Roast Enough is Enough

gringo2011

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I'm not advocating to sack everyone, not even advocating to sack Finnis as I think he's done very well outside of the Footy Ops, but if you fail to cover or get adequate help in the areas you are weakest in, then it brings down the show. I even advocated keeping Richo once all those other changes were made last year, but here we are after making no changes for so long that's going to set us back 1 or 2 years regardless.

That's why I want a guy like Neale Balme, he has his hands over the footy department and makes all the parts work together. He's exactly what we need.
 

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StCicatriz

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I'd say the opposite, if you try to run the club using only people from "footyland " you'll come unstuck. Its a matter of balance.

Contracts management is fine for list management as long as the talent scouts are good.
Commercial background for a GM is fine.

Footy players come out of School, try to win games for a decade , then get thrust into what is essentially a business, where the product is a team.

Its a pity Brendon Bolton was a failure, because it propagates the myth that you need to be a top AFL player to be a good coach.
Similarly its a pity Searl was relegated to the AFLW , out of the way of the mates club that is the AFL.
Its the whole "mates club" thing that makes the AFL amateur hour.
problem is list management is more than just contracts management. someone on the main board raised an interesting point. he said the contracts side should be a function of list management, not all of it, essentially you could engage a resource to do it for you. similar to what ameet was doing when COO.

the role is bigger than that.

i disagree on the footy gm/commercial background. there needs to be focus on driving a high performance standard within football, which is very specific to the AFL industry. they're two different things. yes there's a re-usable skill set, but i think the idea you could take ya local GM working in the commercial side of mining and make him a footy boss wouldn't work. where lethers has a leg up, i suspect, is due to his involvement in AFLHQ and his experience working with clubs and AFLHQ.

hence why i think he came in and went WTF are they doing and started to churn. DOS is a good example of that i reckon. Trout probs gets the ass because of that too. bringing in Gubby would help with trying to drag everything up to speed again. sounds like it was pretty far behind and probably the reason they were willing to give Richo more time, because the system around him was so far behind.

whether or not he will be good in the role we will have to see.

there's a reason people get relegated. i found it strange we took a part time VFL line coach and made them an AFL development coach. that's a massive leap!
 

plugger66

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The sacking culture has never worked at the Saints. Not much has worked but maybe lets try something different and keep the people we have in administration now. Even sacking the assistants last year hasn't ended up having a huge effect. Everyone thinks there is better out there. Well sometimes a club like us cant get better out there and we may have the best we can get. I used to think being in debt didn't matter as the AFL will bail us out. That part is thrue but it does matter. We are playing in China because it does matter. We most likely kept Richo this year because it does matter. We have staff sent to us by the AFL because it does matter. People assume we can just sack staff and coaches. Well maybe we cant. Maybe we have to wait until contracts end because the AFL say no more stupid debt. And fair enough.

What I will say is from what I Have been told we have the best staff as a group for a long time. Certainly since we have huge debt. We should stick with them because there maybe nothing better out there and they seem to be doing a great job. Errors yes but I think if there was similar thread on most footy sides board they would complaining of the same things some on here are. If you want the perfect club then find another sport. Doubt there is any in any sport to be honest.
 

plugger66

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problem is list management is more than just contracts management. someone on the main board raised an interesting point. he said the contracts side should be a function of list management, not all of it, essentially you could engage a resource to do it for you. similar to what ameet was doing when COO.

the role is bigger than that.

i disagree on the footy gm/commercial background. there needs to be focus on driving a high performance standard within football, which is very specific to the AFL industry. they're two different things. yes there's a re-usable skill set, but i think the idea you could take ya local GM working in the commercial side of mining and make him a footy boss wouldn't work. where lethers has a leg up, i suspect, is due to his involvement in AFLHQ and his experience working with clubs and AFLHQ.

hence why i think he came in and went WTF are they doing and started to churn. DOS is a good example of that i reckon. Trout probs gets the ass because of that too. bringing in Gubby would help with trying to drag everything up to speed again. sounds like it was pretty far behind and probably the reason they were willing to give Richo more time, because the system around him was so far behind.

whether or not he will be good in the role we will have to see.

there's a reason people get relegated. i found it strange we took a part time VFL line coach and made them an AFL development coach. that's a massive leap!

