NO TROLLS EDDIE BETTS, JOSH JENKINS & the Crow's Camp. A knife, a harness and the ‘power stance’: Eddie Betts reveals ‘cult-like’ training camp

[1970crow]

The thing, I think that keeps making it worse is learning about just how many opportunities were given to the senior figureheads to stop what was happening before and during. And after how many opportunities they had to own up to their mistake and atone for the harm they had caused people within their care. That every step of the way these people decided to undermine those who spoke up, and cover up the evidence of their actions.

You can't just wave this away as "oh well, we had good intentions and it didn't work out." They knew what they were doing would not be viewed well by actual competent medical professionals, they knew that what they were doing was hurting people, they chose to do it anyway.

They're sociopaths. They blamed the players entirely for the loss and then settled on mental weakness as the reason. So any complaint about the camp was just further evidence to them and of course those players proving themselves unable to be fixed.

 

[Ricketz]

I'm not a supporter, just have it on here still.

You don't seem to stand for anything.

 

[1970crow]

The broom already went through at the end of 2019..

The only one left to get rid of from the time of the camp is Roo.

And the AFL should step in a broom him out.

how about the board members that remain. Especially the one who was involved in professional standards and integrity? How can she survive?

 

[Ricketz]

Good idea, compensation fixes everything. I've always thought to myself, why didn't anyone at the camp stand up and say enough is enough? Where's the leadership in that? All good and well to come out now and say this and that, but at the time did anyone stand up for themselves? Their mates?

Hard for me to say, I wasn't there, but whenever I have been through a s**t time, I just move on, heal, never think or mention it again.

An apology has already been given, has it not? I don't know, I'm pretty out of loop, I have no business in getting involved with it, probably shouldn't even respond or read this anymore.

Ok, a lot to break down.

Compensation isn't restoration. It isn't intended to fix anything, it is meant to compensate for things lost or taken that cannot be replaced.

People did say they had enough. Whether it was calling their young children or letting others know they were uncomfortable with it. Both during and immediately after. And then even for some time after that. I won't bother with your dumbass repeat questions on this one - you clearly haven't read a single thing to inform yourself, so I will just say you're an idiot and leave it to you to figure out why.

Where was the leadership? Good point. That's what we will find out from the board, the AFL, and SafeWork SA through the class action. Roo was missing. Pyke was missing. Gil was missing. Patrick was missing. So it was left to the contracted short term employees (most under 27 years old) to sort out - and they had no leverage to do so.

If it was so hard for you to say you wouldn't have. But you did and here we are. No, an apology doesn't cut it. There needs to be a stick applied with the compensation carrot - the AFL has shown poor judgement twice in less than a decade that has put young and developing lives at risk.

And I am not ******* around when I say that. To * with someone's childhood trauma is a recipe for disaster.

Next time, write your post in backwards. You were dead set right, you're ignorant and way off the mark. It would have been better if you hadn't commented at all.

 

[1970crow]

The camp was in Queensland - safework SA has nothing to do with it.

wrong.

 

[freddy mercury]

Ok, a lot to break down.

Compensation isn't restoration. It isn't intended to fix anything, it is meant to compensate for things lost or taken that cannot be replaced.

People did say they had enough. Whether it was calling their young children or letting others know they were uncomfortable with it. Both during and immediately after. And then even for some time after that. I won't bother with your dumbass repeat questions on this one - you clearly haven't read a single thing to inform yourself, so I will just say you're an idiot and leave it to you to figure out why.

Where was the leadership? Good point. That's what we will find out from the board, the AFL, and SafeWork SA through the class action. Roo was missing. Pyke was missing. Gil was missing. Patrick was missing. So it was left to the contracted short term employees (most under 27 years old) to sort out - and they had no leverage to do so.

If it was so hard for you to say you wouldn't have. But you did and here we are. No, an apology doesn't cut it. There needs to be a stick applied with the compensation carrot - the AFL has shown poor judgement twice in less than a decade that has put young and developing lives at risk.

And I am not ******* around when I say that. To * with someone's childhood trauma is a recipe for disaster.

Next time, write your post in backwards. You were dead set right, you're ignorant and way off the mark. It would have been better if you hadn't commented at all.

I find it difficult to understand how many people are hurt and offended so deeply by this camp when it had no impact on their own lives, it sucked, move on, why are people all getting in line to have their say and race to be the most offended and upset?

If something doesn't involve me directly, my family, have a direct impact on my life or anything that means something to me, I keep my nose out of it.

I'm staggered at how many people are genuinely hurt and upset, I admit by what I've read and heard it sounded like it sucked and I wish it didn't happen, nobody should go through that sort of s**t.

