Essendon 29k?

[Chaz Pendlebury]

Don't give me the stupid wetaher excuse. For every perosn that doesn't go to the MCG because of the weather, there are others that DO go to the MCG, because of the extra MCC and AFL members that can attend MCG games.

Any apples vs apples comparison put both clubs at the same crowd drawing level. Every year you have mentioned is post 2000, which is when Essendon moved to the Dome.

Essendon and Collingwood's crowd drawing capacity against interstate teams is proved to be the same. The crowd drawing capacity in high-performance years is the same (TAKING INTO ACCOUNT ESSENDON PLAY AT THE DOME) and the Bombers 1998 and 1999 figures reflect this, when they were an MCG tenant.

So, it's hard to compare Essendon's finals years (2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004) because Essendon was a Dome tenant in this time.

Okay, so lets do an apples vs apples comparison, of both clubs bad years, which are almost identical at around a 35% win-loss record each.


ESSENDON'S 5 YEARS OF 2005, 06, 07, 08, 09
2005: 979,102
2006: 935,522
2007: 1,088,652
2008: 1,044,123
2009: 1,089,224

Average crowd over those 110 games of 46,696. Lost more games than they won every year. Total win-loss record over those 5 years 36.0%



COLLINGWOOD'S 6 YEARS OF 1995, 96, 97, 98, 99, 00
1995: 1,033,444
1996: 924,919
1997: 1,102,961
1998: 1,041,431
1999: 886,750
2000: 951,346

Average crowd over those 132 games of 45,006. Lost more games than they won every year. Total win-loss record over those 6 years 34.8%


See, what I mean? If you compare apples with apples they are both about the same.

Even looking at the last couple of years where Collingwood hit the all-time record (1,189,932 in 2009, 1,247,391 in 2008 and 1,226,604 in 2007) in the years where you were "around" that Preliminary Final mark. What do you think Essendon would have done in 2000 and 2001 had they been primarily an MCG tenant!!!!

In those years the Bombers had 1,107,345 in 2000 and 1,124,805 in 2001!! Playing at the Dome!

There were 4-5 Dome games every year in those two years that got high 40,000's that would have drawn 60 and 70,000 at the MCG. A couple stand out, particularly the Hawthorn game in 2001 that would have got 75,000 if it was at the MCG and the Geelong game in 2000 that would have got 75,000.

But even games against Sydeny and teams like that would get 60,000. Back in 1996 and 1998, we played two games against Sydney at the MCG which got 69,000 and 62,000. I remember when we stole a game late in 2001 at the Dome with a late Alessio goal in front of a typical mid to high 40,000's crowd thinking "this is one of those games that would have got around 60,000 at the MCG, with more MCC members, more AFL members and more theatre goers."

There were HEAPS of those types of games in 2000 and 2001 against mid-range teams like the Bulldogs, Hawks, Swans etc that got 45,000+ that would have easily drawn 60,000 or more at the MCG. In 1998, we drew 68,000 versus the Dogs in round 21.

In 2000, that same round 21 match versus the Bulldogs with them playing for a finals berth and Essendon for an unbeaten season drew a virtual sell-out at the Dome. No doubt it would have been 65,000-70,000 at the MCG, with MCC and AFL members able to just rock up. As well as other theatre goers.

Essendon would have drawn 1.2 million easily in 2000 and 2001 if we were an MCG tenant. Just about every Dome game versus a Victorian opponent or the Swans in those two years would have been 60,000-plus at the MCG.

Weather excuse? You're the one making excuses dude. I was just demonstrating that the dome does not even come close to explaining the gaping distance between Essnedon's and Collingwood's attendances.

You are the one making excuses about the dome dragging you crowd figures down. Once again you are the embodiment of hypocrisy. All evidence suggests the docklands will draw a higher crowd on a wet day / night than at the G. The 04/05 games of ours you showed would seem to strongly support that. Our dome crowds were much higher than our MCG crowds against port/freo/west coast.

How is comparing Collingwood in the late 90's and essendon in the late 00's comparing apples with apples?

Again I refer you back to my previous post which compared crowds over the last decade on a year to year basis, noting performance.

Every year this decade (and the you could go back 30 years if you like) is consistent with Collingwood drawing significantly more people to its games than essendon.

It is blatantly obvious

Essednon win 4 more games and average a few hundred more
Essendon win 3 games more and Collingwood average 1600 more
Same number of wins Collingwood average 4,900 more
2 or 3 more wins Collingwoood average 1,500 to 5,000 more
4 plus wins we average 5 to 10,000 more

The pattern is so straight forward you could give it to some primary school kids to solve. Collingwood have a significantly higher draw power and every year individually this last decade supports that

essendon and carlton have around the same support

 

[Dan26]

Weather excuse? You're the one making excuses dude.

LOL. Since when? I just state the facts. YOU were the one whingeing that playing at the MCG was the reason for the Pies getting a poor crowd of 26,000 versus Fremantle.

I was just demonstrating that the dome does not even come close to explaining the gaping distance between Essendon's and Collingwood's attendances.

There is no gaping distance at all in any apples vs apples comaprison.

