Roast Enough is Enough

[George]

i'm not giving one cent to this club until it can demonstrate it can spend it wisely.

You'll never see that because unfortunately you can't spend money you don't have.

 

[plugger66]

if you don't take it serious why bother with the attempt to insult?

just my 90% sarcasm.

 

[StCicatriz]

You'll never see that because unfortunately you can't spend money you don't have.

hahaha fair play on the sentence. i'll just have to see how they go spending other peoples money from now on!!!

i might come out of it feeling better about the whole thing, after-all it won't be my money they're spending!

 

[George]

hahaha fair play on the sentence. i'll just have to see how they go spending other peoples money from now on ;-)

It'll be a lot harder for them to spend less money on better people.

I don't want to go back and forth on it, because this club means a lot to a lot of people, and it holds a special place in my life. I will say that a true supporter of this club, that has the available finances, wouldn't withdraw financially to punish them. You (or anyone really) can say "Well a supporter should also expect more" and that's true - but I think they can be mutually exclusive. I expect more, but I know to expect more then I need to continue doing my bit (as little as it may seem in the grand scheme of things) for that change to occur.

Your talk about boycotting games and withdrawing financially isn't what supporters should be doing. Supporters support. And to criticise the club as harshly as you do makes me wonder how deep your love for the Saints really is.

It's very simple to work out that less money = worse results. It's illogical to think that less money will equal better results.

 

[JiggsteR45]

Seriously wonder about supporters. Thinking they have that much importance that they control the club. Hopefully most don’t think like you. They may say they do but they will still go especially next game. Supporters support. They can get upset but hurting the club doesn’t help anyone.

You didn’t even see the game anyway so won’t be missed.


I will be there next week supporting my club and roo.

Me too![emoji837][emoji836]️[emoji835]️

 

[StCicatriz]

It'll be a lot harder for them to spend less money on better people.

I don't want to go back and forth on it, because this club means a lot to a lot of people, and it holds a special place in my life. I will say that a true supporter of this club, that has the available finances, wouldn't withdraw financially to punish them. You (or anyone really) can say "Well a supporter should also expect more" and that's true - but I think they can be mutually exclusive. I expect more, but I know to expect more then I need to continue doing my bit (as little as it may seem in the grand scheme of things) for that change to occur.

Your talk about boycotting games and withdrawing financially isn't what supporters should be doing. Supporters support. And to criticise the club as harshly as you do makes me wonder how deep your love for the Saints really is.

It's very simple to work out that less money = worse results. It's illogical to think that less money will equal better results.

ahhh the old real/true supporter line...

i dunno about less money being counter intuitive to performance. i've seen departments take an axe to the budget due to poor results only for the department to produce better results on the reduced budget. mainly due to the deadwood being cut after the budget is wound back and getting a different direction due to senior management being held to account for what they've delivered. there are cases where the worst possible thing would have been to keep those in charge. the business would eventually go under.

budget cuts suck. not going to say it's always good. but i think hiding away from the actual reality of the situation and performance is worse. rolling along with the same old outcome. it's better to stick to the reality of it, hold the line and move it in the right direction. for all the chest beating about the much improved football department, we've seen a net ladder gain of 2 spots, with a softer draw. when it all comes out in the wash, it could remain the same. we could keep the same senior management and be in the same position in 3 years time!

that's how i view my contribution. no point giving it to something for it to be misspent or if you have no faith in the overall direction and management.

money can't be too tight at the saints if they were so quick to re-sign richo with not enough protection to remove him in 2018. we can't be too tight if we are appointing searle to a development coach position on the back of very little experience. list goes on and on. how many memberships do you need to pay richo his salary. what about searle? and so on?

plus if it was all about dollars, pies would win the flag every year or wce. dogs would never have got it done. neither sydney.

the sticky issue here is the AFL industry is the only one funded by such a strong connection to loyalty, with very little regard for performance. what other organisation can just demand money from its customers like that.

