Equal Last!

[Ned_Flanders]

Looking at our starting midfield yesterday, I'm surprised one question isn't being asked

 

[TheProwler]

We will pay for this season next year with our draw. Those that choose to turn up next year better keep Sunday nights free.

 

[_Wang_]

**** this season I mean I just didn't see it coming..

 

[ReaperX]

This is a team of downhill skiers. No two ways about it.

The only player's who consistently seem to play okay when the chips are Riewoldt, Cotchin and Rance.

Deledio is the biggest downhill skier of them all. What a career he could have had.

Really? I think if you're predominately talking about this season, you'd have to say that Jack Riewoldt has portrayed the characteristics of a "downhill skier" more than Deledio has.

Apart from his 11 goal haul against the Giants, he has been the king of junk-time goals this season. That's not to say that he isn't a valuable player, or that he isn't apart of our future, but from your criteria of "when the chips are down", I have rarely seen Jack kick goals that have kept us alive in matches this season.

Also, Cotchin and Rance have struggled with their DE all year, and are the constant cause of turnovers "when the chips are down"

What I HAVE seen, is Deledio's run and elite use of the ball get us back into matches, and while it is true that he does have a tough time breaking tags sometimes, I also think he's improved in this area in 2014 too.

Deledio's importance to our team was summed up when he was absent from our team, and our run was practically non-existent. I would almost go as far as to say that if Deledio had been in the team all year, we may not have dropped the Western Bulldogs or Melbourne games (Western Bulldogs because he wasn't there, and Melbourne because, while he did play, I don't think he was at 100% match fitness).

I actually feel that Deledio and Martin have been our two most important players so far this season, Martin obviously more-so because he's played almost every game, but Deledio because his injury, and subsequent lack of match fitness when he returned, hurt us immensely. And I would think Martin would be leading the B&F at the moment.

 

[Roachy8]

Looking at our starting midfield yesterday, I'm surprised one question isn't being asked

Sherman or Leopard?

 

[marcus12]

The only problem with that is that Hardwick desperately needs to get us winning consistently to keep his job. The club can not through the season in the bin with him in charge. He's got to prove he can coach and get these players up to the standard they where playing last year. We beat Hawks and Freo last year ( nearly beat Freo in Perth also) so to shut up shop without replacing him would be the dumbest thing to do on earth unfortunately . If they have their eye on someone else then shut up shop now .

well the way i see it, we tank, get the draft pic, DH loses his job. Its win-win for us. Then we can use that money on getting a good coach instead of a good player. We'll probably just end up destroying the good player's carreer anyways, so its better invested into a coach

 

[sante]

I'm just over 2014. We might be okay next year

 

[Roachy8]

I'm just over 2014. We might be okay next year

Yup - well and truly lacking interest now.
Hell, Swans have won 8 straight and played a pulsating winning game yesterday and might be a bit flat on a Friday night at the G this week.
Stiff shit if we bag an unlikely win.... Horse has bolted and is already in my tube of Araldite....

 

[Neen]

Really? I think if you're predominately talking about this season, you'd have to say that Jack Riewoldt has portrayed the characteristics of a "downhill skier" more than Deledio has.

Apart from his 11 goal haul against the Giants, he has been the king of junk-time goals this season. That's not to say that he isn't a valuable player, or that he isn't apart of our future, but from your criteria of "when the chips are down", I have rarely seen Jack kick goals that have kept us alive in matches this season.

Also, Cotchin and Rance have struggled with their DE all year, and are the constant cause of turnovers "when the chips are down"

What I HAVE seen, is Deledio's run and elite use of the ball get us back into matches, and while it is true that he does have a tough time breaking tags sometimes, I also think he's improved in this area in 2014 too.

Deledio's importance to our team was summed up when he was absent from our team, and our run was practically non-existent. I would almost go as far as to say that if Deledio had been in the team all year, we may not have dropped the Western Bulldogs or Melbourne games (Western Bulldogs because he wasn't there, and Melbourne because, while he did play, I don't think he was at 100% match fitness).

I actually feel that Deledio and Martin have been our two most important players so far this season, Martin obviously more-so because he's played almost every game, but Deledio because his injury, and subsequent lack of match fitness when he returned, hurt us immensely. And I would think Martin would be leading the B&F at the moment.

Were were absolutely hopeless without Lids in the side. He gets bagged for not being able to cope with a tag, but the tagger ALWAYS goes to Lids. When Lids was out, the tagger went to Cotchin. Lets face it, there are not many players that regularly break tags like Ablett, Pendlebury, Selwood and Judd. I think Martin is almost untaggable, but what are teams going to do, tag Lids, Cotchin and Martin ? Taggers go straight to Lids as they know he is one of few players that will break the lines.