When both clubs lose more than they win, Essendon actually draw MORE than Collingwood? Since when is that a "gaping distance"

The only reason Collingwood's crowds are significantly bigger over the last couple of years is because:

a.) You have been winning more games than you've lost in 2006-7-8-9-10. Essendon have lost more than they have won over those same 5 years.

b.) You use the MCG, Essendon use the Dome.

And whilst I admit the Dome doesn't affect attendances that much when Essendon are struggling it DOES affect attendances when Essendon were a top side. In 2000 and 2001, virtually every game against a Victorian opponent or the Swans at the Dome (except St.Kilda in 2000, who were crap) would have been 60,000 plus.

You are comparing a currently very good Collingwood side using the MCG with a currently average Essendon side using the Dome. How is that "apples vs apples"????????????????????

Any apples vs apples comparison sees the two clubs equal.

Essendon's 1,124,805 in 2001 clearly would be up around the 1.2 million mark if they played their games at the MCG. Guess, where Collinwood rank now as a top side? Yep, about 1.2 million. Funny that. Apples vs apples, they are the same.

I've already showed you that Essendon's 5 years of 36% wins produced higher crowds than Collingwood's 6 years of 35% wins. Apples vs apples.

essendon and carlton have around the same support

That is such a ridiculously stupid and ill-infomed comment I don't know where to start.

I could start by the Roy Morgan Survey which Essendon led Collingwood every year until 2009. Carlton weren't even close to Essendon in any years. They've never been within 140,000 of Essendon although the Blues did get to within 85,000 of the Pies in the 2002 survey.

.................Essendon...........Carlton........................ ...Collingwood
2002...........862,000..............603,000........................ ........688,000
2003...........829,000..............582,000........................ ........693,000
2004...........796,000..............596,000....................... ........749,000
2005...........809,000..............531,000........................ ........776,000
2006...........798,000...............467,000....................... ........703,000
2007...........771,000...............515,000....................... .........688,000
2008...........722,000...............521,000...................... .........722,000
2009...........638,000...............493,000.................................731,000

http://www.roymorgan.com/news/press-releases/2009/906/

Carlton were never cose to Essendon or Collingwood in any of those years. Funny how, upon "winning" that survey, it becomes a definitive survey, but for the 7 years before that when Essendon "won" or joint won it, the survey was crap.

Collingwood highest ever recorded supporter base of 776,000 in 2005 was exceeded FIVE TIMES BY ESSENDON since the survey has been conducted!

As an "unofficial" survey how about we look at the Supercoach and Dreamteam entries for "club supported" of people playing those on-line games.

DREAMTEAM CLUB SUPPORTED 2010 (Vic clubs only)
1. Essendon 26,339
2. Collingwood 26,271
3. Carlton 22,290
4. Hawthorn 17,687
5. Richmond 15,115
6. Geelong 15,088
7. St.Kilda 13,146
8. Nth.Melb 10,549
9. W.Bulldogs 8,708
10. Melbourne 7,987

SUPERCOACH CLUB SUPPORTED 2010 (Vic clubs only)
1. Essendon 46,287
2. Collingwood 45,787
3. Carlton 35,281
4. Richmond 28,413
5. Hawthorn 27,338
6. Geelong 27,290
7. St.Kilda 19,808
8. Nth.Melb 16,170
9. W.Bulldogs 14,538
10. Melbourne 13,383

Essendon and Collingwood stand alone. On their own. Virtually equal. Carlton more supporters than Essendon? LOL. Yeah, and pigs might fly too. Carlton are a clear third.

As a side note, it really does show how far Richmond's support has fallen over the last 25 years. Geelong and Hawthorn have basically caught them in overall support. Those three clubs are all pretty equal now.

 

[dave10]

Right, Research, Big Picture

Essendon have never drawn more than Collingwood in any year, other than when they finished in the eight and Collingwood didn't

They closest, in terms of games won, that Collingwood have been behind Essendon and drew less was in 2004 (the last time Essendon outdrew the Pies) The Pies won 4 less games and had an average of 700 less.

In 2001, Collingwood had 6 less wins and averaged 1,900 less

In 2002, Collingwood had 0.5 more wins and average 4,900 more

In 2003, Collingwood had 2 more wins and average 4,900 more

In 2005, Collingwood had 3 less wins and averaged 1,600 more

In 2006, Collingwood had 11 more wins and averaged 10,400 more

In 2007, Collingwood had 3 more wins and averaged 6,300 more

In 2008, Collingwood had 4 more wins and averaged 9,200 more

In 2009, Collingwood had 4.5 more wins and averaged 4,900 more

In 2010, Collingwood has 4 more wins and is averaging 9,000 more

Carlton have averaged more than Essendon the last two years and are sure to do it again this year (by some margin)
So that is pretty damning evidence, comprehensive and not at all selective

And the Dome thing. Essendon would have, at best, had marginally more sell out matches than Collingwood over the decade that would have got more at the G.