 

[plugger66]

ahhh the old real/true supporter line...

i dunno about less money being counter intuitive to performance. i've seen departments take an axe to the budget due to poor results only for the department to produce better results on the reduced budget. mainly due to the deadwood being cut after the budget is wound back and getting a different direction due to senior management being held to account for what they've delivered. there are cases where the worst possible thing would have been to keep those in charge. the business would eventually go under.

budget cuts suck. not going to say it's always good. but i think hiding away from the actual reality of the situation and performance is worse. rolling along with the same old outcome. it's better to stick to the reality of it, hold the line and move it in the right direction. for all the chest beating about the much improved football department, we've seen a net ladder gain of 2 spots, with a softer draw. when it all comes out in the wash, it could remain the same. we could keep the same senior management and be in the same position in 3 years time!

that's how i view my contribution. no point giving it to something for it to be misspent or if you have no faith in the overall direction and management.

money can't be too tight at the saints if they were so quick to re-sign richo with not enough protection to remove him in 2018. we can't be too tight if we are appointing searle to a development coach position on the back of very little experience. list goes on and on. how many memberships do you need to pay richo his salary. what about searle? and so on?

plus if it was all about dollars, pies would win the flag every year or wce. dogs would never have got it done. neither sydney.

the sticky issue here is the AFL industry is the only one funded by such a strong connection to loyalty, with very little regard for performance. what other organisation can just demand money from its customers like that.

So you say more money doesn't help. Just out of interest how does the club improve with less money. Also they dont even know the reason you are withdrawing support. Even if they do they aren't going to ring you to find out who should coach so they get your money back. Im not even sure how they get your money back. Do you have to like an appointment.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

This post just shows you bias against the club. A few defend the club. Most don't. Look at the richo thread to see that. Anyway withdrawing support wont make the club run better. It will run worse just as your plan last year to boycott a game or games wasn't going to help. Join the board to help out in WA if you want change. Quitting on the club wont bring change.

we will gladly have you on board at the Western Saints StC .. we are always looking for fresh ideas and new perspectives ...

 

[StCicatriz]

So you say more money doesn't help. Just out of interest how does the club improve with less money. Also they dont even know the reason you are withdrawing support. Even if they do they aren't going to ring you to find out who should coach so they get your money back. Im not even sure how they get your money back. Do you have to like an appointment.

try reading the post. the answer is in there if you look.

 

[plugger66]

we will gladly have you on board at the Western Saints StC .. we are always looking for fresh ideas and new perspectives ...

Just out of my zone and got to much to do at my other club. Saints days are over for me in a helping perspective.

 

[plugger66]

try reading the post. the answer is in there if you look.

Read it again. Still nothing. You haven't explained how less money helps and you haven't said how the club prove to you they aren't wasting money. We could be waiting 5 years for a start to see if the coach is a good appointment. So you are saying you may not be a member for many a year. That's up to you but don't come on he whinging pretending to be a supporter next year and coming on a saints site basically boasting you have withdrawn support is a little weird IMO.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

very fair response. especially on the growth side of things.

however how i feel about this club, which i understand is just my opinion, is that using this analogy:
"look at it like having a bloke with a broken leg and taking away his crutches so he can get back walking quicker.."

i'd tweak that and say its like "being asked for money by a bloke with a broken leg to buy crutches because he broke his leg doing something incredibly stupid at the instructions of his dickhead mates. only for the person who broke his leg to turn around and give some of that money to his dickhead mates who put him in that position to begin with."

chop and change the dickhead mates. rinse and repeat the broken brokens and the hand out for cash.

i'm not giving one cent to this club until it can demonstrate it can spend it wisely. the alan richardson contract and the subsequent jobs for mates mentality, has my money staying firmly in my pocket this time around.

i drank the cool aid last year when the club asked me to stay on board. i'm not doing it again until the mentality changes and people are held accountable. if they care so much about money then maybe there should be consequence for those who implemented alan richardsons contract that provided the club with very little protection to protect that very valuable asset that it's short of, money.

so what do you want your money spent on by the club ?
paying out Richo? cause thats pretty much certain to happen ...
take a walk around Moorabbin and see what your money is going towards... you want to talk about wasted money look no further than the 2004 period where we had members but had to borrow tackle pads from a local club for our players , when we had the facility falling down, we had a hole in the wall that exposed a steam pipe that if you got to close to burnt you... but we won games then so it didnt matter then ... if anything our club is prob the smartest its been in 140 years in how it spends its money but because we are not winning it looks like its wasted ...