Maybe they saw what we don't see. Lethers has a footy background and commercial back ground. Maybe not AFL but unbelievably successful VAFA footy back ground. Unless you are looking for fault and even then I cant find any I don't see one mistake he has made.
 

gringo2011

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And I want Clarko. Give us a realistic name Gringo or do we all get to handpick the best and then complain we don't have any of them.

Richmond only got him because the challenger board that was set up by that freak that looked like a Star Trek extra wanted to roll the sitting board and their big ticket item was Balme. The club ran off and got him and they win a premiership. We need to chase the best form other cubs, it doesn't have to be Balme, just a top operator. We do everything like we are still a VFL club.
 

plugger66

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Richmond only got him because the challenger board that was set up by that freak that looked like a Star Trek extra wanted to roll the sitting board and their big ticket item was Balme. The club ran off and got him and they win a premiership. We need to chase the best form other cubs, it doesn't have to be Balme, just a top operator. We do everything like we are still a VFL club.

Im unsure if you know our debt. Can you name all the other top operators in that sort of position? If you look for fault as you starting point you will find it with every club. I still have no idea what Lethers has done wrong. Seems very strong. Balme did come into a club with 4 champions in the side. We have exactly zero. Not even sure we have really any A graders. Maybe Marshall because he would be close to top 3 in his position. Not one other player would be top 10 in their position. Not one mid would be top 40.
 

StCicatriz

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Maybe they saw what we don't see. Lethers has a footy background and commercial back ground. Maybe not AFL but unbelievably successful VAFA footy back ground. Unless you are looking for fault and even then I cant find any I don't see one mistake he has made.
it's handy but it's also a long way back from AFL level. it'd be interesting to see if any other footy GM's have a similar background. most seem to work up through coaching or list management.
 

StCicatriz

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The sacking culture has never worked at the Saints. Not much has worked but maybe lets try something different and keep the people we have in administration now. Even sacking the assistants last year hasn't ended up having a huge effect. Everyone thinks there is better out there. Well sometimes a club like us cant get better out there and we may have the best we can get. I used to think being in debt didn't matter as the AFL will bail us out. That part is thrue but it does matter. We are playing in China because it does matter. We most likely kept Richo this year because it does matter. We have staff sent to us by the AFL because it does matter. People assume we can just sack staff and coaches. Well maybe we cant. Maybe we have to wait until contracts end because the AFL say no more stupid debt. And fair enough.

What I will say is from what I Have been told we have the best staff as a group for a long time. Certainly since we have huge debt. We should stick with them because there maybe nothing better out there and they seem to be doing a great job. Errors yes but I think if there was similar thread on most footy sides board they would complaining of the same things some on here are. If you want the perfect club then find another sport. Doubt there is any in any sport to be honest.
i used to think $$$ was everything. until i started reading annual reports on how much each club spends on the footy dept. there was only a tick over 1 million between us and WCE last year.
 

plugger66

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it's handy but it's also a long way back from AFL level. it'd be interesting to see if any other footy GM's have a similar background. most seem to work up through coaching or list management.

I thought you may know seen as you think our appointment doesn't make sense. I have no idea but I do trust the AFL to give us someone who they think could manage the role and more to the point seems to be doing a great job.
 

plugger66

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i used to think $$$ was everything. until i started reading annual reports on how much each club spends on the footy dept. there was only a tick over 1 million between us and WCE last year.

Yes I know that because the current administration had the balls to up the spending. Doesn't mean we can do as we please because we have to do as the AFL want. Can you see WCE having a home game in China?
 

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StCicatriz

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I thought you may know seen as you think our appointment doesn't make sense. I have no idea but I do trust the AFL to give us someone who they think could manage the role and more to the point seems to be doing a great job.
i think it's in the AFL's interest for us to do well to repay their debt and also not be as reliant on them

having said that the AFL don't get everything right. their appointments to the footy GM role which lethers was on until he was let go, have been pretty poor since old mate left for gold coast.
 

gringo2011

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I thought you may know seen as you think our appointment doesn't make sense. I have no idea but I do trust the AFL to give us someone who they think could manage the role and more to the point seems to be doing a great job.

