Mega Thread EDFL Player points debate

[Aucklander]

Shylo - reduced tally for having previously played at EDS
Veszpremi/Urquhart gain additional points for having moved clubs within the same comp
I understand the confusion re: points system but give the rules a read if you get the chance, it provides context to it all.

Cheers mate. Figured out the the last two, but was unsure on Shylo. Makes sense and is fair.

Personally, I think Pascoe Vale's problems began and ended with the reluctance to play local juniors and build them into what would now be premier standard players. Their twos side is full of blokes who should be playing Premier either now or some stage this year.

 

[puffpuffgivemo]

On the points but from a different angle - surely the move of the junior competitions from even to odd will have a profound impact on our league also and support the promotion and retention of your own talent.

The Under 19, 17, 15 etc. model will ensure we have a greater chance of keeping our kids and not losing them to the VAFA for instance or just as importantly not lose them to footy all together as does happen.

The thirds competition is also vital to ensure realistic pathways and development are in place also.

Not all kids are good enough for senior footy and the standard of reserve competition these days is very strong compared to what it was 10 years ago, the thirds provides a vehicle for the less talented or those that can't commit to training to still have a game of footy. Just as importantly it's another opportunity to continue developing your list.

 

[Localblues]

I don't think you can manipulate where juniors play their football so obviously clubs need to ensure their junior programs are strong and providing enough resources to ensure the players they have develope to their potential. Problem is some clubs just don't have the kids in their area to develope as you are eluding to now. So it's a double whammy for these clubs in that a) little talent is there in the first place and b) any top end talent recruited is never at 1 point but more likely 5 or 6. Given this IMO any returning juniors should be graded on what they have done not automatically be given 1 point. Remember these clubs will still benefit from their strong juniors as there will still plenty of players coming through with ability who stay around and remain 1 pointers. Maybe returning TAC cuppers can be be deemed 1 point . IMO a guy like Brock McLean should under no circumstances be a 1 pointer in local footy.

I respect where your coming from but I think the 1 point returning junior rule is fair as with Brock McLean, Aberfeldie played a big part in his development to becoming an afl footballer and he was loyal enough to give back & return to his junior club once his afl career ended so they should be rewarded for that with him only being 1 point IMO
P.S yes I'm aware he would be getting paid well at abers which would have contributed to his return there but there still is a level of loyalty that has to be respected from both abers to pay a returning junior very well and to him for going back to the club that helped develop him

 

[puffpuffgivemo]

I respect where your coming from but I think the 1 point returning junior rule is fair as with Brock McLean, Aberfeldie played a big part in his development to becoming an afl footballer and he was loyal enough to give back & return to his junior club once his afl career ended so they should be rewarded for that with him only being 1 point IMO
P.S yes I'm aware he would be getting paid well at abers which would have contributed to his return there but there still is a level of loyalty that has to be respected from both abers to pay a returning junior very well and to him for going back to the club that helped develop him

Well said - for those that know Brock know it was all about passion and loyalty for his club and family that made him return home after a very successful AFL career.

 

[Turbos mail]

Well said - for those that know Brock know it was all about passion and loyalty for his club and family that made him return home after a very successful AFL career.

Now your starting to sound like me. Lol. I hate to say this but I agree with you for a change, as it's great Brock returned to his junior club and he was a huge part of Abers success. Probably the most influential person down there I would say. I agree great football family tough as nails but fair. Could tell you a very funny story about Brocks uncle during a game in the old FDL. It was legendary and bought a laugh to all that were there at home of the mighty wombats.

Brock was very close to signing with Port Melb last year with a great offer plus a great job, you know where. I'm told if he agreed to play at Port it would have been the biggest deal in Ports long history, as they contacted plenty of people around the area to get involved. "They were so close".

 

[Bully Man]

I respect where your coming from but I think the 1 point returning junior rule is fair as with Brock McLean, Aberfeldie played a big part in his development to becoming an afl footballer and he was loyal enough to give back & return to his junior club once his afl career ended so they should be rewarded for that with him only being 1 point IMO
P.S yes I'm aware he would be getting paid well at abers which would have contributed to his return there but there still is a level of loyalty that has to be respected from both abers to pay a returning junior very well and to him for going back to the club that helped develop him

All good reasons and very romantic but to get what amounts to a 5 point discount , that's 10% of the overall total is way too much of a benefit IMO. No wonder they threw the kitchen sink his way to get him back. Why do you think the AFL completeley overhauled the father /son recruiting rules? Yes it's nice ex juniors are given" encouragement" to return their home clubs but maybe a 2 point reduction would be closer to the mark. I'm sure things will be tinkered with going forward .

