EPL Matchday 4

kangaspurs

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Foul starts outside the box and VAR only awards penalties and not FKs?
From everything I've read in the discussion about this incident on Twitter, the rules say that even if a foul starts outside the box, if it continues into the box it's a pen.
 

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jd2010

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From everything I've read in the discussion about this incident on Twitter, the rules say that even if a foul starts outside the box, if it continues into the box it's a pen.
They must have changed the rule if that's the case. I remember a heap of FKs which started outside but finished inside not end up as penalties.
 

jd2010

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If there is a foul on an attacker which starts outside the penalty area and continues inside then a penalty should be awarded. If the foul is committed outside the area and the player falls inside the box then a free-kick outside is correct
 

carnthemlions

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LOL in what world is this not a foul? If VAR says that it's a subjective decision to not award this, then it has to look at it because it's objectively wrong.

Now post the corner where Vertonghen appears to stop Sokratis jumping at the ball, that was a penalty every time at the WC. Both would be bullshit penalties though, stop whinging about extremely minor incidents that happened to occur in the box.
 

Bradesmaen

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If there is a foul on an attacker which starts outside the penalty area and continues inside then a penalty should be awarded. If the foul is committed outside the area and the player falls inside the box then a free-kick outside is correct
Which it is borderline in this case. Benefit of the doubt stays with the offender. But to be honest how many of those do you see at corners and are not given as pens.
 

jd2010

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Which it is borderline in this case. Benefit of the doubt stays with the offender. But to be honest how many of those do you see at corners and are not given as pens.
Yeah opens a can of worms and I'm sure there's been a heap like it not given. The WC went hard on it but unless you are doing that in 38 GWs then no point starting now
 

kangaspurs

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Now post the corner where Vertonghen appears to stop Sokratis jumping at the ball, that was a penalty every time at the WC. Both would be bulls**t penalties though, stop whinging about extremely minor incidents that happened to occur in the box.
You can post it if you want. Feel free.

And minor? LOL since when is tackling someone to the ground a minor incident?
 

Bradesmaen

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Yeah opens a can of worms and I'm sure there's been a heap like it not given. The WC went hard on it but unless you are doing that in 38 GWs then no point starting now
I like the idea of people having to defend a corner by being able to head the ball etc rather than tackle a player... but it will open a can of 30 penalty worms a weekend until people stop doing it.
 

kangaspurs

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Which it is borderline in this case. Benefit of the doubt stays with the offender. But to be honest how many of those do you see at corners and are not given as pens.
Well it's not borderline at all. The bear hug tackle clearly continues into the box.

But isn't that the point of VAR, to pick up these types of things?
 

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jd2010

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I like the idea of people having to defend a corner by being able to head the ball etc rather than tackle a player... but it will open a can of 30 penalty worms a weekend until people stop doing it.
Yeah I agree it'll be a lot of pens given for the greater good. Or they could come out in pre season and say any holding at FKs/corners will be awarded a penalty or in this case a new foul on the edge of the box
 

jd2010

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Well it's not borderline at all. The bear hug tackle clearly continues into the box.

But isn't that the point of VAR, to pick up these types of things?
The only thing VAR can be used for there is where the foul happened. But they haven't been as strict on holding in the PL as they were the WC
 

kangaspurs

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The only thing VAR can be used for there is where the foul happened. But they haven't been as strict on holding in the PL as they were the WC
So they can't call a foul if it's missed?

As I said, this is where the whole subjective thing is problematic. It's subjective decisions that lead to errors in the first place.

Apparently there was an incident in a game on Saturday night too where Mike Dean said after the game that he didn't see an incident, yet VAR judged it to be a 'subjective' decision. If VAR is only going to be used for offsides and to determine handballs in the lead up to a goal, as it seems to have been so far, then that's fine, but they should explicitly state that.
 

Blueboys11

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Foul starts outside the box and VAR only awards penalties and not FKs?
Yep this. There was a similar thing last week with Martial i think where he got pulled down but the contact started from outside the box so VAR couldnt intervene. Having said that if the ref has seen that contact, not sure how that isnt a free kick
 

Bradesmaen

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Well it's not borderline at all. The bear hug tackle clearly continues into the box.