Martin would be miles in front of the B&F as the half way mark of the season.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Sherman or Leopard?

I hope we aren't doing it, but have to admit I thought Sherman when I heard the names

 

[Calcium Man]

Looking at our starting midfield yesterday, I'm surprised one question isn't being asked

Missed the first 10 min. Who started??

 

[fleabitten]

All of the other losses have been games where, at some point or another in the contest, we have been in a highly winnable position, but haven't taken our opportunities or had the composure to see it through. That reeks to me of a team burdened by the pressure of expectation.

So this thread is actually a really healthy thing for the team. Go us!

 

[ReaperX]

Were were absolutely hopeless without Lids in the side. He gets bagged for not being able to cope with a tag, but the tagger ALWAYS goes to Lids. When Lids was out, the tagger went to Cotchin. Lets face it, there are not many players that regularly break tags like Ablett, Pendlebury, Selwood and Judd. I think Martin is almost untaggable, but what are teams going to do, tag Lids, Cotchin and Martin ? Taggers go straight to Lids as they know he is one of few players that will break the lines.

Martin would be miles in front of the B&F as the half way mark of the season.

100% agree, Martin is dynamic, but more effective up the ground, whereas Deledio is the "Martin" of the half-back line.

Tag Lids out, and you limit the damage a guy like Martin can do too, because the ball won't be in Martin's part of the ground enough.

Lids is the glue of this team in many ways.

 

[juss]

Watch us win 6 meaningless games and lose a top 5 pick.

 

[ReaperX]

So this thread is actually a really healthy thing for the team. Go us!

Lamenting the disappointment of this season is fair enough, of that I have no issue with the conduct of this board as a whole. This season has sucked, and we have not performed to the required standard that we expected to after such a good year last year.

The issue I have though, is that people instantly equate this one poor year of stagnant development with the notions that we have to "start all over again", "sack the coach", "our whole list is full of duds", etc, when it's that very same coach and mostly that same list that had everybody claiming our golden era was here not 12 months ago.

I'm merely trying to point out that both extremes are wrong. We have work to do, and we must improve dramatically from this horror year, but the future is not lost, and the last thing we as a club need, is to put unnecessary pressure on the powers that be to satisfy our bloodlust for the coach's head, lest we be doomed to repeat past mistakes and cause Tigerland to become unstable yet again.

Give Dimma until the end of his current contract. If he hasn't turned it around by that time, well then the discussion about his future is a much more reasonable one. Personally, I believe he will, and that alot of so-called supporters will have egg on their faces when Dimma has us seriously challenging for Top 4 and a premiership. And the evidence over the last 3 years is there that backs up my belief, so much so that if I turn out to be wrong, I'm willing to risk my reputation on the fact by defending what he trying to achieve.

 

[fleabitten]

That's a very reasonable position to hold and I'm sure deep down, most people here agree with you.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Missed the first 10 min. Who started??

Forget the names, but none of Cotchin, Martin, Lids, Ellis, Vlas . Even the aw commentators said we were going in with our b team

 

[DustinsGuns]

Give Dimma until the end of his current contract. If he hasn't turned it around by that time, well then the discussion about his future is a much more reasonable one. Personally, I believe he will, and that alot of so-called supporters will have egg on their faces when Dimma has us seriously challenging for Top 4 and a premiership. And the evidence over the last 3 years is there that backs up my belief, so much so that if I turn out to be wrong, I'm willing to risk my reputation on the fact by defending what he trying to achieve.

While I don't believe we should sack Dimma right now, I also don't believe - regardless of results, he should serve out the remainder of his contract like you are suggesting. He has another two years post this one. Currently after 5 years we will have played in one final (won't play finals this year). If he doesn't get us into the top 8 next year, or doesn't look like it by mid season - I think he has to go. No coach should get 6 full years with only a single finals appearance and certainly not 7.

I'm of the believe that the board, development and recruiting should cop as much - if not more pressure then Dimma. Over the past 7 drafts we have failed to get anymore then 40 games out of a pick higher then pick 20. The highest is Batchelor on 39 games (not including Houli PSD). Not since Shane Edwards was taken at pick 26 in the 2006 draft. That is awful recruitment/development if you ask me. And serious questions need to be asked.

 

[DustinsGuns]

Missed the first 10 min. Who started??

Cotchin, Miles, Petterd

 

[TigerGlory]

Dont care anymore, stopped caring after the Melbourne game.

Now I only watch for teh lulz and for Hampson failz.