 

[Localblues]

All good reasons and very romantic but to get what amounts to a 5 point discount , that's 10% of the overall total is way too much of a benefit IMO. No wonder they threw the kitchen sink his way to get him back. Why do you think the AFL completeley overhauled the father /son recruiting rules? Yes it's nice ex juniors are given" encouragement" to return their home clubs but maybe a 2 point reduction would be closer to the mark. I'm sure things will be tinkered with going forward .

Yeah it is a big benefit and so it should be! It's rewarding clubs who develop juniors
How many players of Brock mcleans caliber leave afl footy each year? Not many I would think so it's not like clubs are going to have access to 6 or more 1 point afl level players but if they did good luck to them
In saying all that I can understand a 2 point deduction as you mentioned would still does benefit the club albeit not as much as the current system so it wouldn't bother me to much if they did change it to that

 

[Turbos mail]

All good reasons and very romantic but to get what amounts to a 5 point discount , that's 10% of the overall total is way too much of a benefit IMO. No wonder they threw the kitchen sink his way to get him back. Why do you think the AFL completeley overhauled the father /son recruiting rules? Yes it's nice ex juniors are given" encouragement" to return their home clubs but maybe a 2 point reduction would be closer to the mark. I'm sure things will be tinkered with going forward .

I still can't see how the points system evens out competitions when everyone has the same points allocation. I agree as I see sides outside the top 3 are struggling to stay under 50 points and therefore "maybe" having to play a side that is not their best as they can't fit them all in.

Yes it's great for the clubs that have strong 16s & 18s coming through but other clubs will struggle unless they go outside club protocol and entice a under 16s coach with the promise of some $$ and he brings along 5/6 top end talent so they play 2/3 years at their new club and become 1 pointers. Is this the way we want to head down??

There are some mistakes as I can see a div1 club junior up from 18s is rated as a 6. Clearly some ratings are incorrect.

So now clubs will need to retain players for more than 2 years which means the player will hold the advantage and demand good $$ to resign. So you need to keep your list together then you can only recruit 1 or 2 players.

The top 3 will stay that way for the next 5-10 years. Unless a club challenges the AFL.

With regards to ex AFL players returning home, I agree their rating should be 50% discount I reckon. But in the case of McLean, Abers have plenty of free points so it doesn't matter in this example.

It's a biased system if everyone works to 50. Good one AFL Victoria, you have little idea on grassroots footy..

 

[Bully Man]

I still can't see how the points system evens out competitions when everyone has the same points allocation. I agree as I see sides outside the top 3 are struggling to stay under 50 points and therefore "maybe" having to play a side that is not their best as they can't fit them all in.

Yes it's great for the clubs that have strong 16s & 18s coming through but other clubs will struggle unless they go outside club protocol and entice a under 16s coach with the promise of some $$ and he brings along 5/6 top end talent so they play 2/3 years at their new club and become 1 pointers. Is this the way we want to head down??

There are some mistakes as I can see a div1 club junior up from 18s is rated as a 6. Clearly some ratings are incorrect.

So now clubs will need to retain players for more than 2 years which means the player will hold the advantage and demand good $$ to resign. So you need to keep your list together then you can only recruit 1 or 2 players.

The top 3 will stay that way for the next 5-10 years. Unless a club challenges the AFL.

With regards to ex AFL players returning home, I agree their rating should be 50% discount I reckon. But in the case of McLean, Abers have plenty of free points so it doesn't matter in this example.

It's a biased system if everyone works to 50. Good one AFL Victoria, you have little idea on grassroots footy..

Was only using McLean as a reference point . The other standout anomaly for me is relocating players from the country carry more points than they are worth . Remember all EDFL players were given a 2 point reduction to kick this off so most clubs are well within the 50 presently. Going forward with natural attrition things will tighten up for clubs and players who carry points above their ability will struggle to find their desired homes .

 

[BlueJet]

Initially people were unhappy with clubs recruiting large numbers of players/rising tpp and now there's a system in place that rewards clubs for developing their own and people still aren't happy.
The leagues and AFL Vic just can't win sometimes.

 

[Bully Man]

Initially people were unhappy with clubs recruiting large numbers of players/rising tpp and now there's a system in place that rewards clubs for developing their own and people still aren't happy.
The leagues and AFL Vic just can't win sometimes.

That's a very simplistic way of looking at it. The fundamental reasons for bringing it in are sound no doubt but IMO the specifics of some the rulings are not .

 

[BlueJet]

That's a very simplistic way of looking at it. The fundamental reasons for bringing it in are sound no doubt but IMO the specifics of some the rulings are not .

Not really, the only thing simple is expecting a statewide ruling involving a large number of clubs, leagues and people to be perfect from day one.

