Toast English Class is in. Welcome to the Dogs Tim English Pick 19

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threenewpadlocks

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English like Grundy slipped because clubs don't want to be the club that an early draft pick into a ruck, uses a list spot and resources to develop them only to have them walk out on the club for more opportunity for them to be a first ruck, because by definition there can only be one first ruck at a club. Witts is one example but Toby Nankervis is probably the best.

Nankervis was the All-Australian junior ruck and won the Hunter Harrison medal as the division two U/18 championships MVP, but slipped to pick 35 for those very reasons. At Sydney, he was stuck behind Sinclair, Tippett, Naismith, even Tom Derickx got a handful of games when Nankervis was on the list.

What happens? Nankervis requests a trade as soon as he comes out of contract and for that reason, and with the market for first rucks from other clubs small (ie there's not 17 clubs bidding for his service), they're forced to accept pick 46 from Richmond for him, despite the fact he's clearly worth more than pick 46. That pick 46 is worse than the pick they used to invest in him, let alone the three years of development and list space that Nankervis used up at Sydney that Richmond didn't have to "pay for" (ie get a ready made player), and even though Sydney kind of did the right thing by biting the bullet on the All-Australian junior ruck that slipped all the way to pick 35, at the end of the economic value they lost through the investment in Nankervis taking up a list spot and the 11 pick downgrade means they lose out more than the value they gained from the 12 games he played as a Swan, even if they were justified in using pick 35 from him as his career will clearly be better than your average pick 35.

Grundy basically got picked by the club that had an opening for first ruck, with other clubs not wanting to draft him and see him leave if he was stuck behind another first ruck (basically what's happened to the Pies and Witts ironically). Was it "wrong" for North to pass over Grundy with pick 15, for example, only for him to be stuck behind Goldstein and requesting a trade at the end of three or four years at the end of 2015 or 2016 for if he came out of contract, and then being only able to get a pick in the 20's in return after investing pick 15 and development/list spot? Same principle with all the other clubs.

And the other way that it works is that if you're stuck without a good first ruck for a year or two, there's plenty floating around in the market - no need to draft a Grundy or English when you can go out and pay a pick 46 for a Nankervis or Witts.

That's why the Grundy or English types are considered top 10, or top 5 players in their draft class on pure talent alone, but then slip - it's more than just drafting talent, it's strategic list management drafting understanding the investment on the list, and likelihood that you'll have net positive value out of the pick when you draft them.

Which is why re-signing English to 2020 was huge. Even if English is looking good as our first ruck now, given his age, there's still the very good chance that any one of Boyd, Roughead, Campbell or even Trengove or Schache come in and take his place in the team leaving English back in the reserves. But then we don't want him requesting a trade at the end of this year or next year - he'll probably cement himself as first ruck by 2020 and we can extend his contract then.
 

Mofra

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That's why the Grundy or English types are considered top 10, or top 5 players in their draft class on pure talent alone, but then slip - it's more than just drafting talent, it's strategic list management drafting understanding the investment on the list, and likelihood that you'll have net positive value out of the pick when you draft them.

Which is why re-signing English to 2020 was huge. Even if English is looking good as our first ruck now, given his age, there's still the very good chance that any one of Boyd, Roughead, Campbell or even Trengove or Schache come in and take his place in the team leaving English back in the reserves. But then we don't want him requesting a trade at the end of this year or next year - he'll probably cement himself as first ruck by 2020 and we can extend his contract then.
All true, however with the banning of the third man up rule and cap on interchange rotations having a better than good no 1 ruck is absolutely vital now.
I'd expect the market to change a little from a few years ago when we only had 1-2 ruckmen drafted in the whole draft to 2-3 per year. Teams can get away with a pinch-hitter as a back up (i.e. Shaun Grigg) only if your no 1 ruck is dominant and take the bulk of the work.
 

True Dog

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English like Grundy slipped because clubs don't want to be the club that an early draft pick into a ruck, uses a list spot and resources to develop them only to have them walk out on the club for more opportunity for them to be a first ruck, because by definition there can only be one first ruck at a club. Witts is one example but Toby Nankervis is probably the best.

Nankervis was the All-Australian junior ruck and won the Hunter Harrison medal as the division two U/18 championships MVP, but slipped to pick 35 for those very reasons. At Sydney, he was stuck behind Sinclair, Tippett, Naismith, even Tom Derickx got a handful of games when Nankervis was on the list.

What happens? Nankervis requests a trade as soon as he comes out of contract and for that reason, and with the market for first rucks from other clubs small (ie there's not 17 clubs bidding for his service), they're forced to accept pick 46 from Richmond for him, despite the fact he's clearly worth more than pick 46. That pick 46 is worse than the pick they used to invest in him, let alone the three years of development and list space that Nankervis used up at Sydney that Richmond didn't have to "pay for" (ie get a ready made player), and even though Sydney kind of did the right thing by biting the bullet on the All-Australian junior ruck that slipped all the way to pick 35, at the end of the economic value they lost through the investment in Nankervis taking up a list spot and the 11 pick downgrade means they lose out more than the value they gained from the 12 games he played as a Swan, even if they were justified in using pick 35 from him as his career will clearly be better than your average pick 35.