 

[StCicatriz]

Read it again. Still nothing. You haven't explained how less money helps and you haven't said how the club prove to you they aren't wasting money. We could be waiting 5 years for a start to see if the coach is a good appointment. So you are saying you may not be a member for many a year. That's up to you but don't come on he whinging pretending to be a supporter next year and coming on a saints site basically boasting you have withdrawn support is a little weird IMO.

mate its literally in the 2nd paragraph!

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

hahaha fair play on the sentence. i'll just have to see how they go spending other peoples money from now on!!!

i might come out of it feeling better about the whole thing, after-all it won't be my money they're spending!

you will take this the wrong way but that is being a bandwagon supporter ... the way the club spends my membership money wont matter to you if we start winning games ... so just say what you really mean.. until we get some success you are not on board ... thats fair enough thats your choice , its not a choice i would make its a choice i hope to dear god our other members dont make otherwise we might end up not existing and in all honestly i would rather pay my money and keep us going (even if we dont win) then not pay my money and have us go the way of Fitzroy

 

[StCicatriz]

you will take this the wrong way but that is being a bandwagon supporter ... the way the club spends my membership money wont matter to you if we start winning games ... so just say what you really mean.. until we get some success you are not on board ... thats fair enough thats your choice , its not a choice i would make its a choice i hope to dear god our other members dont make otherwise we might end up not existing and in all honestly i would rather pay my money and keep us going (even if we dont win) then not pay my money and have us go the way of Fitzroy

nope has nothing to do with success. it has to do with miss spending money.

i'm ok with poor performance if i can see things moving in the right direction. we are not. feels very populist.

 

[plugger66]

mate its literally in the 2nd paragraph!

Sorry I thought we were talking about a footy club

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Just out of my zone and got to much to do at my other club. Saints days are over for me in a helping perspective.

i was actually inviting StC pluggs ...

 

[StCicatriz]

Sorry I thought we were talking about a footy club

i know plug, it's a bit hard to tell sometimes isn't it ;-)

 

[plugger66]

i know plug, it's a bit hard to tell sometimes isn't it ;-)

No it isn’t unless you love hanging it on the club

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

nope has nothing to do with success. it has to do with miss spending money.

i'm ok with poor performance if i can see things moving in the right direction. we are not. feels very populist.

just some questions ...
did you ever go to Moorabbin befor the seaford move ?
did you ever go to Seaford ?
have you seen the new Moorabbin ?

if you answer yes to all three you would see the money has not been wasted ... if you see the medical facilities the club have today fro yester year you will know that the money hasnt been wasted ... hell when we signed richo to his extention you yourself thought it was a great idea ... mistakes get made and yes mistakes cost money and yes for our club when we dont have much money the mistakes hurt more but i put it to you the WCE make as many mistakes as what we do the differance is losing $30k on something doesnt hurt them its an opperational loss for us thats a big hit ...

 

[StCicatriz]

just some questions ...
did you ever go to Moorabbin befor the seaford move ?
did you ever go to Seaford ?
have you seen the new Moorabbin ?

if you answer yes to all three you would see the money has not been wasted ... if you see the medical facilities the club have today fro yester year you will know that the money hasnt been wasted ... hell when we signed richo to his extention you yourself thought it was a great idea ... mistakes get made and yes mistakes cost money and yes for our club when we dont have much money the mistakes hurt more but i put it to you the WCE make as many mistakes as what we do the differance is losing $30k on something doesnt hurt them its an opperational loss for us thats a big hit ...

that's flat out wrong. i wish people would stop pushing that bullshit.