 

[freddy mercury]

You don't seem to stand for anything.

I do, believe me, I do.

 

[FRUMPY]

Amazing the club, aflpa, AFL can think this would just go away and sweep it under the rug......

But then it gets you thinking, how much other s**t have they just swept under the rug and gotten away with that would make them think they can do it and get away with it again

A few scapegoats, bullshit apologies, another themed round (maybe camp round, where we celebrate the good side of camps) and back to business as normal of pretending to care about everything

On CPH2005 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[gouki88]

Never get between a past player and another pay day.

Jesus christ

 

[freddy mercury]

How about you stfu instead? I try to feel for Crows fans who were screwed out of a side poised to content for years but backward thinking ignorant dipsh!ts like you make it hard.

You'll be fine, you won't lose a wink of sleep, in fact, this whole thing won't have any impact on your life.

I'd be more focused on watching Geelong win a flag.

 

[The Casey Cat]

You'll be fine, you won't lose a wink of sleep, in fact, this whole thing won't have any impact on your life.

I'd be more focused on watching Geelong win a flag.

If that's how you see it (or think I should) fair enough. I like to try and put myself in their position. They went from ready to win/contend for flags to a broken club. The next group after the players I feel for here are very much the supporters. They had no say in it either and saw their team immediately good from a very good one to a mess.

 

[Bjchan13]

I find it difficult to understand how many people are hurt and offended so deeply by this camp when it had no impact on their own lives, it sucked, move on, why are people all getting in line to have their say and race to be the most offended and upset?

If something doesn't involve me directly, my family, have a direct impact on my life or anything that means something to me, I keep my nose out of it.

I'm staggered at how many people are genuinely hurt and upset, I admit by what I've read and heard it sounded like it sucked and I wish it didn't happen, nobody should go through that sort of s**t.

Bizarre take Freddy. You seem confused by the whole concept of BigFooty by the sounds of it. This is a public forum and people are discussing a news story. That you have read this thread and seen it as a race to be the most offended explains your confusion. That isnt even close to whats happening.

 

[Proper Gander]

You don't seem to stand for anything.

He stands pretty firmly for not having people create threads he doesn’t like, while simultaneously reading and critiquing them.

interesting

 

[ClintEastwood]

Seems to be trolling threads making the same point. This from the Rumour Board.

He's doing the rounds of the whole site trolling. Silly little oxygen thief.

 

[Festerz]

Good idea, compensation fixes everything. I've always thought to myself, why didn't anyone at the camp stand up and say enough is enough? Where's the leadership in that? All good and well to come out now and say this and that, but at the time did anyone stand up for themselves? Their mates?

Hard for me to say, I wasn't there, but whenever I have been through a s**t time, I just move on, heal, never think or mention it again.

An apology has already been given, has it not? I don't know, I'm pretty out of loop, I have no business in getting involved with it, probably shouldn't even respond or read this anymore.

You seem oblivious to the fact that Jenkins actually did do exactly what you are suggesting.

Said the whole stuff was a cult and wanted to leave. It's reported in his statements and in Betts' book.

He said that on day 1. But was talked out of leaving by those present, which included club officials.

The Crows player welfare advisor was deliberately cut off from any involvement in the planning for the camp and what took place. There was no avenue for the players to resist or complain what their employer had demanded they participate in.

You say you are out of the loop on what happened?

Take the time to read the stuff that has been released by Jenkins and Betts. The whole exercise is a disgusting offensive clusterfeck.

 

[Wosh]

Please don’t quote and feed the trolls and nasties, just use the report button and it’s far more quick and helpful. Thanks.

 

[Noidnadroj]

I don’t mind the Crows trialling a new age mentally challenging camp on the back of a GF loss where they saw themselves as the best team so the loss must have been mental weakness.

But disgrace number 1: don’t let the doctor or welfare manager know what was happening for fear they’d put a stop to it.

Disgrace number 2: Pyke or Camporeale, as coaches in Group 1 not putting a stop to it despite it being pretty clear it was highly inappropriate.

Disgrace 3: running Betts and Jenkins out of the club for daring to stand up against what went on.

Disgrace 4: the AFL and AFLPA deciding for 4-years there was ‘nothing to see here’, despite leading journalists clearly knowing the truth, meaning they knew the truth also but decided to bury it.

Disgrace 5: Adelaide never issuing anything resembling a proper apology over a 5-year period.

The final disgrace : Ricciuto giving a limp apology and saying he hopes Eddie can move on.

If they had have investigated it properly from the start and issued heartfelt apologies for sending players on a misguided camp, the heart and soul would not have been ripped out of the joint.

