Toast Esava

[you pick one]

It should not go unnoticed that a 3 gamer had 3 critical score involvements in Sav's position in the last 1/4 - a kick to the goal square and 2 fantastic handballs - I wonder if those happen with Sav in the frame?
Sav needs to show more , much more actually. A mark on the wing that fell into his hands doesn't cut it.
In terms of opportunity cost I'd like to see Neale in the Sav role , perfect chance this week as he played well in the 2's.
IMHO Neale is a special talent who will show a bit in the 1's on the back of better structure and execution.
I was pissed off we lost Kreuger - I'll be livid if Neale heads back to the West ................

And was credited with a goal assist equalling what Sav's achieved in this last dozen games.

 

[Partridge]

Irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant. Strawman argument after strawman argument. The original point, before you derailed everything, is that Esava is a young, developing KPF. He is going to be inconsistent week-to-week.

If the echo chamber here was in charge we would have delisted Hawkins, C.Guthrie, Blicavs, Parfitt, Bews and Henry by now. Luckily our list managers aren't so short-sighted.

Hawkins showed tons more which has been documented many times. Guthrie starred in a finals series when he was still shy of 50 games.

It's absolutely valid that he needs time to develop. The problem is we really haven't had a breakout game yet. That needs to happen pretty quickly.

 

[goyoucatters]

Again, Ratugolea turns 24 in July, he has 58 senior games under his belt & it's his 6th season on the list - he's not some kid in their first or second year with a handful of games under their belt who's just now stepping up to play with the big boys

So, at what stage will be stop being a young, developing KP(?) player, where excuses are made for him being inconsistent? Cause really, one could argue he's rather consistent in terms of being underwhelming and that he's development stalled

Surely serious consideration needs to be given to sending him back to the VFL, giving him an extended run at that level with a focus on a specific role, and bringing confidence to his game

I would be fascinated to see some evidence of another club that has carried a player in his role for this long with so little meaningful output. Genuinely curious about this, as I can't think of a single example of a player across the league who's provided such limited tangible benefit on the field and yet played so many senior games.

One thing Esava won't be able to do whenever his career ends at the Cats is say that he was never really given a chance.

 

[standupand]

Hawkins showed tons more which has been documented many times. Guthrie starred in a finals series when he was still shy of 50 games.

It's absolutely valid that he needs time to develop. The problem is we really haven't had a breakout game yet. That needs to happen pretty quickly.

Part of that is the role they have him playing. Take Guthrie as an example, it's true he had a few breakout games early in his career when he was played as a mid. Dangerfield came into the team and Guth got shifted around half back and wing and various places, his form really dropped off. I think its similar with Sav with Cameron coming into the team. Esava has been used in the ruck more and had to try and learn other roles, hasn't had the chance to develop alongside Hawkins as much as we'd like. And yet he did have a bit of a breakout game up forward against Richmond where he kicked four. I'm not against him spending some time in the VFL to develop further. But I also think the vitriol against him on here sometimes is totally unwarranted. People say he's been given every chance. Well, actually not really when you look at someone who's come back from a very serious injury and been asked to reinvent himself in different roles a few times early in your career to find a place in the side. To me it shows great resilience and team ethic.

 

[Partridge]

Part of that is the role they have him playing. Take Guthrie as an example, it's true he had a few breakout games early in his career when he was played as a mid. Dangerfield came into the team and Guth got shifted around half back and wing and various places, his form really dropped off. I think its similar with Sav with Cameron coming into the team. Esava has been used in the ruck more and had to try and learn other roles, hasn't had the chance to develop alongside Hawkins as much as we'd like. And yet he did have a bit of a breakout game up forward against Richmond where he kicked four. I'm not against him spending some time in the VFL to develop further. But I also think the vitriol against him on here sometimes is totally unwarranted. People say he's been given every chance. Well, actually not really when you look at someone who's come back from a very serious injury and been asked to reinvent himself in different roles a few times early in your career to find a place in the side. To me it shows great resilience and team ethic.

True, but a lot of other young players we've had have been shown the door after far fewer opportunities.

Not against the VFL development idea, but to me they need to decide what he is. Of course he'll spend time doing both, but he needs to become either a specialist ruckman or specialist key forward. Right now he's not quite either.

 

[PzBlinky]

Part of that is the role they have him playing. Take Guthrie as an example, it's true he had a few breakout games early in his career when he was played as a mid. Dangerfield came into the team and Guth got shifted around half back and wing and various places, his form really dropped off. I think its similar with Sav with Cameron coming into the team. Esava has been used in the ruck more and had to try and learn other roles, hasn't had the chance to develop alongside Hawkins as much as we'd like. And yet he did have a bit of a breakout game up forward against Richmond where he kicked four. I'm not against him spending some time in the VFL to develop further. But I also think the vitriol against him on here sometimes is totally unwarranted. People say he's been given every chance. Well, actually not really when you look at someone who's come back from a very serious injury and been asked to reinvent himself in different roles a few times early in your career to find a place in the side. To me it shows great resilience and team ethic.

