sweetner to entice support for the scoring changes

GG used to be BIG on 'intrigue' once upon a time. Now he just got his colours mixed with the whites in the wash and we're wearing it.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

Too many polls im against as well. no one cares to vote. and then one day someone absent for 10 years decides to mosey into the meeting center thread and complains, "when was this brought in, why wasnt i informed".

Plus, the more valid reason anyway is because there's just a lot of problems in the comp and to fix them all requires a system overhaul approach...one group of changes to vote in or out. Because they'll be designed to all work together to solve all the issues together. Bringing in one thing only one year, then something else another year, etc, wont fix anything and will jsut create added problems like the example i gave above....where suddenly everyone has 10 LBs, cuts all their DLs/DBs, and then digs their heels in refusing any future changes that affect LBs.

The PROPER fix to the LB thing is like i said.....cutthroat IDP scoring, unlimited DB/DL/LB, cos then they're all balanced scoring equally and so people WILL roster an equal balance of DL, LB, and DB.

 

[larkis]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

It's like saying, let's have unlimited QBs. Because they score more than other OPs then everyone would horde as many as they could. a) for their own use, but also b) to prevent others from acquiring them.

In the current scoring, LBs score a shitload more than DL and more than DBs. So if they're unlimited, people are going to naturally only roster 2 DL as needed (cos they dont score well at all, so why bother having more than 2) and may roster about 2-4 DBs. So what'll happen is everyone has 10 LBs, 2 DL, and 2 DB.

Which suddenly causes a major roster dynamic change. Gone is the balance sought for OP and DPs. Now you have a situation where the whole dynasty comp is focused on QB and LB. Once people start having unlimited LBs, and hording 10 of them, then future changes to reduce it, and future changes to make all IDPs score more evenly, wont happen because people will bitch...."but it's not fair, i just cut 4 DL and 4 DB to have 20 LBs on my roster and now you want to change it and make it balanced".

The whole idea for dynasty originally was what cutthroat scoring and roster balance is like. 50:50 OP and DP. And nice balance thruout of scoring, to make drafts and waivers interesting, and requiring people to value all positions equally important to roster a good balance of them.

Having unlimited LB on its own, with no scoring changes and no unlimited DB/DL as well, will just continue to mess up the whole comp.

Anyone that thinks that having ten LB's is a good idea will end up failing anyway. The same LB's still perform week after week, all you'll see if only a few more LB's being picked up (Some sack machines, a few tackle machines and a young gun). There is still an incentive to keep depth at D-Line (Who knows who is the next big thing there) and DB (Numerous factors).

All you are doing is basing your assumption on everyone hoarding LBs. If they want LBs, let them have them, I'll be happy spreading my depth across my team.

Also on the point of people voting A over B, there were so many changes occuring, it was never going to go through. If your so concerned about a lot of changes occuring, get people to vote at them one at a time over a three day period.

Eg, Period One: Extend limit on LB's to 10. People vote yes
Period Two: Improve scoring on DL and DB to x. People vote no
Period Three: Decrease points for QB. People for yes.

This way, you can get at least a few changes you want without changing it too much.

 

[Dagless]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

Anyone that thinks that having ten LB's is a good idea will end up failing anyway. The same LB's still perform week after week, all you'll see if only a few more LB's being picked up (Some sack machines, a few tackle machines and a young gun).

ie more hording rather than trying to promote good team management and waiver/FA rotation...

 

[Woodson]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

Why need more than 5 then? You would have 3 key LBers (ie non dropped players) and then you swap out the last 2 weekly to get good matchups. Otherwise you just have people hording a whole lot of players.

Are you kidding me? There are byes/ injuries to contend with when the comp really goes into overdrive... I was struggling with 5 on more than two occassions... I was hoping the LB's restriction would be lifted and surprisingly Zarko, there is alot more LB available and of course you'll have to 'CUT' someone to make way so the hoarding isn't as much the issue if many choose to have a LB as a IDP. Hoarding 2+ QB's was my biggest beef tbh.

 

[Woodson]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

Also on the point of people voting A over B, there were so many changes occuring, it was never going to go through. If your so concerned about a lot of changes occuring, get people to vote at them one at a time over a three day period.

Eg, Period One: Extend limit on LB's to 10. People vote yes
Period Two: Improve scoring on DL and DB to x. People vote no
Period Three: Decrease points for QB. People for yes.