 

[Richard Pryor]

Don’t know mate but it’s so wrong. Apparently they took it from Japanese Sumo culture. I think it’s at that point where some players said enough, we’re done.

I did a deep dive ages ago when this happened but the group CM is affiliated with is pretty much a full-blown homoerotic (not that there's anything wrong with that) cult in the USA linked with at least one suicide story.

I have no idea how the furore blew over after the initial reports (the guy who ran the camp company is a certified absolute fruitloop whackjob as well).

 

[Richard Pryor]

Background info on camp "facilitators".

Regarding the professional credibility of the setup:
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...roup-that-ran-crows-camp-20180328-p4z6qt.html

Bond, who is still practising privately as a sports psychologist, says there is no listing of Woulfe or his right-hand man, Derek Leddie, on the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency’s register of practitioners.

“He’s not a registered psychologist and he certainly doesn't have an endorsement,” Bond said.

On the website www.thesoulspace.com.au, Woulfe’s "qualifications and training" reads:

"Amon is trained in a range of coaching, assessment and training approaches, including Vertical Mindset Assessment and Coaching, Power Stage Assessment and Coaching, and more. He integrates these coaching approaches with extensive experience in the leadership field, and through a long-time involvement with the national masculinity and men’s work community."

But Bond said: “I’ve got no idea what any of that is any I’ve been in the game for over 40 years now.”

Regarding co-founder Amon Woulfe's credibility:
#76 - Amon Woulfe - Out Of Your Mind - The Chief Life

Amon comes from a diverse background, being born into a hippie community, living in over 60 dwellings including tents, caravans, housing and more. From a $130 Million start up to following his creative routes in music to now diving deep into mindset, Amon has battled adversity and become a true warrior from working through it.

Amon talks about being a warrior both physically and emotionally. He explains how we bring this to fruition through our 4 brains. Your head, heart, gut and testicles or ovaries, along with how you build the ability to up and down regulate those brains.

Amon explains the 5 main brainwaves and their functions.

Delta – Recovery

Theta – Creativity/Intuition (subconscious mind)

Alpha – Calm/Single focus/Athlete Zone (zone of peak focus)

Beta – Short term cognition/Simple processing/Fight or flight/Stress state

Gamma – Flow state

Relevant video from Woulfe's youtube channel:


Regarding co-founder Derek Leddie's psychology credentials (or lack thereof):
Speakers | Australian HR Institute

Derek Leddie is the former founder of multi-million market research group The Leading Edge. Derek brings a strong record of success from leading, high-performance and results driven businesses.

Derek built The Leading Edge from the ground up. He created and led a high performance senior team that delivered 15 years of 20 per cent plus growth. The business had a turnover of $36 million and a profit of $6.5 million before he sold the business in 2008. Derek spent the following five years utilising his extensive market research skills to study, analyse and practice non-conventional philosophies on driving mind performance and to explore the world of neuroscience.

Regarding the reputation of the 'Mankind Project' in the past (the Crows camp was titled the Mankind project, I think I did previously find articles linking Woulfe to the US Mankind Project but can't seem to find them now. His fixation on testicles fits with the Mankind Project's genital obsession, as does the accounts in below article with the Crows camp essentially being a toned down version):
Houston Press | The Leading Independent News Source in Houston, Texas

Scinto initially agreed to sign up and pay the $650 for The ManKind Project's New Warrior Training Adventure several weeks earlier after hearing about it from his Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor, Kim Sawyer. Like everyone else who attended, Scinto was not told what the weekend would specifically entail. He signed several confidentiality contracts and liability waivers and filled out a medical questionnaire, but was promised all activities were voluntary and he could leave at any time. Plus, of course, he trusted his sponsor. Sawyer, a business coach who counsels corporate clients on how to run more effective businesses, had been Scinto's sponsor for about eight months. Sawyer joined The ManKind Project more than a decade earlier and sold the idea to Scinto, telling him it would be the best thing he could do for himself.

"So many of the character defects that eat you [sic] lunch can be replaced by strengths and skills and understandings you'll discover from this training. It will be the best Return on Investment you ever got," Sawyer wrote to Scinto in an e-mail before the initiation.

As Scinto became increasingly distraught at the retreat, staff members fetched Sawyer, who later told police that Scinto was crying and explained that he had unearthed a traumatic childhood memory. Sawyer told Scinto that leaving would be difficult and that it would be best if he expressed his thoughts and worries openly with the group.
...

