Embarassing

[kelvin_sheedy]

Knights - he hasnt instilled much faith in many fans since day dot, hence the wolves are out earlier than otherwise.

Most fans were pretty happy after the NAB Cup and first 4 rounds apart from the Geelong massacre.

It was the first time in years where we actually applied defensive pressure, tackled our butts off and looked quick and skillful.

How things change in a month.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Thought this thread was about Stanton.

I dont think he deserves that number on his back.

1. No-one will live up to the standard James Hird set. It's foolish to even compare.
2. Stanton has been probably our best player this year.

 

[The Dustbin]

1. No-one will live up to the standard James Hird set. It's foolish to even compare.
2. Stanton has been probably our best player this year.

Your kidding aren't you. McPhee, Hille, McVeigh and Houli would all be in front of Stants.

 

[BomberAce7]

Your kidding aren't you. McPhee, Hille, McVeigh and Houli would all be in front of Stants.

Agree! Stanton please! He couldnt get a kick in a street fight.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Your kidding aren't you. McPhee, Hille, McVeigh and Houli would all be in front of Stants.

I'll accept Hille.

McPhee has been very good, but not better than Stants.
Houli has dropped off in the last few weeks.
McVeigh has been our best when he's played, but he hasn't played enough.

Stanton, Hille and McVeigh have been our three best this season so far.

 

[THOMO_31]

at least some ppl think mcphee has had a pretty good year. alot of the other ppl in here want him dropped and traded at the end of year. he is very important to our side

 

[eastaugh36]

Sad but true, Sheeds last contract extension was a mistake. Disagree on Alvey being put in with the others. Plus we have been the loser on some high draft picks.

Good some good kids now, give it 2 years

Not true at all. Answer my question. What did the Zantucks,Alveys and Murphys cost us????

 

[eastaugh36]

I stated this re Knights the day he was appointed. With his absolute horrible (for a head AFL coach appointment) record, coupled with the fact he has never coached above VFL level (not even as an assistant, absolutely remarkable) that if things didnt go well pretty much straight off the bat, the poor guy will attract more and more pressure.

Simply put, there is nothing I can hang my hat on that convinces me Knights has us on the correct path, or that he knows what he is doing. I find the blind faith in him mystifying really. I dont know why so many look to Hawthorn, as Knights' approach is more Denis Pagan than it is Clarkson. Just pie in the sky wishfull thinking IMO.

At worst, hard Harwick achieved similar, at the very least we could all sit back and say, well he went through this at Hawthorn, was an assistant taking a team from zero to almost hero blah blah. Clarkson had similar runs on the board before he took over etc.

At least something.

With Knights, we have nothing. And it is this which is the problem IMO. There seems to be 2 types of Essendon supporters, those bagging Knights and those with absolute blind faith in Knights. Knights has not done the hard yards as an assistant or coach. He has simply coached poor teams. From all reports was horrific at SANFL level, ordinary at best at VFL level and that pretty much sums him up. On-field success hardly followed him around.

IMO our club shouldnt be in this position. The selection was incorrect, it will be a fluke if it works, because there simpy wasnt enough real data to go on. Forget interviews, forget personaltiy, coaching simply requires experience more so than anything else. Experience at AFL level, Knights has none - only VFL level and below, and it was hardly inspiring.

Add to this very questionable practises such as signing Dyson to 2 years (WHY THE HECK 2? What was wrong with 1?), his abysmal effort on Anzac day etc, and the confidense in him shrinks and shrinks. Right now, we are injury struck and does make it very hard. I very much feel sorry for Knighta right now. But, as much as I wanted Sheedy gone, we would never capitulate week after week after week like this under his rule.

I would love nothing more to be proved wrong, but I am not seeing it. The blind faith is fine, we are all die hard fans after all, but surely common sense will start to filter through?

Brilliant post.

 

[Merv]

Not true at all. Answer my question. What did the Zantucks,Alveys and Murphys cost us????

Because other than Murphy we got no value from them and while you have those 3 players on your list that is 3 young players that may have developed into good players.

Even if 1 did become a reasonable player we would be in front.