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[Turbos mail]

Not really, the only thing simple is expecting a statewide ruling involving a large number of clubs, leagues and people to be perfect from day one.

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Let's all remember here that EDFL premier and some other leagues are very strong and clubs are being forced to play 1 point players just to keep within the 50 points. What if the 1 point player is not in the sides best 24 players but is only getting picked on his points. This affects the club and overall standard of football.
It's not a fair playing field at this point. Just take a look at the under 18 ladder and some clubs have 2 under 18 sides. I remember the days when clubs struggled to keep 17-18 years old in footy so how do some clubs have 2 sides. I'm sure any smart person will work it out. Once again it comes down to the almighty $$ most of the time unless you can recruit a bunch of mates to play together.

What about if 4-5 Melb boys want to play GVFL for example. Now it's harder because those 4-5 players will be 50% of the points cap.
It's hard enough to coach or volunteer to help the coaching staff without now counting all these points prior to Thursday team selection.
AFL vic didnt want to come down on the bigger clubs and introduce a $$ salary cap so the points is easier to hit the middle range clubs trying their best to to put together a competitive playing list..

 

[BlueJet]

Let's all remember here that EDFL premier and some other leagues are very strong and clubs are being forced to play 1 point players just to keep within the 50 points. What if the 1 point player is not in the sides best 24 players but is only getting picked on his points. This affects the club and overall standard of football.
It's not a fair playing field at this point. Just take a look at the under 18 ladder and some clubs have 2 under 18 sides. I remember the days when clubs struggled to keep 17-18 years old in footy so how do some clubs have 2 sides. I'm sure any smart person will work it out. Once again it comes down to the almighty $$ most of the time unless you can recruit a bunch of mates to play together.

What about if 4-5 Melb boys want to play GVFL for example. Now it's harder because those 4-5 players will be 50% of the points cap.
It's hard enough to coach or volunteer to help the coaching staff without now counting all these points prior to Thursday team selection.
AFL vic didnt want to come down on the bigger clubs and introduce a $$ salary cap so the points is easier to hit the middle range clubs trying their best to to put together a competitive playing list..

Those clubs wouldnt be "forced" to play 1pt if they hadn't recruited much of their side in the last year or two.
At clubs like Abers/Gvale much of there sides are 1 point, either through playing their for years or from being homegrown.
This appears to be the way forward imo.

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[Bully Man]

Not really, the only thing simple is expecting a statewide ruling involving a large number of clubs, leagues and people to be perfect from day one.

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Not really, the only thing simple is expecting a statewide ruling involving a large number of clubs, leagues and people to be perfect from day one.

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So I'll assume you also think it isn't perfect. I agree . Never suggested this was an easy task. Where are the imperfections in you eyes?

 

[Johndoe]

The AFL still haven't got there equalisation polices down pat yet and we're having a go at AFL VIC. We're 5 weeks in! For what it's worth the talk is the salary cap will come in from next season - state wide again.

It's impossible to quantify how the points system has had an effect. Who would know which clubs didn't actively try to recruit players that were high points players and therefore did not pursue them?

Who knows what's going on at your so called "bigger" clubs in terms of junior development to ensure that these clubs have a pipeline of talented junior players coming through as 1 point players for the future.

All the desk thumping in the world isn't going to change what's in store and the quicker clubs & the people in charge embrace the system we will have the better off those clubs will be

 

[Turbos mail]

Those clubs wouldnt be "forced" to play 1pt if they hadn't recruited much of their side in the last year or two.
At clubs like Abers/Gvale much of their sides are 1 point, either through playing their for years or from being homegrown.
This appears to be the way forward imo.

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That's very true, but Abers/Gvale have also recruited heavily in the past it's just the points system wasn't in back then and now some of those players are 1 pointers. I think we all agree it's the timing of this points system induction has affected some clubs trying hard to compete with the top 3.
Example- Is EDS best side on the park above 50 points? I would think it is, and they got promoted and have been active in recruiting to be Competitive. So is this fair???

I reckon a fairer way is clubs must play say a minimum of 7 homegrowns or 1 pointers and 2 or 3 of those must be under the age of 21.
OR a player under the age of 21 (and has played min 40 games) is rated as zero points.
This will be a good way of promoting some younger players and help development of younger homegrowns.

 

[orangeroughie]

Those clubs wouldnt be "forced" to play 1pt if they hadn't recruited much of their side in the last year or two.
At clubs like Abers/Gvale much of their sides are 1 point, either through playing their for years or from being homegrown.
This appears to be the way forward imo.

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There's your answer!

For clubs with strong & established junior pathway programs, the points system allows them to further strengthen their senior list, in the immediate future, by having 'first crack' at returning VFL/AFL players - because of their 1 point allocation. This is a far too significant advantage for any club, based on a player returning to his junior club that he last played at 8-10 years prior.

