Essendon 2011

[Crow-mo]

Contested possesions he is top 4 in the compeition and 4th in 1st possesions per game. He is pretty much on par with Judd in all those stats but has a better disposal efficiency than him.

Chris Judd 2010 kicks 54% of the time
Jobe Watson 2010 kicks 36% of the time

so lets not pretend here, that they are comparable

in the 2010 champion data prospectus he is listed as only averaging 11 metres per possession, one of the lowest in the top 50 possession winners.

 

[Wernumberone]

this is a silly argument. with Watson's Kick:handball ratio he is likely to appear to make less errors than others, but will fall down in yards per possession. it is also a major issue with any argument about how damaging he is.

by all means make the argument about how skilled he is, or how damaging he is, but don't use error rates when discussing a player who avoids using his foot so comparatively little.

I remember someone telling me a year or two back how much Masten from WC had improved his kicking, but actually he was told to limit his options to short distances by foot. Brad Symes from my club is the same, has quite good DE% but only because he is under instruction to not bomb it.

You just can't leave well enough alone can you troll?

Watson wins the ball in tightest and most contested area of the game. The very fact that he has such a low error rate shows plenty.

Most players that play in this position have average disposal % because they are under soo much pressure all the time and a lot of them that actually kick the ball from stoppages it is more of a just bang it forward.

Watson baulks and finds room to shoot out handballs, even through opposition players legs and still finds his target.

You make out like he has a 4-1 handball ratio or something.

He had 209 kicks and 363 handballs last year so let's at least stick to reality rather than your troll mentality.

Watson isn't a damaging kick, never has been and never will be but he has learnt his limitations and now has improved his kicking out of sight by weighting the ball.

The fact of the matter is he is in the very very top echelon of clearance players in the league and made the AA squad last year and barring injury could quite well make the side this year.

 

[Wernumberone]

Chris Judd 2010 kicks 54% of the time
Jobe Watson 2010 kicks 36% of the time

so lets not pretend here, that they are comparable

in the 2010 champion data prospectus he is listed as only averaging 11 metres per possession, one of the lowest in the top 50 possession winners.

Link me to those stats.

I call bullshit

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-essendon-bombers--jobe-watson

His job isn't to gain meters it's to give it to the guys who can do that.

 

[Big Blow Hard]

Chris Judd 2010 kicks 54% of the time
Jobe Watson 2010 kicks 36% of the time

so lets not pretend here, that they are comparable

in the 2010 champion data prospectus he is listed as only averaging 11 metres per possession, one of the lowest in the top 50 possession winners.

Jobe Watson first possesion to goal rate was 2nd in the league behind only Matthew Priddis at one stage last year. Now while neither have a reputation as the best midfielders, that alone shows their effectiveness. I don't call Jobe elite, but very close. If he were at Collingwood, he would sufficielntly if not better, replace Luke Balls role.

 

[Crow-mo]

You just can't leave well enough alone can you troll?

do you call everyone smarter than you a troll? maybe you just can't understand, or don't like hearing what is being said to you? just a thought.

Watson wins the ball in tightest and most contested area of the game. The very fact that he has such a low error rate shows plenty.

you've made 2 unrelated statements here, and tried to draw an imaginary relationship between the 2 of them.

he is a very good stoppage player, who only uses his hands thus you expect a low hurt rate and high DE%.

though I am not sure why I am having to teach you such basic things, don't your teachers get paid for that?

Most players that play in this position have average disposal % because they are under soo much pressure all the time and a lot of them that actually kick the ball from stoppages it is more of a just bang it forward.

11 metres per disposal champ.

Watson baulks and finds room to shoot out handballs, even through opposition players legs and still finds his target.

I heard Diesel Williams has a picture of him on his wall at home.

You make out like he has a 4-1 handball ratio or something.

He had 209 kicks and 363 handballs last year (less than 2-1) so let's at least stick to reality rather than your troll mentality.

I didn't make out anything, I gave the EXACT numbers.
lol - you're the best, thanks

Watson isn't a damaging kick, never has been and never will be but he has learnt his limitations and now has improved his kicking out of sight by weighting the ball.

Darren Jarman weighted the ball, Jobe Watson chips sideways.

The fact of the matter is he is in the very very top echelon of clearance players in the league and made the AA squad last year and barring injury could quite well make the side this year.

making the AA squad, and not the team, doesn't make him a champion. it makes him your best player. for whatever that's worth.

 

[SirJimi05]

this is a silly argument. with Watson's Kick:handball ratio he is likely to appear to make less errors than others, but will fall down in yards per possession. it is also a major issue with any argument about how damaging he is.

Watson 2010 - 17 handballs per game
Ablett 2010 - 17.4 handballs per game

Almost identicle disposal efficiency and I don't see Watson giving off the dinky 1 metre give and go handballs.

Disagree strongly with your assumption that yards per possesion is a true indicator of how damaging a player is. Scoring involvement % is far more important, especially for an insidide ball winner.