 

[Shane Hird]

I stated this re Knights the day he was appointed. With his absolute horrible (for a head AFL coach appointment) record, coupled with the fact he has never coached above VFL level (not even as an assistant, absolutely remarkable) that if things didnt go well pretty much straight off the bat, the poor guy will attract more and more pressure.

Simply put, there is nothing I can hang my hat on that convinces me Knights has us on the correct path, or that he knows what he is doing. I find the blind faith in him mystifying really. I dont know why so many look to Hawthorn, as Knights' approach is more Denis Pagan than it is Clarkson. Just pie in the sky wishfull thinking IMO.

At worst, hard Harwick achieved similar, at the very least we could all sit back and say, well he went through this at Hawthorn, was an assistant taking a team from zero to almost hero blah blah. Clarkson had similar runs on the board before he took over etc.

At least something.

With Knights, we have nothing. And it is this which is the problem IMO. There seems to be 2 types of Essendon supporters, those bagging Knights and those with absolute blind faith in Knights. Knights has not done the hard yards as an assistant or coach. He has simply coached poor teams. From all reports was horrific at SANFL level, ordinary at best at VFL level and that pretty much sums him up. On-field success hardly followed him around.

IMO our club shouldnt be in this position. The selection was incorrect, it will be a fluke if it works, because there simpy wasnt enough real data to go on. Forget interviews, forget personaltiy, coaching simply requires experience more so than anything else. Experience at AFL level, Knights has none - only VFL level and below, and it was hardly inspiring.

Add to this very questionable practises such as signing Dyson to 2 years (WHY THE HECK 2? What was wrong with 1?), his abysmal effort on Anzac day etc, and the confidense in him shrinks and shrinks. Right now, we are injury struck and does make it very hard. I very much feel sorry for Knighta right now. But, as much as I wanted Sheedy gone, we would never capitulate week after week after week like this under his rule.

I would love nothing more to be proved wrong, but I am not seeing it. The blind faith is fine, we are all die hard fans after all, but surely common sense will start to filter through?

This entire post is a shambolic,rambling dribble fest of the highest order. Absolute rubbish....but its one mans opinion.

And ant,for christ sake,can you use some bloody paragraphs in your long,but interesting posts. The human eye was not ment to follow dozens of continuous sentences.

 

[The_Young_Gun]

"Regarding Smokins Post"

Its sad how people are challenging Knighta's coaching at Essendon even though its only....ummmmmm...... ROUND F'ing 8 .....

I've had my fair share of Disproving Special 'K' but there could be easy explanations for his style of coaching. Since the start of the season I have only seen Knighta coach attacking footy or mainly focusing on our Offencive roles (Mainly Midfield), but maybe he has a plan, focus Attack for the first half of the year and then move onto the defence side of footy going towards the seasons ending.

I see our seasons planning as a very unique one but one that'll work. I've never seen Knighta get angry much at our players during quarter time breaks and he probably thinks "Hey I got a plan, and I'm sticking to it."

I'm Hoping that towards the end of the season we'll have a solid team with a solid Team Plan that will show some excitement for our fans to look forward to for next year, basing that Knighta teaches our guys some form of Defence.

Of coarse this is all guess work but this is giving me some hope for our club.

And if I'm terribly wrong then I'm gonna have to do something about it...

 

[efcboy]

tend to agree that sheedy has put the club a couple of years behind in development of younger players by recruiting all those previous mentioned players etc...knights is doing it the right way focusing on youth. we will need patience.

as for yesterdays game i was criticial of monfries poor disposal but at least he had a dip getting the ball. i was more annoyed at soft players like lovett and jetta who play like girls. i'd trade those two to west coast for a high pick. i'm sick of the club drafting flashy, skillful players who don't like a contest. i'm happy they got myers last year as in his two games so far he's shown more than the likes of dyson, jetta, nash have in their time. hislop also had a dip which i was happy with. must be frustrating for the guys that actually work only to be let down by weak, uncommitted players. we cannot afford to continue with soft outside players. look at geelong - all of their midfield brigade are committed to getting a hard ball and assisting a team mate. i say be gone with lovett/jetta and bring in daniel rich who is said to be hard at the pill. for essendon' purposes i'd have rich ahead of natanui as the midfield needs to be addressed.