This way, you can get at least a few changes you want without changing it too much.

I agree, well pointed out Larkis. GG, get to work on the new POLLS. But I think 10 LB's is a tad excessive. 8 tops.

 

[Dagless]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

I agree, well pointed out Larkis. GG, get to work on the new POLLS. But I think 10 LB's is a tad excessive. 8 tops.

I think the issue is you CAN'T set it to 8... It's either 5 or unlimited.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

Yeah, that's the problem, only have 5 max or unlimited. If i had option to set it to 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10, obviously id set it to what i could.

Anyway, really the only solution to it is what i said....unlimited for all IDPs + cutthroat scoring for IDPs.

 

[dspeed]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

Also on the point of people voting A over B, there were so many changes occuring, it was never going to go through. If your so concerned about a lot of changes occuring, get people to vote at them one at a time over a three day period.

Eg, Period One: Extend limit on LB's to 10. People vote yes
Period Two: Improve scoring on DL and DB to x. People vote no
Period Three: Decrease points for QB. People for yes.

This way, you can get at least a few changes you want without changing it too much.

Thats the big issue. Nail. Hammer. Head.

Fact is combining them all simply reduces the chance of any change because if there is one issue people dont like then they are more likely to say No. By combining it you are just shooting yourself in the foot by restricting any changes.

You want to reduce the flaws you see, by splitting it up and then possibly get at least some fixed, how is that not a benefit?

I know you want everything fixed at once, but in absence of that situation, why dont you accept having 1 or 2 fixed?

 

[dspeed]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

Anyway, really the only solution to it is what i said....unlimited for all IDPs + cutthroat scoring for IDPs.

That is your opinion, others believe that simply changing LB limit is fine by itself

 

[redragger]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

Thats the big issue. Nail. Hammer. Head.

Fact is combining them all simply reduces the chance of any change because if there is one issue people dont like then they are more likely to say No. By combining it you are just shooting yourself in the foot by restricting any changes.

You want to reduce the flaws you see, by splitting it up and then possibly get at least some fixed, how is that not a benefit?

I know you want everything fixed at once, but in absence of that situation, why dont you accept having 1 or 2 fixed?

This is exactly what I said a few posts back, except having a million different polls doesn't work, people don't bother voting...

 

[Exe Gesis]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

I understand what dspeed is saying about one big group of changes has less likelihood etc. But the comp needs it, and if unlimited LBs came in alone people will dig their heels in.

Just look at it realistically. LBs score the most. People will roster 8 or more of them. Ok, fast forward to 2010. GG says, ok everyone, NOW i want to bring in cutthroat IDP scoring (ie, LB scoring is reduced and DL/DB increased), AND making DB/DL unlimited as well.

People are going to say...."no way, i just cut 5 DEs that i really like, and 3 DBs too. now i have 8 LBs that are all made worthless because you want to reduce their scoring. I just drafted 3 young LBs. I couldve drafted all these other great young DEs and DBs instead. Sorry, but i refuse to change now. Just leave it as is, the comps fine, blah blah blah.

Example....right now, forget the whole IDP/LB thing for a minute. I would like to make all the OPs equal scoring as well. Like cutthroat. But people are against it. Some really aggressively against it with the same comment...."no, i drafted all these QBs on that scoring basis, now youre just trying to ruin my roster, if id known thered be scoring changes id have drafted a RB or WR instead of a QB, etc".

If youre not seeing many embracing a change to the OP scoring, to create more balance and interest there, the same thing is only going to happen with LBs as well IF that is brought in by itself without the other IDP precautionary measures.

Only have to look at what Dspeed said the other page....hey gg i need to know asap, is it unlimited LBs or not, because if it is, then i wont cut all these LBs and will look to draft this and that LB as well. So if in 2010 i do try to change the LB scoring and increase DB/DL, youre just going to get people digging their heels saying "no".

Id rather we just do one big drastic system overhaul, that everyone can FORWARDLY prepare for.....like this offseason was supposed to be about. Before the 34 keeper cuts, me bringing in the cutthroat scoring and roster changes and everyone then going over their roster in preparation for the 2009 season, knowing exactly who they want to keep/cut in preparation for 2009. Knowing it wont EVER change again.

If you change one little thing a season at a time, it's just going to keep rocking the boat year in year out.