 

[Crow-mo]

Jobe Watson first possesion to goal rate was 2nd in the league behind only Matthew Priddis at one stage last year. Now while neither have a reputation as the best midfielders, that alone shows their effectiveness. I don't call Jobe elite, but very close. If he were at Collingwood, he would sufficielntly if not better, replace Luke Balls role.

Luke Ball is not elite (or near).

I think you have pegged him very well, and I don't argue at all with your characterisation.

NB. priddis played for the bottom team, and you were 4th bottom. what does that tell you grasshopper

 

[MightyTiger]

Link me to those stats.

I call bullshit

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-essendon-bombers--jobe-watson

His job isn't to gain meters it's to give it to the guys who can do that.

Isn't that the whole point of the debate? No one here has questioned his ability at stoppages, it's the fact that he needs to feed the ball out to better users of the ball for it to be damaging.

I think everyone would agree that if Watson is being used as a link man or third in line for a possession then that would be a win for the opposition as his foot skills aren't as damaging as other players, but if Watson is the first person in the chain of possessions then that is a win for Essendon as the better users of the ball have time and space to use it.

Every team has these types of players so it isn't a slight on Watson.

A few names off the top of my head and I have S Tuck, B Sewell, McLean, N Jones, S Thompson, Boyd these types of players who give there team first use of the pill by being excellent clearance players but when used by foot can be damaging for there own team.

 

[Wernumberone]

do you call everyone smarter than you a troll? maybe you just can't understand, or don't like hearing what is being said to you? just a thought.

No i don't hence why i called you what you are, a troll.

I'm not going to discuss this with you anymore and you are the first on my ignore after this post.

You ignore facts then just sprout BS. I provided facts to my post to prove he doesn't handball all that much, called your stats bullshit and asked you to back them up and what do you do...ignore it because of course it is just bullshit.

Your opinion is irrelevant and mostly wrong and each post proves it beyond doubt.

Bye troll....

 

[Crow-mo]

Watson 2010 - 17 handballs per game
Ablett 2010 - 17.4 handballs per game

but dishonest isn't it, trying to dispell a low kick/handball ratio, by presenting only handball #'s isn't it?

dishonest, and transparent.

Ablett 14 kicks per game
Watson 9.9 kicks per game.

and if you are seriously talking effectiveness and damage, shall we look at goals

Almost identicle disposal efficiency and I don't see Watson giving off the dinky 1 metre give and go handballs.

I do, and so does everyone else who is not an essendon homer.

Disagree strongly with your assumption that yards per possesion is a true indicator of how damaging a player is. Scoring involvement % is far more important, especially for an insidide ball winner.

its not my assumption, so your opinion doesn't matter. Its champion data who have established how important it is, and the year in year out king is Ryan Griffen.

next you'll be telling me how hit out to advantage isn't a good measure for a ruckman.

but enough of this, why don't you list the midfielders you think are better than Jobe Watson. should be good for a laugh.

 

[Crow-mo]

No i don't hence why i called you what you are, a troll.

I'm not going to discuss this with you anymore and you are the first on my ignore after this post.

You ignore facts then just sprout BS. I provided facts to my post to prove he doesn't handball all that much, called your stats bullshit and asked you to back them up and what do you do...ignore it because of course it is just bullshit.

Your opinion is irrelevant and mostly wrong and each post proves it beyond doubt.

Bye troll....

lol. sure thing einstein.

door's to your left.

 

[Big Blow Hard]

Luke Ball is not elite (or near).

I think you have pegged him very well, and I don't argue at all with your characterisation.

NB. priddis played for the bottom team, and you were 4th bottom. what does that tell you grasshopper

It tells me they were both exceptional given the quality of the players around them, and given better supporting cast, they would actually both be given a hell of a lot more credit for how good they are as players.
We will see how good Ablett really is when he is surrounded by less than goos teammates this year. The very reason why I rate Judd the best player in the comp by a long way.

And if you ca poin out where I said Luke Ball was elite, I will thank you.

 

[SirJimi05]

well I don't think that's true, it's not about number of clearances, it's about effect on the game, this is where you use your eyes...oh yes, going to be hard for some.


Watson is a piece of a puzzle, he needs people to take the ball from him, and they need him to take it off. Team sport, so he fits a role. Wouldn't say he was football skillful with his disposal at the elite level, especially kicking, hands OK to good, but he knows how to read it from a stop position. Motion on the other hand he tends to get found out.

You obviously don't use your eyes much do you, mate. Hands Ok to good?

11 metres per disposal champ.

I heard Diesel Williams has a picture of him on his wall at home.

Don't know about the pictures but Diesel is on record as saying that Watson is as good as, if not the best, inside midfielder in the competition.

Also, only condescending w***ers say "champ".

 

[Crow-mo]

Link me to those stats.

I call bullshit

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-essendon-bombers--jobe-watson

His job isn't to gain meters it's to give it to the guys who can do that.

you call bullshit do you cletus? (this is too good)

I used this link: http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/players/J/Jobe_Watson.html#20105

and do you know what? it shows the SAME numbers as the link you used.

Footywire, shows 209 Kicks from a total of 572 possessions. exactly the same #'s as my link.

what is 209/572? hmmm? not enough fingers and toes to work it out huh?

I mean FFS, you're comedy stupid.