 

[rines]

disappointing? yes and no.. embarassing.. hardly! only the true and blindly stupid would have expected a win last weekend.

Great post ant (won't quote it for a 5th time ) but in addition:
* knights doesn't have mr J Hird who was single handedly responsible for about 4 of our 7 wins last year ( and all 3 the year before )
* maybe if instead of trying to limp into the 8 with "honourable losses" and freakish hird performances for the last two years we had gone to the bottom and rebuilt we would have a couple more stars running around
* i would prefer to lose by 10 goals but have a plan for the future and find out who "has it" and who doesn't so we can delist, trade and shape our list than to lose by 4 goals in a "tight" contest. All close losses does at this point is cover the fact our list is not good enough to challenge for the flag right now...
* Sheedy was interesting in extending his contract and creating records for the last 5 years and that is why we are stuck where we are.. he kept trying to sneak wins by playing B grade but muture bodies rather than potential A grade but weaker/ younger guys..
* if the EFC truly wants to become richmond we will rush about changing coaches and finding choas.. the hallmark of efc since the 80's has been the calm and professional manner in which we have approached our footy.

yes it is hard to face all the ppl i have been bagging for years.. yes it is hard to watch us turn the ball over repeatedly. do I yell and scream at my tv? yes (as my neighbours will attest) do I yell and scream from my membership seat? yes.. but what i will not do is live in a state of denial nor do I "blindly" follow.. with my eyes wide open I face the world and remember that my footy club is bigger than 8 weeks, bigger than one season... it will be back to the top at some point and from now until then i will just as proudly wear my jumper as i did in 2000!

 

[ant555]

Ant, I was responding to your assertion that any other coach would be in the same boat.

Dunno what you were going on about there? Clarkson? well his relative lack of experience probably was the catalyst for a lot of discontent at the time. But still, he had more on the board than Knights. Lyon? he proves my point. St. Kilda have gone backwards (it seems) under him, but his history/background is the reason he has been given so much time and still many have faith in him.

Knights - he hasnt instilled much faith in many fans since day dot, hence the wolves are out earlier than otherwise.

My argument isnt "rubbish" - you just didnt understand it. I never said Hardwick was a guarantee, or Clarkson or Jesus Christ. I actually think it is very flawed to look at the hawthorn model, because that method is pretty much a closed door already IMO.

Wasnt my point though.

How is Lyon and different to Clarkson ? Lyon was involved as a premiership assistant coach so i don't know how Lyon proves your point at all. If you have not coached at AFL level then how can you have any runs on the board at all ? You can't. It is not that i don't understand your agrument ,the argument is flawed. Because you personally don't rate (didn't rate) what Knights had done coaching wise you don't see it.You have not kept an open mind on it becasue at the first trouble spot you are puting the blame onto the coach when it should directed at recruting , our former coach and the administration for allowing the club to get itselve into this position to start with.
It is pretty simple , it doesn't matter what model is followed or created we have to rebuild . It is going to take a number of years to do it and laoding all the blame on the coach who has been here for 5 minutes shows an inability to accept that. Thats why i said any other coach would be in the same boat. You are only as good as the cattle you can put on the park. As far as coaching goes i know this first hand. The side i am involved in lost a game by 150 points when we had 7 players out injured. Two weeks later when we had 6 of the 7 back in the side we beat a previosly undefeated side by 80 points and we have won 3 in a row. Last year our results where better than they looked becasue Sheedy had acess to Lucas,Hird,McVeigh and Davey for most of the year. Knights has not.When the depth is not there you will struggle to be competative if you can't get your best 22 on the park each week. Even more so when you are trying to get players to work with something new that requires a different mind set to what they have been doing for the last 5 years.

 

[Daytripper]

Most fans were pretty happy after the NAB Cup and first 4 rounds apart from the Geelong massacre.

It was the first time in years where we actually applied defensive pressure, tackled our butts off and looked quick and skillful.

How things change in a month.

They are all the attributes Alwyn Davey brings to our club.
We have now won 2 from 15 with him out of our side.