There was an element of needing to hide their embarrassing little problem somewhere inside footy where he could still draw a wage though. David Noble was who they sent to Brisbane when they couldn't self manage and he's had years of real club experience.
 

plugger66

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i think it's in the AFL's interest for us to do well to repay their debt and also not be as reliant on them

having said that the AFL don't get everything right. their appointments to the footy GM role which lethers was on until he was let go, have been pretty poor since old mate left for gold coast.

Exactly no organisation gets everything right.
 

plugger66

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There was an element of needing to hide their embarrassing little problem somewhere inside footy where he could still draw a wage though. David Noble was who they sent to Brisbane when they couldn't self manage and he's had years of real club experience.
And why exactly were they forced to find him a job. Was he suing for wrongful dismissal? By the way can you tell us about Noble. I dont know much about him. Do you have another name yet apart from the impossible Balme.
 

StCicatriz

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Yes I know that because the current administration had the balls to up the spending. Doesn't mean we can do as we please because we have to do as the AFL want. Can you see WCE having a home game in China?
do you have an example of something the AFL stopped us doing that has affected our results?
 

plugger66

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do you have an example of something the AFL stopped us doing that has affected our results?

Are you serious? How would I know what they have stopped us doing. I don't work in the club. I know what they made us do that could have effected results and that's go to China.
 

StCicatriz

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Are you serious? How would I know what they have stopped us doing. I don't work in the club. I know what they made us do that could have effected results and that's go to China.
i'm asking because your claim was WCE are able to do what they want where as we are affected by the AFL. so i'm wondering what they are?

the chinese game got us 1 million. it was one game. it only happened this year. it did not happen in the previous 5 seasons under Finnis or Richo. it also was a game we were unlikely to win IMO based on the form of the two clubs over the course of the last 6 seasons.

do you have another example?
 

plugger66

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i'm asking because your claim was WCE are able to do what they want where as we are affected by the AFL. so i'm wondering what they are?

the chinese game got us 1 million. it was one game. it only happened this year. it did not happen in the previous 5 seasons under Finnis or Richo. it also was a game we were unlikely to win IMO based on the form of the two clubs over the course of the last 6 seasons.

do you have another example?

Firstly when did i say that WCE can do what they want? I didn't. Well the Chinese game was one. No idea what that has to do with Finnis and Richo being there for 5 years before it happened. Do you honestly think we would have done it if we weren't in debt. Of course not. The AFL certainly would have suggested we play there to get the debt down And im pretty sure I gave other example in the other post. Maybe go back and read them. You confuse me. One moment you want me to tell you things that they have stopped us doing and now you want me to tell you things that are effected by the AFL. You do understand they could be completely different things. The point is if you go and read it again is the debt has a huge effect on what our club can do starting with the game in China. Probably the appointment of Lethers and Finnis. etc.
 

SaintsSeptember

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I think people are underestimating how long the talent pipeline takes.
Until last October, many of us thought that Hugh Goddard, drafted nearly 5 years ago, would be our future full back.
We thought he'd embarrass us when he played his ass off at the blues.
Now finally i think its sinking in, he was a bad pick.

So now we know our drafting in 2014 was pretty bad.
At some point we determined our talent spotting and in 2012 and 13 was abysmal.
Then we restructured that area of the club.

To me that gives some idea about how hard it is to judge staff performance in these things.
Hell the debate is still raging about Acres.
 

gringo2011

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I think people are underestimating how long the talent pipeline takes.
Until last October, many of us thought that Hugh Goddard, drafted nearly 5 years ago, would be our future full back.
We thought he'd embarrass us when he played his ass off at the blues.
Now finally i think its sinking in, he was a bad pick.

So now we know our drafting in 2014 was pretty bad.
At some point we determined our talent spotting and in 2012 and 13 was abysmal.
Then we restructured that area of the club.