The vitriol against Sav is very much unwarranted. If he doesn't have the skills to cut it as an AFL-level player, so be it - 99.9% of anyone who's kicked a Sherrin falls into that category. To get to the top level, especially as a late-comer to the game, is a testament to his effort.

Any criticism should be levelled at the match committee, who keeping picking him regardless of output and form. It's not like he's blackmailing them or anything (well, I assume it's not the case). It's not like he's teasing them with flashes of brilliance one week and then nothing the next - he's been consistently ineffective since the start of the season.

It's also an indication to the sorry state of our list. We refused to give Fort any game time - though that's a separate discussion. We brought Ceglar - yet another ruck with a history of injuries, who's now been injured twice without playing a senior game for us (again, not his fault). And we've got a couple of young rucks who despite promising signs, aren't there yet. So the argument of "we have to play Sav for structure" might be a valid one, but is also ridiculous considering how long we've had to address the issue.

I agree the ruck "experiment" should be dropped and he should be given a chance to develop as a KPF, but again, that's a call the match committee don't seem to believe in.

 

[#cats2021]

Has kicked 3 goals in 8 games since kicking 4 against Richmond in round 19.

Has not cracked 4 marks in a contest since.

 

[goyoucatters]

Has kicked 3 goals in 8 games since kicking 4 against Richmond in round 19.

Has not cracked 4 marks in a contest since.

Those who use the 'recent' four-goal game as evidence of his development always fail to mention his opponent on that occasion.

Ryan Garthwaite. Five seasons on the Tigers list for fourteen games, and now delisted. Only played that game because they were massively undermanned down back, and was out the door at Punt Road at the end of the season.

If you go back previous to that match, then, Esava's last match with more than one goal kicked was Round 17 2020. And his last match with more than two goals kicked was our SF in 2019.

Believe me, I get it, though. Nobody crashes packs better than our #17. Apparently worth a game each week almost purely based on this one intangible characteristic.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Those who use the 'recent' four-goal game as evidence of his development always fail to mention his opponent on that occasion.

Ryan Garthwaite. Five seasons on the Tigers list for fourteen games, and now delisted. Only played that game because they were massively undermanned down back, and was out the door at Punt Road at the end of the season.

If you go back previous to that match, then, Esava's last match with more than one goal kicked was Round 17 2020. And his last match with more than two goals kicked was our SF in 2019.

Believe me, I get it, though. Nobody crashes packs better than our #17. Apparently worth a game each week almost purely based on this one intangible characteristic.

I dont disagree with you re Sav - bar a couple of good games at the MCG very early on his career - except for that - he hasnt done much

However i do think you are a bit of a hypocrite - using your form card analysis - re Sav - pointing out his very ordinary stats

Because last year - you relentlessly week in week out - defended the selection of Luke Dahlhaus - who was beyond hopeless - it was like Geel were playing one man short - you kept posting and posting that Dahlhaus should keep his spot

So if you are going to quote stats - bagging the shit out of a certain player - then at least be consistent with all players on the list

 

[goyoucatters]

I dont disagree with you re Sav - bar a couple of good games at the MCG very early on his career - except for that - he hasnt done much

However i do think you are a bit of a hypocrite - using your form card analysis - re Sav - pointing out his very ordinary stats

Because last year - you relentlessly week in week out - defended the selection of Luke Dahlhaus - who was beyond hopeless - it was like Geel were playing one man short - you kept posting and posting that Dahlhaus should keep his spot

So if you are going to quote stats - bagging the shit out of a certain player - then at least be consistent with all players on the list

Feel free to provide even one post where I specifically defended Dahl's inclusion. I certainly may be guilty of a short memory. And I could absolutely imagine me defending his effort or his willingness to follow team directions, as a basis for why the M.C. continued to go with him. But to actually say I thought he was (most weeks) doing enough to justify inclusion in the team is a fair leap from there. So let's just say that I'll be somewhat surprised if you can stump up the clear evidence to support your claim here.

 

[Partridge]

Those who use the 'recent' four-goal game as evidence of his development always fail to mention his opponent on that occasion.

Ryan Garthwaite. Five seasons on the Tigers list for fourteen games, and now delisted. Only played that game because they were massively undermanned down back, and was out the door at Punt Road at the end of the season.

If you go back previous to that match, then, Esava's last match with more than one goal kicked was Round 17 2020. And his last match with more than two goals kicked was our SF in 2019.

Believe me, I get it, though. Nobody crashes packs better than our #17. Apparently worth a game each week almost purely based on this one intangible characteristic.

I'm becoming convinced that "crashes packs" is the modern euphemism for "can't mark".

 

[goyoucatters]

I'm becoming convinced that "crashes packs" is the modern euphemism for "can't mark".

I remember the halcyon days of footy where players would crash the pack and actually mark the footy at the same time.

Just that silly old footy nostalgia kicking in with me again, I guess.

 

[calder_daddy]

I remember the halcyon days of footy where players would crash the pack and actually mark the footy at the same time.

Just that silly old footy nostalgia kicking in with me again, I guess.

