Toast Esava

[standupand]

Question for the people who think Sav is tracking ok?
How do you rate Mason Cox and Tim Obrien.
All similar players, especially Obrien and Sav

O'Brien is probably a good comparison. I haven't been in the habit of watching Hawks games or trying to find the strengths in their players though so my rating wouldn't mean much. Cox is a different sort. Not a big contested player like Sav is, but perhaps the similarity is they are both confidence players. He's shown he can be really dangerous on his day like we saw in that 18 prelim, so you wonder why he hasn't kicked on from there. No-one's saying Sav will be a superstar, but he can be vital cog to our future forwardline post Hawkins, so why not persist with his development if he's also willing to persist?

 

[My Tilly]

O'Brien is 28 while Cox is 31.
Highly doubt Ratugolea is still the same player we see now in four years time.

 

[Vdubs]

I don't disagree about him not being the biggest concern. We have other major issues across the park that are more likely to cruel our chances overall. Doesn't alter my conviction that, in my 40+ years of watching the Cats, I've never seen a single player deliver so little in any of the roles allocated to him and yet still be selected for so many senior games.

That has been said about many other players in the hoops, all of whom I actually rated.
Never mind.

 

[goyoucatters]

That has been said about many other players in the hoops, all of whom I actually rated.
Never mind.

Of course it's been said about many other players. There's always going to be individuals who different supporters struggle to appreciate. For me, though, Esava now clutches the buttered confection as the player with the lowest 'effectiveness to games played' ratio in my time watching the hoops.

 

[Partridge]

It's far, far, far from an isolated incident, though. Just underlines what I believe we see way too often from him when the ball is in the air. And it's also a prime reason why, apart from preventing what would have been Toma's match-winning goal at home against the Blues in 2020, he shows no discernible defensive attributes whatsoever.

I genuinely cannot see how it's possible to defend his 'consistent' output as being seniors-worthy at this point in his career, no matter what role he's playing in the team. But I don't think you have any cause for concern, really. Shows every sign of being picked from here until eternity, no matter whether he's realising his mythical 'potential' or not.

It also blows to smithereens the notion that you have to knock the door down in the VFL to get to the senior team as well. He never did, never has, and doesn't look like delivering in the seniors.

Your first sentence is the most appropriate. It's not a one off. It's regular and expected, and he has no football nous to get involved.

For me, the air is coming out of his tyres very quickly now.

 

[calder_daddy]

O'Brien is 28 while Cox is 31.
Highly doubt Ratugolea is still the same player we see now in four years time.

Obrien had the same wraps Sav has now with potential being high and just flat lined through his career, I watch all of the hawks games and the 2 are absolutely similar in how they play the game

 

[My Tilly]

Obrien had the same wraps Sav has now with potential being high and just flat lined through his career, I watch all of the hawks games and the 2 are absolutely similar in how they play the game

Yeh that is a good point. I do remember O'Brien having bigger wraps though as Ratugolea was more a project player as he did not start playing until later in his teens.
We are talking about Chris Scott here. Remember when Nathan Buckley kept persisting with Mason Cox and a number of others and only until a new coach was appointed, they were no longer in the best 22?

I don't mind Ratugolea spending time in the VFL but perhaps the coaches need to try him in a different position other than ruck/forward.

 

[calder_daddy]

Yeh that is a good point. I do remember O'Brien having bigger wraps though as Ratugolea was more a project player as he did not start playing until later in his teens.
We are talking about Chris Scott here. Remember when Nathan Buckley kept persisting with Mason Cox and a number of others and only until a new coach was appointed, they were no longer in the best 22?

I don't mind Ratugolea spending time in the VFL but perhaps the coaches need to try him in a different position other than ruck/forward.

He needs to go to the vfl and dominate a few games for his own mindset.
Who knows he might feel like he can’t do it but if he goes back and does he will have that self belief.
Plenty of players haven’t started playing footy until 16, he’ll we even have 2 on our list who wouldn’t have picked up a footy until 20 “Blitz/O’Connor” I just don’t think Sav has what it takes to be a 150/200 game player, you only get there if you play some serious footy. He to me looks like a different version of Murdoch. Get to around 100 games, go to another club and be delisted in a year or 2

 

[Goggin Our Best]

It's far, far, far from an isolated incident, though. Just underlines what I believe we see way too often from him when the ball is in the air. And it's also a prime reason why, apart from preventing what would have been Toma's match-winning goal at home against the Blues in 2020, he shows no discernible defensive attributes whatsoever.

I genuinely cannot see how it's possible to defend his 'consistent' output as being seniors-worthy at this point in his career, no matter what role he's playing in the team. But I don't think you have any cause for concern, really. Shows every sign of being picked from here until eternity, no matter whether he's realising his mythical 'potential' or not.