The points system should not have been introduced so hastily. Clubs should have had a two to three year 'warning' period to build and/or retain their list. This would gives clubs who have recently recruited a true opportunity to retain their 'recruits' and build from within, albeit a small window to do just that.

A club like Airport West, clearly doing it tough on and off the field over the last 18 months, will endure even tougher times with their inability to recruit, should they be relegated (as expected). Whereas a club like Greenvale could have a goldmine of players returning from a higher level, all available at 1 point! How does this even up the competition?

How do you expect promoted clubs to be able to build a competitive list once they make it to Premier Division or Division One?

 

[Aucklander]

Think this needs its own thread.

 

[footyman]

What about if 4-5 Melb boys want to play GVFL for example. Now it's harder because those 4-5 players will be 50% of the points cap.

For every loser, there is a winner.

I bet some clubs who have developed their own junior talent will be thrilled that the points system makes it harder for a car load of players to all leave their club in the one season. Or that former player who retires and lands a coaching job won't be able to raid his former club of 6-8 players.

Will also create an even spread of ex-VFL and ex-AFL talent filtering back to local clubs, the days of one club securing 3 or 4 blokes straight off AFL lists in a season are gone. Might make it easier for every club to get their 'share' of higher end talent.

 

[BlueJet]

There's your answer!

For clubs with strong & established junior pathway programs, the points system allows them to further strengthen their senior list, in the immediate future, by having 'first crack' at returning VFL/AFL players - because of their 1 point allocation. This is a far too significant advantage for any club, based on a player returning to his junior club that he last played at 8-10 years prior.

The points system should not have been introduced so hastily. Clubs should have had a two to three year 'warning' period to build and/or retain their list. This would gives clubs who have recently recruited a true opportunity to retain their 'recruits' and build from within, albeit a small window to do just that.

A club like Airport West, clearly doing it tough on and off the field over the last 18 months, will endure even tougher times with their inability to recruit, should they be relegated (as expected). Whereas a club like Greenvale could have a goldmine of players returning from a higher level, all available at 1 point! How does this even up the competition?

How do you expect promoted clubs to be able to build a competitive list once they make it to Premier Division or Division One?

Improve your junior pathways and clubs will be in with a chance.
Using EDS as an example, they've been able to come back into Premier and recruit quality ex AFL/VFL types due to a decent % of their senior side being homegrown.

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[Turbos mail]

Improve your junior pathways and clubs will be in with a chance.
Using EDS as an example, they've been able to come back into Premier and recruit quality ex AFL/VFL types due to a decent % of their senior side being homegrown.

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Hey mate, they are right on the maximum and I'm guessing they have a few out so they also are finding it hard to stay under 50 points.
Is 7 points the highest allocated to any player?? I think that's a bit harsh for someone out of the AFL system for a few years now. I do agree his a gun player of the competetion but it's only his second club since he moved out of the AFL/VFL system and he did fulfill his contract obligations, so I think it's a very harsh rating which could have affected his club options. I don't think it's fair..

 

[orangeroughie]

Improve your junior pathways and clubs will be in with a chance.
Using EDS as an example, they've been able to come back into Premier and recruit quality ex AFL/VFL types due to a decent % of their senior side being homegrown.

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Understood BlueJet, I just feel that the points system will have significant ramifications in the short term, namely Airport West.

As for the salary cap... don't get me started on that!

 

[Bully Man]

Improve your junior pathways and clubs will be in with a chance.
Using EDS as an example, they've been able to come back into Premier and recruit quality ex AFL/VFL types due to a decent % of their senior side being homegrown.

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The one off 2 point reduction helped make this possible. There's no doubt Douttas have done it well . They are a historically strong club who were possibly the best and unluckiest side ever to be relegated from any league . They have rebounded brilliantly. Yes strong junior setups are important but I'm not sure clubs should live or die by their juniors. It looks like clubs will need 12- 14 1 pointers to enable enough room to recruit top e

 

[Bully Man]

The one off 2 point reduction helped make this possible. There's no doubt Douttas have done it well . They are a historically strong club who were possibly the best and unluckiest side ever to be relegated from any league . They have rebounded brilliantly. Yes strong junior setups are important but I'm not sure clubs should live or die by their juniors. It looks like clubs will need 12- 14 1 pointers to enable enough room to recruit top e

Improve your junior pathways and clubs will be in with a chance.
Using EDS as an example, they've been able to come back into Premier and recruit quality ex AFL/VFL types due to a decent % of their senior side being homegrown.

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End talent needed to be competitive. Also many junior clubs are ran as seperate entities from the seniors . Looking ahead it will be interesting to watch it all unfold.