To me that gives some idea about how hard it is to judge staff performance in these things.
Hell the debate is still raging about Acres.

yes and no, I was on to Trout a few years ago when there seemed to be a very short supply of elite talent popping their heads up. Other clubs with picks around ours seemed to turn their picks into guns, ours stagnated. The others seem to get mids when we needed them and I pointed that out too. Apparently a whole lot of mids are coming through free agency though and Hugh and Paddy are the bookends.
 

StCicatriz

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Firstly when did i say that WCE can do what they want? I didn't. Well the Chinese game was one. No idea what that has to do with Finnis and Richo being there for 5 years before it happened. Do you honestly think we would have done it if we weren't in debt. Of course not. The AFL certainly would have suggested we play there to get the debt down And im pretty sure I gave other example in the other post. Maybe go back and read them. You confuse me. One moment you want me to tell you things that they have stopped us doing and now you want me to tell you things that are effected by the AFL. You do understand they could be completely different things. The point is if you go and read it again is the debt has a huge effect on what our club can do starting with the game in China. Probably the appointment of Lethers and Finnis. etc.
maybe i wasn't too clear with my original statement. i was saying that I used to think money was the issue for why we are being left behind in the on field results, but after reading the annual reports there is not much difference between us and WCE when it comes to funding the football dept program. it's only a bit over a million.

your response to me was "Doesn't mean we can do as we please because we have to do as the AFL want." coupled with "Can you see WCE having a home game in China? "

hence why i asked what has the AFL stopped us doing that could be the differentiating factor between us and WCE. as i assumed your post meant the AFL had stopped us doing something we wanted to do, that has contibuted to the poor onfield results. i then highlighted that the home game in china is irrelevant to the current on field results as it only happened this year. it was also one game. it doesn't explain previous seasons.

i think debt is irrelevant here anyway, because we are already spending the money. the total outlay for WCE compared to us is roughly the same. a little over a million difference. we've had new facilities since the beginning of last season. WCE have just moved into theirs.

i don't think it's a funding issue right now.

what has debt stopped us doing?
 

plugger66

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maybe i wasn't too clear with my original statement. i was saying that I used to think money was the issue for why we are being left behind in the on field results, but after reading the annual reports there is not much difference between us and WCE when it comes to funding the football dept program. it's only a bit over a million.

your response to me was "Doesn't mean we can do as we please because we have to do as the AFL want." coupled with "Can you see WCE having a home game in China? "

hence why i asked what has the AFL stopped us doing that could be the differentiating factor between us and WCE. as i assumed your post meant the AFL had stopped us doing something we wanted to do, that has contibuted to the poor onfield results. i then highlighted that the home game in china is irrelevant to the current on field results as it only happened this year. it was also one game. it doesn't explain previous seasons.

i think debt is irrelevant here anyway, because we are already spending the money. the total outlay for WCE compared to us is roughly the same. a little over a million difference. we've had new facilities since the beginning of last season. WCE have just moved into theirs.

i don't think it's a funding issue right now.

what has debt stopped us doing?
Of course debt is relevant. China game proves it. Probably keeping richo proves it. Getting people who were connected with the afl proves it. If you are talking on field well that’s a different subject that o never brought up. You may want to because it’s another reason to say we have no excuse for not being as good as wce.

Your tangent is about finding another reason to knock the club. My original post that you responded to wasn’t even slightly talking about that. At least you don’t surprise me. I was talking debt not footy spending. You do understand they have nothing to do with each other. Debt forces us to sometimes do as the afl want. No debt like wce means they can do as they like I will keep mentioning China to prove that.

And if you want to go on about how we spend close on footy spending I gather you know the figures 5 years ago because one thing I’m pretty sure of is if you suddenly increase spending it’s not going to have immediate impact especially things like development. That’s just common sense


And again how the hell would I know what debt has stopped us doing. I never said it has stopped us doing anything in the original post. I said is may have forced us to do things we didn’t want to do. My grand daughter who isn’t even born yet know they are completely different things.
 
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