Aaron Naughton is one of the few footballers left who throw themselves into a pack and sometimes hang onto it
But will get his hands on it Atleast 9/10 times
Sav runs under the ball or tried from 4 deep and doesn’t even get past the hands in front of him

 

[cats_09]

Aaron Naughton is one of the few footballers left who throw themselves into a pack and sometimes hang onto it
But will get his hands on it Atleast 9/10 times
Sav runs under the ball or tried from 4 deep and doesn’t even get past the hands in front of him

If I was to nominate a Geelong player who "crashes" or attacks marking packs with real intent, I'd go Gary Rohan - there's times he will hit a pack hard with his intent being to hit the pack hard, and if the mark sticks then it sticks, but you can see his aim is to create a contest

 

[calder_daddy]

If I was to nominate a Geelong player who "crashes" or attacks marking packs with real intent, I'd go Gary Rohan - there's times he will hit a pack hard with his intent being to hit the pack hard, and if the mark sticks then it sticks, but you can see his aim is to create a contest

Yes spot on

 

[Partridge]

Aaron Naughton is one of the few footballers left who throw themselves into a pack and sometimes hang onto it
But will get his hands on it Atleast 9/10 times
Sav runs under the ball or tried from 4 deep and doesn’t even get past the hands in front of him

I still remember the mark Hawkins took against Hawthorn in 2012. To me it was the best mark he's taken (and it was the best overall game he's played for us, just slaughtered them, not the after the siren game, the first one that season). At that point pre-back issues he really did launch into packs and opponents and take some great pack marks.

 

[calder_daddy]

I posted this in another thread but it’s more suitable here so reposting it.


Sav made his AFL debut in 19 years 244 days

In his Debut match Sav had 8 disposals 1 goal

Shannon Neale is 19 years 255 days old.

The same people who argue we need to get games into KPP like Sav also argue Neale isn’t ready.

 

[Warhorse]

I posted this in another thread but it’s more suitable here so reposting it.


Sav made his AFL debut in 19 years 244 days

In his Debut match Sav had 8 disposals 1 goal

Shannon Neale is 19 years 255 days old.

The same people who argue we need to get games into KPP like Sav also argue Neale isn’t ready.

Sadly 8 disposals and 1 goal would be considered a good game for Sav. He averages less this year

 

[goyoucatters]

Feel free to provide even one post where I specifically defended Dahl's inclusion. I certainly may be guilty of a short memory. And I could absolutely imagine me defending his effort or his willingness to follow team directions, as a basis for why the M.C. continued to go with him. But to actually say I thought he was (most weeks) doing enough to justify inclusion in the team is a fair leap from there. So let's just say that I'll be somewhat surprised if you can stump up the clear evidence to support your claim here.

So just some background then to my supposed incessant defending of Dahl's selection through 2021. A selection of my 'posting and posting that Dahl should keep his spot' appears below...


Miers, Dahlhaus and Jenkins get one more chance, only because they'll resist making too many changes this early. Massively disappointed in all three of them last week. (after Round 1 v. Crows)

I understand that two weeks is probably too small a sample size for them to pull the trigger. But I'm looking at players like Dahl and Miers and hoping they're well and truly aware that what they've dished up so far isn't going to be enough to hold their places in the team. (after Round 2 v. Lions)

But just getting Danger and Rohan back next weekend will put Dahl in massive trouble, even if he survives the axe this weekend. (after Round 3 v. Hawks)

I'm hoping for: IN Danger, Parfitt, Rohan OUT Zuthrie, Dahl, Narkle (after Round 4 v. Dees)

IN: Cameron MOC Rata OUT: SDK Bews Close* *Should be Dahl, but (sadly) the MC will bottle it (after Round 5 v. Roos)

So you're looking at three additional 'outs' to play that entire group. If it was me, I'm going Jed, Kolo and Dahl. (after Round 10 v. Suns)


How any of the above equates to 'relentlessly, week in, week out, defending the selection of Luke Dahlhaus' is well beyond me, I'm afraid.

 

[calder_daddy]

Sadly 8 disposals and 1 goal would be considered a good game for Sav. He averages less this year

To be fair he had a few good games even with hit out numbers in his first year.
It’s almost like the more he’s been developed the further he’s gone backwards

 

[Down at K Park]

Sadly 8 disposals and 1 goal would be considered a good game for Sav. He averages less this year

His goal average for this year is 0.0. Complete donuts.

 

[calder_daddy]

His goal average for this year is 0.0. Complete donuts.

In his past 30 games he has kicked 16 goals
With 4 of those coming in one game.
So let’s take that away for a minute.
12 goals in 29 games?
I admit, don’t look at his stats
It only annoys you further

 

[cats_09]

In his past 30 games he has kicked 16 goals
With 4 of those coming in one game.
So let’s take that away for a minute.
12 goals in 29 games?
I admit, don’t look at his stats
It only annoys your further

but but but structure…

 

[mcwilrob]

So we played another top team last night without the liability that Esava is with his limited impact etc. and got the 4 points. Just sayin'

 

[Down at K Park]

We really missed his 4 touches, no goals and no score involements.