Toast Esava

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Turbocat said:
They should be doing everything they can to develop him... his kicking could be a lot better ..get the best kicking coach to spend the summer with him..it will take a while but the investment will pay you back by the time we want him to be THE #1 forward.
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Could be improved. Don't muck about with it too much, though. Mentally, he shows very good promise. He slots some good'uns.
 

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The rabbi said:
Do I detect sarcasm Reg?
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Yeah, a little. Have seen players on the fringe in good form, get a game in the seniors, out of position. Chris says they were playing so well in the reserves they deserve a run. So they play out of position because their spot hasn't come open - they don't do so well, and out they go. Sometimes even papers stamped. Seems like such a waste developing players. Better to tell the kid to keep his chin up and build on his game, and wait.

I'll tell you where the coach should want the players to play: in the top three. haha
 
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Some big contested marks tonight, one goal, a few hit outs, a clearance or two - what's a pass mark for a sub-50 game KF?

Are we measuring against all-time greats? If not who are the benchmarks?

I've preached patience with Ratugolea; he looks to have a bucketload of potential and once in a while he delivers on that promise - but it is a roller-coaster.
He had a nice patch last week against Melbourne, but earlier in that same game he'd exhausted my good will and clouded my eye to the future; I would've totally understood if he'd been axed for tonight's game against the Suns at that point. But he rallied and issued a reminder of his ability. Tonight was a slight improvement on that ... baby steps.

I suppose the alternative is giving the more experienced Josh Jenkins a run, but personally I hope the match committee continue to invest in the big key forward/ruckman.
 
Cursed_Cat said:
Some big contested marks tonight, one goal, a few hit outs, a clearance or two - what's a pass mark for a sub-50 game KF?

Are we measuring against all-time greats? If not who are the benchmarks?

I've preached patience with Ratugolea; he looks to have a bucketload of potential and once in a while he delivers on that promise - but it is a roller-coaster.
He had a nice patch last week against Melbourne, but earlier in that same game he'd exhausted my good will and clouded my eye to the future; I would've totally understood if he'd been axed for tonight's game against the Suns at that point. But he rallied and issued a reminder of his ability. Tonight was a slight improvement on that ... baby steps.

I suppose the alternative is giving the more experienced Josh Jenkins a run, but personally I hope the match committee continue to invest in the big key forward/ruckman.
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We should use Jenkins throughout the year and rest some forwards depending on matchups... particularly hawkins and rohan.
But yeah, I think SavRat is in Best 22.
 
He has the tools. When he clunks them it is always at the highest point. It's not like he's a Mason Cox who misreads the flight all the time.

He gets his run right. He just needs that bit more strength to hold on to grabs when crashing packs.
 
ChappyUK said:
He has the tools. When he clunks them it is always at the highest point. It's not like he's a Mason Cox who misreads the flight all the time.

He gets his run right. He just needs that bit more strength to hold on to grabs when crashing packs.
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he's not useless when the ball hits the deck, either, nor when linking up in general play - agile enough to buy himself some time and space, then generally uses it reasonably well - he'll get even better at all that, too, presumably
 
Cursed_Cat said:
he's not useless when the ball hits the deck, either, nor when linking up in general play - agile enough to buy himself some time and space, then generally uses it reasonably well - he'll get even better at all that, too, presumably
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Very nice piece of work to get Hawkins his first goal tonight.
His agility and pace on the ground is quite exceptional for someone his size.
 

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Cursed_Cat said:
he's not useless when the ball hits the deck, either, nor when linking up in general play - agile enough to buy himself some time and space, then generally uses it reasonably well - he'll get even better at all that, too, presumably
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It's true that his agility is impressive for his size. However, his footy IQ is extremely low; he doesn't see the game particularly well or make good decisions in general play. And that's without even mentioning his field kicking, which is atrocious.

I don't know, maybe I'm being harsh here, but personally I just can't see him ever being much of an asset in general play beyond the ability to act as a good chop-out option on the wing if he fulfills his potential. To take just one variable relevant to contributions in open play: Hawkins has gone at 0.8 goal assists per game through his career because his ball use in general play is elite for a KPF. I'd be surprised if Sav ever breaks the 0.5 assists per game mark.
 
Baudolino said:
It's true that his agility is impressive for his size. However, his footy IQ is extremely low; he doesn't see the game particularly well or make good decisions in general play. And that's without even mentioning his field kicking, which is atrocious.