i dont think wce have made as many mistakes as us over the course of this rebuild. hell even the course of history since their introduction. i would need more than two hands to count the devastating mistakes me have made since this century. tbh the only one i would put at the feet of wce was the drug saga. there's not a lot that goes wrong. we get things right but our issues is our highs are not as often as our lows in terms of decisions we make. we tend to have them crash and burn in a spectacular way where the effect from it is felt seasons later.

the spend on moorabbin was if i re-call around 5m. that's a great example of money spent wisely. for what is, is it now over a 60m facility? thats a fabulous achievement. we need more of that, especially for trying to generate money outside of football and paying down the debt.

its the one thing people use to counteract any argument against the management of the club. eventually the dust will settle, there will be no more construction projects, then what do we hang our hat on?

 

[George]

ahhh the old real/true supporter line...

i dunno about less money being counter intuitive to performance. i've seen departments take an axe to the budget due to poor results only for the department to produce better results on the reduced budget. mainly due to the deadwood being cut after the budget is wound back and getting a different direction due to senior management being held to account for what they've delivered. there are cases where the worst possible thing would have been to keep those in charge. the business would eventually go under.

budget cuts suck. not going to say it's always good. but i think hiding away from the actual reality of the situation and performance is worse. rolling along with the same old outcome. it's better to stick to the reality of it, hold the line and move it in the right direction. for all the chest beating about the much improved football department, we've seen a net ladder gain of 2 spots, with a softer draw. when it all comes out in the wash, it could remain the same. we could keep the same senior management and be in the same position in 3 years time!

that's how i view my contribution. no point giving it to something for it to be misspent or if you have no faith in the overall direction and management.

money can't be too tight at the saints if they were so quick to re-sign richo with not enough protection to remove him in 2018. we can't be too tight if we are appointing searle to a development coach position on the back of very little experience. list goes on and on. how many memberships do you need to pay richo his salary. what about searle? and so on?

plus if it was all about dollars, pies would win the flag every year or wce. dogs would never have got it done. neither sydney.

the sticky issue here is the AFL industry is the only one funded by such a strong connection to loyalty, with very little regard for performance. what other organisation can just demand money from its customers like that.

Yes the true supporter line. Supporters support. Boycotting games and withdrawing financially isn't supporting. That's just common sense.

Nobody is demanding money from anyone. You take things way too far/over the top with some of your analysis.

It's obvious that clubs that continue to push for finals and flags are well funded. There's a reason that Collingwood, West Coast, Richmond, Geelong and Hawthorn are there, have been there or are always thereabouts. It's because they have the money to appoint quality people.

You don't think we're too tight financially? Did you forget about the debt we're in? How do you suppose we pay that back? We do so by members sticking by the club and giving them a better platform to work from to then go and appoint better people who in turn will improve the off-field financials of the club and attract better players, and that's only when we get better on field. Basically what Trav said a few posts ago.

I don't think any logical person would say boycotting games and withdrawing your membership is of any benefit to the club.

 

[JiggsteR45]

i dont know a single person who thinks the club is faultless .... our club makes many mistakes ... our club are downright stupid at times .. but they are still our club ..
now i may be alone in this thought (although i reckon im not) but to me my love of my club runs deeper than the 22 who run out each week , it runs deeper than the win/loss record ... i want success more than anything but its not the driving force on why i support my club ....
look the truth of it is we will most likely sack Richo , but thats not going to fix everything we will still have days when we dont perform , we will still have misses in tradeing and drafting, we will still make mistakes in managment..
at the end of the day its a game of football the thing that makes a club is so much more than that ..
its the Georgie Day who runs our herritage museum
its the Ken Whiffens who was a trainer with the club well into his 80's
its the Angels who feed the boys during the week and help the disadvantaged with membership so they can go to the footy to forget about their troubles for a while.
its the Joe and Bailey from the cheersquad who each week make the banner and bring their cheer to the game
its the supporter groups across the country ...
its about the mates you make talking crap about the footy with, its the passing down of stories to our kids , its about seeing our kids grow to love the club we love just like we did ...
thats what it means to be a st kilda person makeing the most out of what we have in the hope we will get there in the end and if we dont at least we give it a crack ...
im not going to tell anyone how to spend their money but understand being a member is more than the game on the weekend thats an important part but its really about the people

Now THAT’S a GREAT post Colleague!!!! Friends! Banter! Footy! If I was driven solely by results I’d have given it away yonks ago!!!!