Yeah but mate - you said in your summary after watching the VFL game that Ceglar was basically hopeless - you said he is either injured - or not up to it - or both - so i would say that rules him out at present being included in the Snr team

So Sav- and i thought he was better against the Swans - so you pick him for this weeks game

 

[goyoucatters]

Yeah but mate - you said in your summary after watching the VFL game that Ceglar was basically hopeless - you said he is either injured - or not up to it - or both - so i would say that rules him out at present being included in the Snr team

So Sav- and i thought he was better against the Swans - so you pick him for this weeks game

Sav will get picked regardless. And for many more games than just this next one, if past evidence is anything to go by.

If Neale can start putting some performances together, I'd be looking at him coming in down the track. Not interested in spinning the wheels with Ceglar at all.

 

[Sttew]

Yeah but mate - you said in your summary after watching the VFL game that Ceglar was basically hopeless - you said he is either injured - or not up to it - or both - so i would say that rules him out at present being included in the Snr team

So Sav- and i thought he was better against the Swans - so you pick him for this weeks game

His marks are starting to stick which had been his strength prior to 2022.

 

[mcwilrob]

So, realistic reviews of his game vs. Collingwood anyone? I wasn't there and have only watched last part of replay but it seemed he was pretty ineffective (again) and the team played its best footy in last Qtr when he was off the ground injured. Why does the "no other option" argument have any weight given that situation? Surely we'd be better off giving a younger player with more potential a chance to grow into the role given Esava has had a lot of time and continues to show very little week in, week out...

 

[BORIS332]

So, realistic reviews of his game vs. Collingwood anyone? I wasn't there and have only watched last part of replay but it seemed he was pretty ineffective (again) and the team played its best footy in last Qtr when he was off the ground injured. Why does the "no other option" argument have any weight given that situation? Surely we'd be better off giving a younger player with more potential a chance to grow into the role given Esava has had a lot of time and continues to show very little week in, week out...

The fact the team played its best footy in the last quarter is completely irrelevant, and a blatant causal fallacy. Yes, he was quiet. He had four disposals in the first half, so did Jeremy Cameron.

He is a young key position player, he will take time, there's no need for a weekly review.

 

[cats_09]

The fact the team played its best footy in the last quarter is completely irrelevant, and a blatant causal fallacy. Yes, he was quiet. He had four disposals in the first half, so did Jeremy Cameron.

He is a young key position player, he will take time, there's no need for a weekly review.

Yes Cameron also had only 4 disposals in the first half, going at 75% efficiency to go with the 2 goals he kicked from those 4 disposals - Ratugolea's 4 disposals were at 50% efficiency with no score involvements

As for a weekly review, isn't that what we do with all players - during the game, as part of the review/autopsy thread and then in the preview thread?

That's what we do as fans is review the team as a whole and then the individual players, that in turn sees suggested changes, who we want in the team or omitted etc

 

[Drunkcat]

Anyone know what happen to him yet?

 

[Mad_Hatter]

I think he's gone backwards so far this year, after going backwards last season aswell.
I simply don't have a position for him in the 22, and beyond next year on the list.

 

[BORIS332]

Yes Cameron also had only 4 disposals in the first half, going at 75% efficiency to go with the 2 goals he kicked from those 4 disposals - Ratugolea's 4 disposals were at 50% efficiency with no score involvements

As for a weekly review, isn't that what we do with all players - during the game, as part of the review/autopsy thread and then in the preview thread?

That's what we do as fans is review the team as a whole and then the individual players, that in turn sees suggested changes, who we want in the team or omitted etc

Clearly the point I was making wasn't to compare who was better re Esava and Cameron. It was to illustrate that yes, our 23 year old developing KPF was quiet, but so was one of the best KPFs in the game. What they did with their disposals is completely irrelevant, they both struggled to get the ball.

Your second point is a massive reach and you know it. No other player on our list receives as much scrutiny as Esava.

 

[DanA]

With Hawkins rucking forward and Blicavs in defense I’m not sure we need a dedicated 2nd ruck. But he is the best option we have if we want to play with one and clearly Scott does.

 

[fpm84]

I'm a Sav fan and will defend him saying he is asked to play a selfless role for the team, he's never going to kick bags of goals when almost all of our forward entries are directed to Hawkins and Cameron, and it seems he is often directed to simply 'make a contest' and draw a tall defender. In the ruck, I like his aggression and second efforts.

However it's undeniable that he has started the season poorly, fumbling the ball too much and dropping marks often against smaller opponents.

I don't know how much him being subbed off contributed to the momentum shift on Saturday night but from 3/4 time onwards, Stanley got on top of Grundy, our ball movement was quick and direct and Hawkins and Cameron had more space inside 50 than they'd had all night.

Even if he's fit to play on Friday I think we should sit him out and have a look at a different structure. The problem is that I don't think we can afford to play SDK forward again given Brisbane have a few tall forwards, and the three tall forward structure is clearly favoured by our coaches.

 

[cats_09]

Clearly the point I was making wasn't to compare who was better re Esava and Cameron. It was to illustrate that yes, our 23 year old developing KPF was quiet, but so was one of the best KPFs in the game. What they did with their disposals is completely irrelevant, they both struggled to get the ball.

Your second point is a massive reach and you know it. No other player on our list receives as much scrutiny as Esava.