Easily the most important player at our club. I know it sounds ridiculous but him being out is the equivalent to Judd at Carlton and Foley at Richmond. Not only that, he leads our indigenous players as well. Ryder, Lovett and Jetta have all gone off the boil since he went down and these three are vital in bringing much needed pace and skill to the side.

It is up to the other players to try and replace what he brings to our game plan.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

They are all the attributes Alwyn Davey brings to our club.
We have now won 2 from 15 with him out of our side.

Easily the most important player at our club. I know it sounds ridiculous but him being out is the equivalent to Judd at Carlton and Foley at Richmond. Not only that, he leads our indigenous players as well. Ryder, Lovett and Jetta have all gone off the boil since he went down and these three are vital in bringing much needed pace and skill to the side.

It is up to the other players to try and replace what he brings to our game plan.

Yes he is but we also saw the importance of Dempsey and Jetta.

I thought Dempsey was great the first 2 weeks prior to the hammy and Jetta's tackling and pressure was on par with Davey.

I think Dempsey's defensive abilities are underrated and it shows big time when you have Nash/Winderlich/Dyson/Houli filling in at half back.

 

[bomber c]

ant 555 in regards to the amount of money spent on the football department /recruiting....since2000 who is at fault for this...i am concerned that our club is full of yes men.....

 

[Smokin]

How is Lyon and different to Clarkson ? Lyon was involved as a premiership assistant coach so i don't know how Lyon proves your point at all. If you have not coached at AFL level then how can you have any runs on the board at all ? You can't. It is not that i don't understand your agrument ,the argument is flawed. Because you personally don't rate (didn't rate) what Knights had done coaching wise you don't see it.You have not kept an open mind on it becasue at the first trouble spot you are puting the blame onto the coach when it should directed at recruting , our former coach and the administration for allowing the club to get itselve into this position to start with.
It is pretty simple , it doesn't matter what model is followed or created we have to rebuild . It is going to take a number of years to do it and laoding all the blame on the coach who has been here for 5 minutes shows an inability to accept that. Thats why i said any other coach would be in the same boat. You are only as good as the cattle you can put on the park. As far as coaching goes i know this first hand. The side i am involved in lost a game by 150 points when we had 7 players out injured. Two weeks later when we had 6 of the 7 back in the side we beat a previosly undefeated side by 80 points and we have won 3 in a row. Last year our results where better than they looked becasue Sheedy had acess to Lucas,Hird,McVeigh and Davey for most of the year. Knights has not.When the depth is not there you will struggle to be competative if you can't get your best 22 on the park each week. Even more so when you are trying to get players to work with something new that requires a different mind set to what they have been doing for the last 5 years.

No, I am not debating our results, or on field performance (as a general rule, bar some specifics). As I said, the injury list makes it very difficult to grasp exactly where we are at.

I used Clarkson and Lyon as examples of my point. As neither had coached before, I was saying the general view that Lyon had better runs on the board as an assistant meant he (we can all agree) has taken St. Kilda backwards (thus far) but he escaped just about all critisism that Clarkson copped in spades. Although there is more to this, because Clarkson was the first to really force his club to bottom out and ship out many with some sort of value. Still, no team has really done this and won a flag, yet.

Yes, perception is reality. AFL Assistant coaching holds much more water than any other. If you wish to dismiss this, fine. Knights has none. His history at SANFL level can not be ignored. His effort with Bendigo is debateable, at best. Thats why there will be more sceptisism with him.

The rest of it I agree with, I am actually not debating that there are many problems at the club or the reason for our current predicament (which I honestly dont think is THAT bad TBO, just a horrible lack of depth in key areas which expose us terribly, a little like Carlton of the past few seasons), but the major factor the fairly quick level of discontent is due to the ordinary history that Knights has. You can dress it up and say I dont see Knights' coaching past, but any rational person can see his coaching past is probably as bad as any new appointment in recent history. Is it not?

Add to this an inexperienced coaching panel, and you cant blame the sceptics for being there.

I am not actually flat out bagging Knights either, Im sorta playing devils advocate. We will all support the club and coach 100%, but I can easily see the negative side of the coin.