Meeting pals at the footy, enjoying their company through tough times and triumphs! THAT’S what supporting a footy club is about!!!!!

God how I love this crazy, maddening, heartbreaking, inspirational, magnificently eccentric club!!! [emoji837][emoji836]️[emoji835]️

 

[StCicatriz]

Yes the true supporter line. Supporters support. Boycotting games and withdrawing financially isn't supporting. That's just common sense.

Nobody is demanding money from anyone. You take things way too far/over the top with some of your analysis.

It's obvious that clubs that continue to push for finals and flags are well funded. There's a reason that Collingwood, West Coast, Richmond, Geelong and Hawthorn are there, have been there or are always thereabouts. It's because they have the money to appoint quality people.

You don't think we're too tight financially? Did you forget about the debt we're in? How do you suppose we pay that back? We do so by members sticking by the club and giving them a better platform to work from to then go and appoint better people who in turn will improve the off-field financials of the club and attract better players, and that's only when we get better on field. Basically what Trav said a few posts ago.

I don't think any logical person would say boycotting games and withdrawing your membership is of any benefit to the club.

it's interesting. many of those clubs you mentioned were in a very precarious position not long ago. it seems the clubs who have rebounded enacted meaningful change on the back of poor performance both on field and off it. they didn't argue loyalty or make excuses for their position. they changed the leadership of the club and moved in a different direction.

for example WCE were near on insolvent in the 90s, here's a good quick summary:

From a hell of an existence and near collapse to financial powerhouse

When the West Coast Eagles joined the Victorian Football League in the 1980s, they were essentially set up to fail — and soon the club was broke and on life support. How times have changed, writes Clint Thomas.

www.abc.net.au

if i re-call Geelong and hawthorn were in a similar position in the 90s. Hawthorn near on merged. Geelong were close to bankrupt, riddled with debt. Geelong now play its own games at its own stadium, built by the government, in a similar way to how we have had our new digs built. they get the best stadium return of any club. over 90c in the dollar. brian cook was brought in.

Collingwood towards the late 90s found its self in a similar mess. again they changed the leadership. in comes eddie. then malthouse. they haven't looked back since.

Richmond is the most recent example. imagine if they genuinely believed in the excuses and stuck with Wallace and Wright. which is funny cause i reckon we are mirroring them quite a lot right now!

 

[plugger66]

it's interesting. many of those clubs you mentioned were in a very precarious position not long ago. it seems the clubs who have rebounded enacted meaningful change on the back of poor performance both on field and off it. they didn't argue loyalty or make excuses for their position. they changed the leadership of the club and moved in a different direction.

for example WCE were near on insolvent in the 90s, here's a good quick summary:

From a hell of an existence and near collapse to financial powerhouse

When the West Coast Eagles joined the Victorian Football League in the 1980s, they were essentially set up to fail — and soon the club was broke and on life support. How times have changed, writes Clint Thomas.

www.abc.net.au

if i re-call Geelong and hawthorn were in a similar position in the 90s. Hawthorn near on merged. Geelong were close to bankrupt, riddled with debt. Geelong now play its own games at its own stadium, built by the government, in a similar way to how we have had our new digs built. they get the best stadium return of any club. over 90c in the dollar. brian cook was brought in.

Collingwood towards the late 90s found its self in a similar mess. again they changed the leadership. in comes eddie. then malthouse. they haven't looked back since.

Richmond is the most recent example. imagine if they genuinely believed in the excuses and stuck with Wallace and Wright.

Imagine if Richmond didn’t get huge memberships. Don’t think many thought not joining was a good idea. Same with nearly every single club mentioned