Camerons was impacting the match in the first half - you may deem 4 disposals as quiet, but Cameron showed how to have an impact from limited opportunities

As for your second point - that's surely said as a laugh and in jest

Have a look at how much scrutiny the likes of Higgins, Dahlhaus, Stanley, Rohan, Kolodjashnij etc receive every week, regardless if they're playing or how well they're performing - it's not even close. Even the captain was the most scrutinized player for the match on Saturday night & coping shit for things he didn't do

Ratugolea turns 24 in July, he has 58 senior games under his belt & it's his 6th season on the list - he's not some kid in their first or second year, but rather a player who rightly has a level of expectation being placed upon them to take the next steps in their career. And rather then seeing even small incremental increases, we're basically seeing regression

In 2 of his 3 games this year he has finished with 4 disposals & in both games he collected all 4 disposals in the first half. In just 2 of his 15 games last season did he have 4 or less disposals, and he was actually double digit disposals in 4 of his first 5 games last season

From his 8 games in his debut season, the only match with 4 disposals or less was the one in which he broke his leg.

In 2019 he played 20 games & only once had 4 disposals or less; and an effort he repeated in 2021 when it was 1 game from his 12

 

[standupand]

Camerons was impacting the match in the first half - you may deem 4 disposals as quiet, but Cameron showed how to have an impact from limited opportunities

Like waiting in the goal square for Hawkins to unselfishly give one off?

 

[BORIS332]

Camerons was impacting the match in the first half - you may deem 4 disposals as quiet, but Cameron showed how to have an impact from limited opportunities

As for your second point - that's surely said as a laugh and in jest

Have a look at how much scrutiny the likes of Higgins, Dahlhaus, Stanley, Rohan, Kolodjashnij etc receive every week, regardless if they're playing or how well they're performing - it's not even close. Even the captain was the most scrutinized player for the match on Saturday night & coping shit for things he didn't do

Ratugolea turns 24 in July, he has 58 senior games under his belt & it's his 6th season on the list - he's not some kid in their first or second year, but rather a player who rightly has a level of expectation being placed upon them to take the next steps in their career. And rather then seeing even small incremental increases, we're basically seeing regression

In 2 of his 3 games this year he has finished with 4 disposals & in both games he collected all 4 disposals in the first half. In just 2 of his 15 games last season did he have 4 or less disposals, and he was actually double digit disposals in 4 of his first 5 games last season

From his 8 games in his debut season, the only match with 4 disposals or less was the one in which he broke his leg.

In 2019 he played 20 games & only once had 4 disposals or less; and an effort he repeated in 2021 when it was 1 game from his 12

Irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant. Strawman argument after strawman argument. The original point, before you derailed everything, is that Esava is a young, developing KPF. He is going to be inconsistent week-to-week.

If the echo chamber here was in charge we would have delisted Hawkins, C.Guthrie, Blicavs, Parfitt, Bews and Henry by now. Luckily our list managers aren't so short-sighted.

 

[you pick one]

Irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant. Strawman argument after strawman argument. The original point, before you derailed everything, is that Esava is a young, developing KPF. He is going to be inconsistent week-to-week.

If the echo chamber here was in charge we would have delisted Hawkins, C.Guthrie, Blicavs, Parfitt, Bews and Henry by now. Luckily our list managers aren't so short-sighted.

I for one would welcome some inconsistency in Savs game right now he's week to week consistently underwhelming.

 

[Farmer2Goggin]

I for one would welcome some inconsistency in Savs game right now he's week to week consistently underwhelming.

It should not go unnoticed that a 3 gamer had 3 critical score involvements in Sav's position in the last 1/4 - a kick to the goal square and 2 fantastic handballs - I wonder if those happen with Sav in the frame?
Sav needs to show more , much more actually. A mark on the wing that fell into his hands doesn't cut it.
In terms of opportunity cost I'd like to see Neale in the Sav role , perfect chance this week as he played well in the 2's.
IMHO Neale is a special talent who will show a bit in the 1's on the back of better structure and execution.
I was pissed off we lost Kreuger - I'll be livid if Neale heads back to the West ................

 

[cats_09]

Irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant. Strawman argument after strawman argument. The original point, before you derailed everything, is that Esava is a young, developing KPF. He is going to be inconsistent week-to-week.

If the echo chamber here was in charge we would have delisted Hawkins, C.Guthrie, Blicavs, Parfitt, Bews and Henry by now. Luckily our list managers aren't so short-sighted.

Again, Ratugolea turns 24 in July, he has 58 senior games under his belt & it's his 6th season on the list - he's not some kid in their first or second year with a handful of games under their belt who's just now stepping up to play with the big boys

So, at what stage will be stop being a young, developing KP(?) player, where excuses are made for him being inconsistent? Cause really, one could argue he's rather consistent in terms of being underwhelming and that he's development stalled

Surely serious consideration needs to be given to sending him back to the VFL, giving him an extended run at that level with a focus on a specific role, and bringing confidence to his game