I don't know, maybe I'm being harsh here, but personally I just can't see him ever being much of an asset in general play beyond the ability to act as a good chop-out option on the wing if he fulfills his potential. To take just one variable relevant to contributions in open play: Hawkins has gone at 0.8 goal assists per game through his career because his ball use in general play is elite for a KPF. I'd be surprised if Sav ever breaks the 0.5 assists per game mark.
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Sav should be persisted with in the ruck and imo it's the only position he's ever going to make it as an AFL player. We've seen glimpses of his ability at ground level and he's extremely agile for a big man. He's still very raw and still learning the game so he's going to make those decision making errors we've seen.

Let's give him another 30-40 games in the system as a ruckman and take it from there. I saw glimpses last night - and in the past - that he has what it takes to make it as an athletic ruckman. Let's not forget he's coming off a serious leg injury also.

There was a lot to like about his game yesterday.
 
Baudolino said:
It's true that his agility is impressive for his size. However, his footy IQ is extremely low; he doesn't see the game particularly well or make good decisions in general play. And that's without even mentioning his field kicking, which is atrocious.

I don't know, maybe I'm being harsh here, but personally I just can't see him ever being much of an asset in general play beyond the ability to act as a good chop-out option on the wing if he fulfills his potential. To take just one variable relevant to contributions in open play: Hawkins has gone at 0.8 goal assists per game through his career because his ball use in general play is elite for a KPF. I'd be surprised if Sav ever breaks the 0.5 assists per game mark.
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Partially agree that his footy IQ is lower than most; his shots at goal are a crap shoot but can't say I've ever really pegged him as a particularly poor kick in general play - but content to concede that point as it's not something that has stuck in my memory either way ..

So just to be clear Baudolino you don't think he is worth persisting with? Pick on good form only?

To reiterate my position, I reckon unless we are lucky enough to nab a top #5 draft pick we're not getting a 'sure-bet' KF anytime soon; very rare to draft a KF from outside of the top handful of draft selections (and a few of the best in the comp were gone before the competition even got a look-in, e.g. Jeremy Cameron) - Ben Brown is a rare example of an outlier in that he was taken relatively late and has had a very solid career as North's KF.

So imo unless we become bad enough that we earn a Top#5 draft pick by dent of poor performance, or we show the balls to trade our way into that Top#5, then we're going to continue to draft these speculative key forward prospects - then, either the club either a) invests in and commits to playing them warts and all, b) we leave them 'developing' in the VFL for a few years (and really, in today's market not many half-decent key forward prospects are going to have the patience and understanding to undertake that kind of apprenticeship - its not like the old days were a club could afford to leave a Roger Merrett running around in the twos) - or c) the final option, which I'd argue we've been taking for a few years now, is to cycle through a range of KF options without any real commitment in the hope that one will just bob up and perform virtually from day #1.

I suppose the other question is how necessary is it to run with two genuine Key forwards in the modern game? Even if the club falls on the side of only going with 1, Tom Hawkins days are winding down and we will need someone to fill the breach in the near future ...
 
Cursed_Cat said:
So just to be clear Baudolino you don't think he is worth persisting with? Pick on good form only?
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I don't mind persisting with him, and I acknowledge he has a lot of raw talent in a few particular areas, but my opinion is that we need to develop him as a ruck. I don't think he'll make it as a KPF.
 
Jack The Godfather said:
Sav should be persisted with in the ruck and imo it's the only position he's ever going to make it as an AFL player. We've seen glimpses of his ability at ground level and he's extremely agile for a big man. He's still very raw and still learning the game so he's going to make those decision making errors we've seen.

Let's give him another 30-40 games in the system as a ruckman and take it from there. I saw glimpses last night - and in the past - that he has what it takes to make it as an athletic ruckman. Let's not forget he's coming off a serious leg injury also.

There was a lot to like about his game yesterday.
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I agree. For me it's not necessarily that he'll be better in the ruck though, it's just that he goes so hard! The way he launches at the ball is like no other. He'll have a go from anywhere.
Bit worried if he keeps that up injuries will come (actually its not even a worry. They WILL come) and his career will be cut short.
Or if he just relies on that when he gets a bit older he won't be able to keep doing it and will have not much else in his game.
Your idea seems the way to go.
 
DanA said:
Hawkins couldn’t hit the side of a barn in 2011 but is now an elite set shot player. I could see Esava get better.
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Very common for big young forwards to be poor kicks early on, and to steadily improve, for a number of reasons - one being the need to develop endurance, which helps with concentration when kicking.
 
Baudolino said:
Hawkins' goalkicking accuracy during his first five years:

2007: 12.10
2008: 13.5
2009: 34.17
2010: 21.13
2011: 27.17

Ratugolea's goalkicking accuracy thus far:

2018: 7.7
2019: 15.15
2020: 1.3

Sav's is much worse.
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Not a natural kick of the footy.
 
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