 

[Calcium Man]

Forget the names, but none of Cotchin, Martin, Lids, Ellis, Vlas . Even the aw commentators said we were going in with our b team

No Cotchin is bad but we never play our best mids together like Cotchin, Lids, Dusty, Vlas, Conca ect... only 1 of those guys in the square (And very rarely are Deledio or Martin in the square more on the wings) with two of S.Edwards, Petterd, Jackson, Thomas, Ellis(Not a good inside player), Houli (not much but you'd be surprised how often he is in there), Grigg (seems to start there every 2nd stoppage, Foley (yesterday was much better from him but nowhere near what he was) ect... Last year was similar but Cotchin had Tuck next to him and the year before we actually put Deledio in the centre square a lot.

In comparison watch how often Freo have Fyfe, Mundy and Barlow in the square together.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

No Cotchin is bad but we never play our best mids together like Cotchin, Lids, Dusty, Vlas, Conca ect... only 1 of those guys in the square (And very rarely are Deledio or Martin in the square more on the wings) with two of S.Edwards, Petterd, Jackson, Thomas, Ellis(Not a good inside player), Houli (not much but you'd be surprised how often he is in there), Grigg (seems to start there every 2nd stoppage, Foley (yesterday was much better from him but nowhere near what he was) ect... Last year was similar but Cotchin had Tuck next to him and the year before we actually put Deledio in the centre square a lot.

In comparison watch how often Freo have Fyfe, Mundy and Barlow in the square together.

Petts and Miles though?

 

[Calcium Man]

Petts and Miles though?

It's something i've had a problem with for sometime. Dimma has for a long been trying to push our best players to be purely outside, especially Deledio and Martin. I can see that he wants them kicking more often as they are our best users but its makes them role players. Dusty has got better through natural progression but Deledio has suffered under it (And so has Riewoldt) IMO, he's a guy that you need to let loose to do his own thing not try and stuff him in a box, that coupled with injury and Dimma's inability to discipline properly and Deledio is right off the boil.

And its a problem right across the squad. Madonna has 17 clearances in a game at VFL level but because he is a beautiful kick we push him to HBF, Vlastuin and Conca are in similar boats. Helbig and Arnot are hard at it midfielders but we push them outside when they get to AFL level as a Forward or Back Pocket. While a guy like Grigg who is a cherry picker we are trying to push more into a inside mid because he can't kick, similar could said for S.Edwards. Vickery was developing as a decent Forward/Ruck and we decided to make him a pure Forward.

I'm not against trying to develop flexibility in players, learning on the back flank is a good experience for all kids. But Dimma has this overall plan and is trying to force the players to fit it instead of looking at what he has got and developing a game plan to fit the players. So i think it looks like tanking but instead i think its Dimma's inflexibility and failure to evolve.

 

[Roachy8]

It's something i've had a problem with for sometime. Dimma has for a long been trying to push our best players to be purely outside, especially Deledio and Martin. I can see that he wants them kicking more often as they are our best users but its makes them role players. Dusty has got better through natural progression but Deledio has suffered under it (And so has Riewoldt) IMO, he's a guy that you need to let loose to do his own thing not try and stuff him in a box, that coupled with injury and Dimma's inability to discipline properly and Deledio is right off the boil.

And its a problem right across the squad. Madonna has 17 clearances in a game at VFL level but because he is a beautiful kick we push him to HBF, Vlastuin and Conca are in similar boats. Helbig and Arnot are hard at it midfielders but we push them outside when they get to AFL level as a Forward or Back Pocket. While a guy like Grigg who is a cherry picker we are trying to push more into a inside mid because he can't kick, similar could said for S.Edwards. Vickery was developing as a decent Forward/Ruck and we decided to make him a pure Forward.

I'm not against trying to develop flexibility in players, learning on the back flank is a good experience for all kids. But Dimma has this overall plan and is trying to force the players to fit it instead of looking at what he has got and developing a game plan to fit the players. So i think it looks like tanking but instead i think its Dimma's inflexibility and failure to evolve.

I actually hope Lids is injured because if his reduced influence and output is a result of some cunning plan then WTF???!!!
Guy is one of the prime movers and users in the comp. when he streaming through the middle.

 

[Calcium Man]

I actually hope Lids is injured because if his reduced influence and output is a result of some cunning plan then WTF???!!!
Guy is one of the prime movers and users in the comp. when he streaming through the middle.

Yeah i agree. But i more mean putting him in the middle gets him a chance to impact the game more. Pushing him to be purely outside has limited his inside impact and turned 30 possession games in to 22-23 possession games