In a letter to the sheriff's office, he detailed some of the rituals and activities he witnessed:

• Blindfolded walking tours in the nude;

• People blowing sage smoke in his face while 50 or so naked men danced around candles;

• Men sitting naked in a circle discussing their sexual histories while passing a wooden dildo called "The utensil";

• Naked men beating cooked chickens with a hammer.

At the end of the third and final day of the retreat, the leaders and staff members herded the initiates into the main room.

"They threatened us with imprisonment," wrote Scinto. "They said that if we were married to tell the wives we loved them. They told us not to discuss any of the process that we went through. Then they let us leave."

Fifteen days later, on July 25, 2005, Scinto's father and sister found him dead, rotting in his apartment from a self-inflicted shotgun wound to the head.

...

"They don't recruit in the classic sense," says Bob. "It's more subtle. They don't push it, but they reintroduce it to you every time they talk to you and suggest that you might want to try it. Members tell you it helped them clear up things from their past and allowed them to trust other men. And that's the hook. "

After researching the program on the Internet, Bob decided it wasn't for him. But that didn't mean he was free and clear of the group.
Bob was friends with a man attending his 12-step group who he considered extremely fragile. Members of The ManKind Project began "honing in" on him, says Bob, and he warned the man not to attend, fearing he might suffer psychological damage from the stressful program. When members of The ManKind Project learned of Bob's warning, they became angry.

"They went after me in subtle ways," says Bob. "People started gossiping about me in a negative way behind my back, and it became very uncomfortable to attend my (12-step) meetings. I had to change meetings, but even that wasn't very effective because members are in all the meetings. It's scary because they know all your secrets, and physical and emotional retaliation or blackmail is possible. It's like a virus here in Houston."

On Mankind Project philosophy:
ManKind Project

Men have penises. The penis will be a part of any candid discussion about male sexuality. Men have unrealistic expectations and fears about their bodies, and especially their penises. A phallus is a metaphorical representation of that fear and insecurity. The fact that entire articles have been written about the ManKind Project with the focus on this symbol is evidence of just how frightening it is to many. The use of a wooden phallus as a ‘talking stick’ for a single process dealing directly with male sexuality on the NWTA has become sensationalized in some articles as if there is something unseemly or sexual going on, when in truth it is used simply as a metaphorical anchor for a very necessary discussion.

The phallus has also come to represent the violence and oppression that men perpetrate against women, each other, children, and against the planet. The phallus is a weapon of war where rape and torture of women and girls occurs. The phallus is a deeply violent symbol of what men in prison face at the hands of other inmates or guards. It is a symbol of immature masculinity, a man ‘using his little head’ to do his thinking. All of these aspects of the male sex organs are hidden in popular culture. The ManKind Project is committed to facing both the positive and the negative associations, and helping men to form healthy relationships to themselves and others.

The fact that this is not talked about openly is symptomatic of a deeply rigid and restrictive culture of masculinity. Men deserve a safe place to deal with this. And we provide it.

Interestingly using wayback machine you can see an interesting edit to this PR statement, the older version reads:

The fact that this is not talked about openly is symptomatic of a deeply rigid, frightened and homophobic male culture. Men deserve a safe place to deal with this. And we provide it. - Phearing the Phallus - Sexuality and Nudity on the NWTA | Welcome to the ManKind Project| Men's Personal Growth | Men's Support | Men's Community

Re; nudity the same page has a damage control PR statement:

Nudity is not required. Any man may choose not to participate in any process. If a man chooses to opt out of a process, or to participate while clothed or wearing shorts, that’s fine. The vast majority of men choose to participate. Today, there are some training centers where there is no nudity on the weekend.

By this time during the training, the participants have come to realize how safe the environment that we create is, that the men are trustworthy, and that such vulnerability will not be exploited. Most men find the experience to be liberating, and get over their initial discomfort quickly. But we know that it doesn’t fit for everybody, and that it’s a bit odd to imagine in today’s world. We are proud to offer men a chance, even for 48 hours, to break out of their shells.

Nudity is never sexual. The ManKind Project will take swift action in response to any report of sexual impropriety on our training weekends.

The older version of this page also has more direct damage control along these lines which has since been removed:

No man will ever be asked to let another man touch his genitals or to touch another man's genitals. The assertion that this ever happens is ridiculous and slanderous. This rumor was alleged in an article in 2007, which we responded to. The ManKind Project will take swift action in response to any report of sexual impropriety on our training weekends. We trust the journalistic integrity of reporters who read this story. We're confident that reporters will represent us fairly and not report false information. - Phearing the Phallus - Sexuality and Nudity on the NWTA | Welcome to the ManKind Project| Men's Personal Growth | Men's Support | Men's Community

I think if a group has a decade spanning need to deny weird naked penis focused stuff there's probably enough smoke to suggest fire.