 

[ant555]

No, I am not debating our results, or on field performance (as a general rule, bar some specifics). As I said, the injury list makes it very difficult to grasp exactly where we are at.

I used Clarkson and Lyon as examples of my point. As neither had coached before, I was saying the general view that Lyon had better runs on the board as an assistant meant he (we can all agree) has taken St. Kilda backwards (thus far) but he escaped just about all critisism that Clarkson copped in spades. Although there is more to this, because Clarkson was the first to really force his club to bottom out and ship out many with some sort of value. Still, no team has really done this and won a flag, yet.

Yes, perception is reality. AFL Assistant coaching holds much more water than any other. If you wish to dismiss this, fine. Knights has none. His history at SANFL level can not be ignored. His effort with Bendigo is debateable, at best. Thats why there will be more sceptisism with him.

The rest of it I agree with, I am actually not debating that there are many problems at the club or the reason for our current predicament (which I honestly dont think is THAT bad TBO, just a horrible lack of depth in key areas which expose us terribly, a little like Carlton of the past few seasons), but the major factor the fairly quick level of discontent is due to the ordinary history that Knights has. You can dress it up and say I dont see Knights' coaching past, but any rational person can see his coaching past is probably as bad as any new appointment in recent history. Is it not?

Add to this an inexperienced coaching panel, and you cant blame the sceptics for being there.

I am not actually flat out bagging Knights either, Im sorta playing devils advocate. We will all support the club and coach 100%, but I can easily see the negative side of the coin.

I think that people undersell Knights efforts with Bendigo. They have never had a list that is competative with the rest of the VFL and rely way too much on the Essendon listed players. They have never spent the full amount available to them via the salary cap. Im not sure what more people expected him to do. He won more games in his his three years than anyone else could muster there.
Seriously a good comparison of what the coach's are up against with Bendigo is being the coach of a really good division three club trying to take on division one sides in suburban footy. Things go ok when you have the full list of Essendon players and there is some experience amongst them but take a few numbers out of the side and things start to get really bad very quickly.
There are players getting senior games for Bendigo that would struggle to get a regular game in the seconds of the stronger VFL sides like Sandy and Williamstown.
There are still major problems with Bendigo and the VFL listed players. Anyone getting them into the finals is doing a good job because there are blokes on the list who are simply not up to VFL standard but that is a story for another discusion.

As far as Port goes Knights admits he learnt a few things from the experince and he did a few things wrong but dont get sucked into all the bluff that Port supporters would have you belive. Port where not travelling that well before Knights arrived and they have hardly set the world on fire since he left either. Knights went in and tried to do things his way at a club that has a history of not being all that welcoming to outsiders who don't wan't to do things the Port way.
It is fair to say that Knights did stuff up his chance at Port but some of those around the club there need to carry some of the blame. It was not solely becasue Knights was a dud coach.Their recent results are an indicator that all was not well at Port Adelaide and maybe they needed to have a look at themselves.

 

[ant555]

ant 555 in regards to the amount of money spent on the football department /recruiting....since2000 who is at fault for this...i am concerned that our club is full of yes men.....

Well obviously those board members and Peter Jackson are responsible. You can't knock the strong off field position they have put the club in but one has to question why we are not leading the way in regards to recruiting set up and general football department spending given the strong position the club is in.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Not true at all. Answer my question. What did the Zantucks,Alveys and Murphys cost us????

Games which could have been played by Nash, Longan etc.

 

[eastaugh36]

Because other than Murphy we got no value from them and while you have those 3 players on your list that is 3 young players that may have developed into good players.

Even if 1 did become a reasonable player we would be in front.

I understand that but if you don't have a go with recycled players then you don't have a chance of getting a John Barnes or Paul Barnard. We probably did go for one too many in the one period but I can see where Sheeds was coming from. The club had just finished around 5th or 6th a couple of seasons in a row and he took some risks in the hope of it lifting us higher given Hird was coming to the end and Lloyd,Lucas and co were in their prime footballing years.

 

[bomber c]

we have been using the huddle at our kick ins .
again i saw it against the swans ,sydney players just guarded space to easily beat this outdated tactic...
anyone got any suggestions on tactics to bring the ball back into play....
against power we were playing russian roulette to clear the ball from our back 50....
maybe a fletch longbomb ,we need movement to create a target for the designated kicker...