 

[Crow-mo]

It tells me they were both exceptional given the quality of the players around them, and given better supporting cast, they would actually both be given a hell of a lot more credit for how good they are as players.
We will see how good Ablett really is when he is surrounded by less than goos teammates this year. The very reason why I rate Judd the best player in the comp by a long way.

you know what, I tend to agree with you about Ablett and to a lesser extent
Judd. and Priddis is an awful player.

And if you ca poin out where I said Luke Ball was elite, I will thank you.

well if you want to call Watson near Elite, and say he is just like Luke Ball...

 

[Crow-mo]

Don't know about the pictures but Diesel is on record as saying that Watson is as good as, if not the best, inside midfielder in the competition.

Link?

Also, only condescending w***ers say "champ".

sure thing champ, now about that list?

 

[SirJimi05]

I do, and so does everyone else who is not an essendon homer.

Sorry but you are making shit up. Show me footage of this happening just once this season. For a guy that is so handball happy you should be able to show me atleast one example.

its not my assumption, so your opinion doesn't matter. Its champion data who have established how important it is, and the year in year out king is Ryan Griffen.

Really coudn't give a rats arse. Chris Judd is a more damaging player than Griffen. Is he behind Griffen is this important stat of yours?

but enough of this, why don't you list the midfielders you think are better than Jobe Watson. should be good for a laugh.

I'm not going to compare him with outside players but in terms of inside players I would rank Judd ahead of him and then Mitchell, Boyd and Watson in no particular order.

Actually, Pendles and Ablett are both great inside mids (even though they both play outside also) so they go above him also.

 

[Jars458]

Ablett is a once in a generation player and as a footballer way ahead of Judd. He wasn't made to look good by those arounnd him. Watch this year and see.

 

[Crow-mo]

I'm not going to compare him with outside players but in terms of inside players I would rank Judd ahead of him and then Mitchell, Boyd and Watson in no particular order.

Actually, Pendles and Ablett are both great inside mids (even though they both play outside also) so they go above him also.

you do realise inside midfielder isn't a position it's a function, an attribute.

there is no reason not to compare him with everyone else, especially if you want to tell everyone how great you think he is.

 

[Big Blow Hard]

you know what, I tend to agree with you about Ablett and to a lesser extent
Judd. and Priddis is an awful player.




well if you want to call Watson near Elite, and say he is just like Luke Ball...

Priddis is better than given credit for. If Priddis was awful, he would not be playing, that simple. Both of these guys would be snapped up by the top sides given their availability. You say Priddis is awful, I say he gives it a damn good crack in a poor side. Put Priddis at say, the Dogs, he would still be in the side, and I'm tipping, more rated.

But thats digressing. Elite is thrown abot pretty carelessly at the best of times, and despite this knock on his handball to kick ratio, there is no basis for you to say he is not a very good AFL footballer. You raised ladder position and team performance as a factor, so I guess Tony Lockett loses points as a FF because his teams weren't great? And like it or not, Luke Ball was a fantastic player.

 

[SirJimi05]

Link?

Why? Do you find it hard to believe that one of the greatest inside midfielders the game has ever seen would rate Watson so highly?

 

[Big Blow Hard]

Ablett is a once in a generation player and as a footballer way ahead of Judd. He wasn't made to look good by those arounnd him. Watch this year and see.

Time will tell on that. If he shows as much this year, I will happily agree with you. Until then....

 

[Crow-mo]

Why? Do you find it hard to believe that one of the greatest inside midfielders the game has ever seen would rate Watson so highly?

its you I don't trust.

 

[MARC_]

Diesel said it after the saints game last year if i remember right.

 

[Crow-mo]

[/B]
Priddis is better than given credit for. If Priddis was awful, he would not be playing, that simple. Both of these guys would be snapped up by the top sides given their availability. You say Priddis is awful, I say he gives it a damn good crack in a poor side. Put Priddis at say, the Dogs, he would still be in the side, and I'm tipping, more rated.

the problem with this thinking, is you only have to venture onto the WCE board to see how many people disagree with you on Priddis.

its not just me, in fact the person who is on his own here I suggest is you.

But thats digressing. Elite is thrown abot pretty carelessly at the best of times, and despite this knock on his handball to kick ratio, there is no basis for you to say he is not a very good AFL footballer.

don't put words in my mouth, he is a good player - and I have said that repeatedly. he is very good in a limited skill set.

however, he is not what some of your fanboi's would make him out to be.

I am rejecting the elite, one the comp's best players claim, not that he isn't a good player. he is. that he is your best midfielder reflects your prospects accurately.

You raised ladder position and team performance as a factor, so I guess Tony Lockett loses points as a FF because his teams weren't great?

you're not comparing Jobe Watson to Tony Lockett are you? next you'll be comparing him to his dad.

And like it or not, Luke Ball was a fantastic player.

you really got to stop making things up and pretending people said things they didn't.

Luke Ball was elite with St Kilda, he is not, with Collingwood. Injury has seen to that. he is a guy who couldn't afford to lose that half yard of pace, or that 10 metres on his kick. he remains a good player in his current form.