Regarding Collective Minds professional reputation in the present:
https://wwos.nine.com.au/afl/mind-t...afl-camp/fb84f22e-95bc-40f0-ab11-f656d998b780

Australia's peak psychologist body has warned AFL clubs desperately seeking an edge over their competitors that they are putting the mental health of their players at risk if they use unqualified mind gurus.

The Australian Psychological Society (APS) issued the warning on the same day the company behind Adelaide's disastrous pre-season camp attempted damage control.

 

[Ricketz]

I find it difficult to understand how many people are hurt and offended so deeply by this camp when it had no impact on their own lives, it sucked, move on, why are people all getting in line to have their say and race to be the most offended and upset?

If something doesn't involve me directly, my family, have a direct impact on my life or anything that means something to me, I keep my nose out of it.

I'm staggered at how many people are genuinely hurt and upset, I admit by what I've read and heard it sounded like it sucked and I wish it didn't happen, nobody should go through that sort of s**t.

Honestly who the hell are you to comment on how it affected their lives? You have basically admitted you haven't bothered to inform yourself on the issue. Like a vacant air head Karen you think you have some magic insight.

That's ridiculous. You don't even have basic empathy to make a reasonable guess.

Listen, Karen, kids lost entire careers and are still coming to grips with the betrayal and failure of the people who were meant to ensure a safe working environment that would support them.

Also, Karen, your vacuous hypocrisy staggers everyone else - twice now you have said if it doesn't involve you you don't get involved. Yeh? Stfu then. All you are doing is telling us imaginary stories about how tough you might be. It's irrelevant to this topic and no one cares.

 

[Ricketz]

I thought Nick Reiwoldt in the post game spotlight last night was great. He is calling a spade a spade and his comments about the AFLPA produced an awkward silence from the rest of the panel.

It gave me the feeling they know a lot more about the strongarm tactics the executive use to keep the players association under heel.

People should be interested in that side of the equation too - how much influence has the executive had on salary negotiations and how much representation do these young kids really have.

I keep going back to the fact that most of them are just kids with mature bodies, willing to sell their spleens and put their bodies on the line for one chance at an AFL game.

The scales are tipped badly against them, and we need to do better to protect them. This Roman circus of fans baying for blood - we are all part of this failure.

 

[Ricketz]

Please don’t quote and feed the trolls and nasties, just use the report button and it’s far more quick and helpful. Thanks.

Happy to delete mine. Say the word.

I've put him on ignore.

 

[Ricketz]

Background info on camp "facilitators".

Regarding the professional credibility of the setup:
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...roup-that-ran-crows-camp-20180328-p4z6qt.html


Regarding co-founder Amon Woulfe's credibility:
#76 - Amon Woulfe - Out Of Your Mind - The Chief Life

Relevant video from Woulfe's youtube channel:


Regarding co-founder Derek Leddie's psychology credentials:
Speakers | Australian HR Institute


Regarding the reputation of the 'Mankind Project' in the past (the Crows camp was titled the Mankind project, I think I did previously find articles linking Woulfe to the US Mankind Project but can't seem to find them now. His fixation on testicles fits with the Mankind Project's genital obsession, as does the accounts in below article with the Crows camp essentially being a toned down version):
Houston Press | The Leading Independent News Source in Houston, Texas

On Mankind Project philosophy:
ManKind Project


Interestingly using wayback machine you can see an interesting edit to this PR statement, the older version reads:


Re; nudity the same page has a damage control PR statement:

The older version of this page also has more direct damage control along these lines which has since been removed:



Regarding Collective Minds professional reputation in the present:
https://wwos.nine.com.au/afl/mind-t...afl-camp/fb84f22e-95bc-40f0-ab11-f656d998b780

Good job. Disturbing stuff. There really is nowhere to hide for the club management - if they had done their due diligence, this group would never pass muster.

This smacks of the epitome of toxic masculinity.

 

[Bluelegs]

I find it difficult to understand how many people are hurt and offended so deeply by this camp when it had no impact on their own lives, it sucked, move on, why are people all getting in line to have their say and race to be the most offended and upset?

If something doesn't involve me directly, my family, have a direct impact on my life or anything that means something to me, I keep my nose out of it.

I'm staggered at how many people are genuinely hurt and upset, I admit by what I've read and heard it sounded like it sucked and I wish it didn't happen, nobody should go through that sort of s**t.

It's called empathy.

 

[freddy mercury]

It's called empathy.

Do you think if something traumatic happened in your life the players will come to your defence and feel empathetic towards you?