But isn't that the point of VAR, to pick up these types of things?
Not really. His feet are still outside so it's likely it wasn't in the box. He certainly fell into it.
 

Blueboys11

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So they can't call a foul if it's missed?

As I said, this is where the whole subjective thing is problematic. It's subjective decisions that lead to errors in the first place.

Apparently there was an incident in a game on Saturday night too where Mike Dean said after the game that he didn't see an incident, yet VAR judged it to be a 'subjective' decision. If VAR is only going to be used for offsides and to determine handballs in the lead up to a goal, as it seems to have been so far, then that's fine, but they should explicitly state that.
I think that might of been relating to Kanes one last week. Kane said the ref told him he couldnt see it.

Which adds more credence to the ref actually going to the pitchside monitor and actually looking at the foul. Then he actually makes a decision based on all the facts.
 

carnthemlions

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You can post it if you want. Feel free.

And minor? LOL since when is tackling someone to the ground a minor incident?
Why bother, you've already missed the point of what I said completely. Using VAR to rule on this sort of incident would be idiotic and can result in more bullshit penalties that add nothing to the game. Yeah but yay HARRY KANE scores another penalty. zzzz
 

kangaspurs

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Why bother, you've already missed the point of what I said completely. Using VAR to rule on this sort of incident would be idiotic and can result in more bulls**t penalties that add nothing to the game. Yeah but yay HARRY KANE scores another penalty. zzzz
What do you mean 'this sort of incident?' How often is a player literally bear hugged to the ground? And add nothing to the game? I would suggest that a penalty that should have been given in the dying moments of one of the biggest local derbies in the league would absolutely be adding something to the game.

Not really. His feet are still outside so it's likely it wasn't in the box. He certainly fell into it.
By fell into it, you mean tackled into it, right? The foul is clearly continuing when he falls into the box. Also, I'm not sure on this one, but on the line is considered in the box, is it not? If so, then it's 100% in the box even earlier.
 

go you pups

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I thought you had a really good window. Brought in some good players so I thought a challenge was on. But it's all fallen a little flat.
We're short still at RB due to injury/sales, LB stinks, then there's massive question marks over the futures of Vertonghen, Alderweireld and Eriksen still.

Ndombele belatedly replaced Dembele, dunno who Lo Celso is coming in for, Sessegnon is a bit random, he might be in line to replace Rose eventually, but also he could be part of our attacking depth if Poch sees him as a winger

Dybala would've papered over some cracks but the side is largely still the same
 

jd2010

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So they can't call a foul if it's missed?

As I said, this is where the whole subjective thing is problematic. It's subjective decisions that lead to errors in the first place.

Apparently there was an incident in a game on Saturday night too where Mike Dean said after the game that he didn't see an incident, yet VAR judged it to be a 'subjective' decision. If VAR is only going to be used for offsides and to determine handballs in the lead up to a goal, as it seems to have been so far, then that's fine, but they should explicitly state that.
VAR doesn't award free kicks. Just penalties and offside or fouls in the build up to a goal
 

Bradesmaen

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What do you mean 'this sort of incident?' How often is a player literally bear hugged to the ground? And add nothing to the game? I would suggest that a penalty that should have been given in the dying moments of one of the biggest local derbies in the league would absolutely be adding something to the game.


By fell into it, you mean tackled into it, right? The foul is clearly continuing when he falls into the box. Also, I'm not sure on this one, but on the line is considered in the box, is it not? If so, then it's 100% in the box even earlier.
I'm not sure if the line is considered the box or not. He fell into the box yes, but that was after the tackling stops. On that vision it is nowhere near clear enough to definitively say that it was inside the box. His legs are outside the box when he falls, how can you say that he was inside the box?
 

jd2010

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Neither the Kane or Dele ones are clear cut 100% penalties. But could see both being awarded so to not get either is a bit unlucky. But we rode our luck in the City 2-2 so it all balances out. 5 points from 4 games isn't too bad considering who we've had. Shame it's not 8 from the 4 games as that would have a fantastic start to the season
 

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