 

[Mordikai]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

If you were an Engineering student at university, instead of Law, you'd appreciate and understand that better.

i am an engineering student at university.... and i dont get what you keep going on about gg!!!

 

[Exe Gesis]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

It looks like this offseason was pissed away. People have already started or finished making roster cuts. The draft is not far away. The vote is stalled at 12:7 and isnt even exactly the scoring system i want used. What exists in cutthroat is what i want.

So really, it's probably best now to just carry on with no changes at all for 2009, and hopefully end of 2009 season, everyone just agrees to let me make the system overhaul.

All the changes wont please everyone, but longevity-wise, it'll make the comp better. It's a dynasty comp, so people will be able to adapt their rosters season by season or even just one season. That's the whole point to dynasty....it allows evolution and revolution if the owners are legit in it for the long haul. If youre all gonna be here in 5 years, say, then all our rosters will be completely churned over in that time anyway. It's not like changing something mid-season. Which i agree is a bad thing.

I think people are making a bigger deal of it than it is. If someone has killer QBs and RBs right now, a cutthroat scoring change doesnt make his players worse. They're still better than other QBs and RBs under the same cutthroat scoring. All it means is that a team's whole roster has more equal value, so people cant rely on QBs only, or RBs only, but will need to acquire good players at every position.

 

[dspeed]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

i am an engineering student at university.... and i dont get what you keep going on about gg!!!

HAHA, burn!

 

[dspeed]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

All the changes wont please everyone, but longevity-wise, it'll make the comp better. It's a dynasty comp, so people will be able to adapt their rosters season by season or even just one season. That's the whole point to dynasty....it allows evolution and revolution if the owners are legit in it for the long haul. If youre all gonna be here in 5 years, say, then all our rosters will be completely churned over in that time anyway. It's not like changing something mid-season. Which i agree is a bad thing.

Any such changes would again require a vote though, i realise you are frustrated but decisions as fundamental to the comp as this require a league decision, not a LM decision, credit to you that you have accepted that this offseason and i thank you for that, but it has to be the same in the future as well

 

[Mordikai]

Re: Alpha Dynasty - DISCUSSION - Part 3

I understand what dspeed is saying about one big group of changes has less likelihood etc. But the comp needs it, and if unlimited LBs came in alone people will dig their heels in.

Just look at it realistically. LBs score the most. People will roster 8 or more of them. Ok, fast forward to 2010. GG says, ok everyone, NOW i want to bring in cutthroat IDP scoring (ie, LB scoring is reduced and DL/DB increased), AND making DB/DL unlimited as well.

People are going to say...."no way, i just cut 5 DEs that i really like, and 3 DBs too. now i have 8 LBs that are all made worthless because you want to reduce their scoring. I just drafted 3 young LBs. I couldve drafted all these other great young DEs and DBs instead. Sorry, but i refuse to change now. Just leave it as is, the comps fine, blah blah blah.

Example....right now, forget the whole IDP/LB thing for a minute. I would like to make all the OPs equal scoring as well. Like cutthroat. But people are against it. Some really aggressively against it with the same comment...."no, i drafted all these QBs on that scoring basis, now youre just trying to ruin my roster, if id known thered be scoring changes id have drafted a RB or WR instead of a QB, etc".

If youre not seeing many embracing a change to the OP scoring, to create more balance and interest there, the same thing is only going to happen with LBs as well IF that is brought in by itself without the other IDP precautionary measures.

Only have to look at what Dspeed said the other page....hey gg i need to know asap, is it unlimited LBs or not, because if it is, then i wont cut all these LBs and will look to draft this and that LB as well. So if in 2010 i do try to change the LB scoring and increase DB/DL, youre just going to get people digging their heels saying "no".

Id rather we just do one big drastic system overhaul, that everyone can FORWARDLY prepare for.....like this offseason was supposed to be about. Before the 34 keeper cuts, me bringing in the cutthroat scoring and roster changes and everyone then going over their roster in preparation for the 2009 season, knowing exactly who they want to keep/cut in preparation for 2009. Knowing it wont EVER change again.

If you change one little thing a season at a time, it's just going to keep rocking the boat year in year out.

How do we know changing one little thing will rock the boat anymore than the boat is being rocked now?

How do we know that the cutt throat scoring system is anybetter than the one we have now? has it been tested over a season? im sure it has flaws!! Nothings perfect (except for the Bitches Roster!!)