Grundy basically got picked by the club that had an opening for first ruck, with other clubs not wanting to draft him and see him leave if he was stuck behind another first ruck (basically what's happened to the Pies and Witts ironically). Was it "wrong" for North to pass over Grundy with pick 15, for example, only for him to be stuck behind Goldstein and requesting a trade at the end of three or four years at the end of 2015 or 2016 for if he came out of contract, and then being only able to get a pick in the 20's in return after investing pick 15 and development/list spot? Same principle with all the other clubs.

And the other way that it works is that if you're stuck without a good first ruck for a year or two, there's plenty floating around in the market - no need to draft a Grundy or English when you can go out and pay a pick 46 for a Nankervis or Witts.

That's why the Grundy or English types are considered top 10, or top 5 players in their draft class on pure talent alone, but then slip - it's more than just drafting talent, it's strategic list management drafting understanding the investment on the list, and likelihood that you'll have net positive value out of the pick when you draft them.

Which is why re-signing English to 2020 was huge. Even if English is looking good as our first ruck now, given his age, there's still the very good chance that any one of Boyd, Roughead, Campbell or even Trengove or Schache come in and take his place in the team leaving English back in the reserves. But then we don't want him requesting a trade at the end of this year or next year - he'll probably cement himself as first ruck by 2020 and we can extend his contract then.
Brilliant insight, thanks for that. I suppose the other thing to factor in is the go home factor. I’m certain both WA clubs will come calling in a big way when the time is right.
 

threenewpadlocks

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Brilliant insight, thanks for that. I suppose the other thing to factor in is the go home factor. I’m certain both WA clubs will come calling in a big way when the time is right.
I wonder if we were the club willing to bite the bullet on English because we had just won a flag. Easier to take a risk when you're not scared that a mistake will cost you a flag, because you've just won one.
 

Golden_6

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Brilliant insight, thanks for that. I suppose the other thing to factor in is the go home factor. I’m certain both WA clubs will come calling in a big way when the time is right.
I think I read somewhere that English was living away from home before he got drafted? I think his girlfriend may also be from Sydney, so the WA/Perth factor might not be as strong.
 

True Dog

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I wonder if we were the club willing to bite the bullet on English because we had just won a flag. Easier to take a risk when you're not scared that a mistake will cost you a flag, because you've just won one.
I recall Dalrymple saying when he realised the possibility of English falling to us he paid the family a visit and was greeted by Tim’s old man who was a huge hulk of a man and he knew right then what Tim would develop into. Given his recent mantra of picking best available with early picks it was a no brainer. Winning the flag also helped haha....
 
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Next Waiting

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Is a beautiful kick. Accuracy is very good but it's the weighting of his field kicks in general play that really stands out. Quite extraordinary touch for someone of his size. He'd have to be knocking on the door when considering the top 5 kicks we have at the club.
 

Hoges64

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Is a beautiful kick. Accuracy is very good but it's the weighting of his field kicks in general play that really stands out. Quite extraordinary touch for someone of his size. He'd have to be knocking on the door when considering the top 5 kicks we have at the club.
And that's a very MASSIVE indictment of 38 other blokes on our list.
 

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Dogs_R_Us

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Steven King - Backline
Steven King was appointed as an assistant coach at the Western Bulldogs in October 2011.

King arrived at the Whitten Oval from the St Kilda Football Club where he was the ruck/midfield coach in 2011.

After overseeing the midfield unit at the Bulldogs in the ensuing years up to and including the Club's AFL Premiership success in 2016, King moved across to the backline portfolio for the 2017 season.

King played 240 senior AFL games with Geelong and St Kilda, and was a member of the Cats 2007 premiership side.

King captained the Cats between 2003 and 2006, was a dual Club best and fairest (2000,2002) and member of the AFL All Australian Team in 2000.
 

Scary_Foot_9

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Would love to see the lad rinse old top knot on Saturday night.

Test his engine out around the ground, then push forward to the square when he goes a kick behind the play.
 

Bulldog15

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Not a fan of overseas teams.....
Bookmark it. Will be better than Grundy.
Similar trajectories in fact.
If they say Grundy is like another Mid then watch out for Tim, will be a better mark and better below his knees and better footy smarts the Brodie, i know that's hard to say about Grundy right now, but when you watch Tim closely you see his trajectory.
 

_M_16_

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This weekend will be a great chance to see whether he has grown. Still expect Grundy to win the battle well. But if English avoids that one sides affair last time, then it shows he has grown and learnt. If he evens it or beats Grundy, then geez throw in the cash and years hard already.
 
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