 

[Schopp]

ant 555 in regards to the amount of money spent on the football department /recruiting....since2000 who is at fault for this...i am concerned that our club is full of yes men.....

good point Bomber C this is what most of us are concerned with - you could say that 99-2004 are our failed years with only Stanton and Hill being decent consistent (let alone star) players drafted in that time, so drafting and player development are areas were we must begin to lead the way rather than following others.

For example Collingwood looked very ordinary got Derek Hine and revamped their footy department and have Alan Richardson as a player development person, scouts in Ireland etc. They turned around pretty quick with Thomas, Pendelbury (admittedly top picks) but also guys like Marty Clarke, Harry O'Brien, and Goldsack and the accelerated development of the Shaws, Medhurst etc. They paid for a charter flight after that final in Subi to fly at low altitude, they are doing all they can in a very very tough competition and are thinking outside the square. To me it is like we have been content with our 4 flags and work with indigenous players over the past 25 yrs and went into auto pilot, we aren't innovative like we use to be. It sounds as though Jackson is tight fisted, but you need to spend money to make money as well. If we are winning we are getting more money from sponsors, fans, etc.

The recruitment of Williams and Hooker and the comments Dodoro and co made about them afterwards, seems like they were a bit of a lucky dip to me. It is time for us to do what Adelaide does, get guys who are good at most things but not seek the extraordinary all the time - guys who can read the play, who are hard it, decent pace, and have decent decision making and become a well drilled unit.

Like anything there is good and bad in a lot of things and I was happy with Knights' appointment and have appreciated the comments about his punctuality at training, organisation and honesty. The most concerning thing for me was seeing Johns on Pendelbury that is more crazier than Joel Reynolds on Fevola hopefully it was to see where Johns was at in terms of agility or something but even doing a test like that on such a big stage I am not sure about.

With knowledge coming to light that 2002-2004 are now being considered failed drafts for us along with 99-01 and given the decline of our few superstars we must have a lot of patience. There are 16 soon to become 18 teams in the comp and they are all trying hard as us, on average if you are lucky you will see your team win a flag once in 15 yrs that is the statistics of things. So agree with other posters who mentioned we are very lucky with the experience we have had in the past 20 odd yrs.

 

[Smokin]

I think that people undersell Knights efforts with Bendigo. They have never had a list that is competative with the rest of the VFL and rely way too much on the Essendon listed players. They have never spent the full amount available to them via the salary cap. Im not sure what more people expected him to do. He won more games in his his three years than anyone else could muster there.
Seriously a good comparison of what the coach's are up against with Bendigo is being the coach of a really good division three club trying to take on division one sides in suburban footy. Things go ok when you have the full list of Essendon players and there is some experience amongst them but take a few numbers out of the side and things start to get really bad very quickly.
There are players getting senior games for Bendigo that would struggle to get a regular game in the seconds of the stronger VFL sides like Sandy and Williamstown.
There are still major problems with Bendigo and the VFL listed players. Anyone getting them into the finals is doing a good job because there are blokes on the list who are simply not up to VFL standard but that is a story for another discusion.

As far as Port goes Knights admits he learnt a few things from the experince and he did a few things wrong but dont get sucked into all the bluff that Port supporters would have you belive. Port where not travelling that well before Knights arrived and they have hardly set the world on fire since he left either. Knights went in and tried to do things his way at a club that has a history of not being all that welcoming to outsiders who don't wan't to do things the Port way.
It is fair to say that Knights did stuff up his chance at Port but some of those around the club there need to carry some of the blame. It was not solely becasue Knights was a dud coach.Their recent results are an indicator that all was not well at Port Adelaide and maybe they needed to have a look at themselves.

fair enough thats your take. I look at it that you need to do some arguing to rate his history, but we can sorta agree to disagree.

Now on Bendigo, over the past couple seasons you have probably seen more Bendigo than most, what is your take on that relationship going forward.

I know we are contracted for this season (and next?) but what about beyond that. My gut feel is to go it alone.