It also is evident that games there below capacity in the middle of winter (particularly in when its raining) draw higher than the MCG. This is evidenced by the three lowest games in 04/05 that you posted just happened to be the 3 at the G. The dome games against the same teams all drew 7,500 plus more. And every other MCG tenant would vouch that the bad form plus wet wintery weather devastates crowd numbers

Chaz, I assume your assumption here is that Essendon will finish way below Carlton on the ladder otherwise this would not occur.

To Dans point, if Essendon are as successful as Collingwood (or Carlton) on the field they would be on a par with Collingwood in terms of attendances. The only other factor effecting Essendons crowds would then be the limited capacity of the Dome and selling out several games impacting its numbers.

Your stats above prove that when Essendon are successful on field like Collingwood they do draw on a similar level to the pies which I think is Dans point

On the Dome outdrawing the MCG, I dont think you have thought about the impact of several thousand MCC members attending the MCG for free and inflating crowds at this ground Vs the Dome. There would be at least 2-3,000 MCC members that would not consider going to the Dome which contradicts your view that the Dome attracts better crowds that the G.

With all Collingwoods success over recent years you seem to forget what it was like when Collingwood were very ordinary and the fans stayed away in droves as some stats in this post indicate. When Collingwood are terrible on field they dont go. For most Bomber fans now, we see little hope and have not realistically believed in making the finals since 2005. Its hard to get the bandwagoners to come to watch them week in week out. All in all, Essendons crowds are very strong under the circumstances.

 

[Dan26]

Your stats above prove that when Essendon are successful on field like Collingwood they do draw on a similar level to the pies which I think is Dans point.

The basic point which I spent a long time proving, is that apples vs apples the two clubs draw equally.

Put Essendon and Collingowod both with 16 wins 6 losses, playing 9 home games each at the MCG, they would both draw about 1.2 million over 22 games.

Look at the Supercoach and Dreamteam club supported..... they are dead set equal, the Bombers and Pies.

I know Bombers fans like to say they have the most fans and Collingwood fans likewise, but seriously it's as close to equal as it can get.

 

[dave10]

It is years since Essendon drew 40,000 V Port, Freo or Adelaide Dan. Not since the Sheedy glory days. Indeed its a while since they drew 30,000 VS Port.

It is inaccurate to say that something that hasn't happened at all in 7 or 8 years happens regularly. Essendon are a huge club with a superb drawing capacity but you don't regularly draw 40K plus V interstate opposition and haven't done so in years.

The years since Essendon drew 40,000 V Port or Freo reflect the 'years' since Essendon has been a realistic power in the comp on field. Ess did draw 49,000 V WCE in 2007 which does support Dans point. There were at least 40,000 Essendon fans their that night dont you think?

Gaelic, if Essendon was in the top 4 playing Freo at the Dome this Friday night, how many do you think would rock up? I say 40,000+ would be conservative.

 

[dave10]

LOL. Since when? I just state the facts. YOU were the one whingeing that playing at the MCG was the reason for the Pies getting a poor crowd of 26,000 versus Fremantle.



There is no gaping distance at all in any apples vs apples comaprison.

When both clubs lose more than they win, Essendon actually draw MORE than Collingwood? Since when is that a "gaping distance"

The only reason Collingwood's crowds are significantly bigger over the last couple of years is because:

a.) You have been winning more games than you've lost in 2006-7-8-9-10. Essendon have lost more than they have won over those same 5 years.

b.) You use the MCG, Essendon use the Dome.

And whilst I admit the Dome doesn't affect attendances that much when Essendon are struggling it DOES affect attendances when Essendon were a top side. In 2000 and 2001, virtually every game against a Victorian opponent or the Swans at the Dome (except St.Kilda in 2000, who were crap) would have been 60,000 plus.

You are comparing a currently very good Collingwood side using the MCG with a currently average Essendon side using the Dome. How is that "apples vs apples"????????????????????

Any apples vs apples comparison sees the two clubs equal.

Essendon's 1,124,805 in 2001 clearly would be up around the 1.2 million mark if they played their games at the MCG. Guess, where Collinwood rank now as a top side? Yep, about 1.2 million. Funny that. Apples vs apples, they are the same.

I've already showed you that Essendon's 5 years of 36% wins produced higher crowds than Collingwood's 6 years of 35% wins. Apples vs apples.



That is such a ridiculously stupid and ill-infomed comment I don't know where to start.

I could start by the Roy Morgan Survey which Essendon led Collingwood every year until 2009. Carlton weren't even close to Essendon in any years. They've never been within 140,000 of Essendon although the Blues did get to within 85,000 of the Pies in the 2002 survey.

.................Essendon...........Carlton........................ ...Collingwood
2002...........862,000..............603,000........................ ........688,000
2003...........829,000..............582,000........................ ........693,000
2004...........796,000..............596,000....................... ........749,000
2005...........809,000..............531,000........................ ........776,000
2006...........798,000...............467,000....................... ........703,000
2007...........771,000...............515,000....................... .........688,000
2008...........722,000...............521,000...................... .........722,000
2009...........638,000...............493,000.................................731,000

http://www.roymorgan.com/news/press-releases/2009/906/

Carlton were never cose to Essendon or Collingwood in any of those years. Funny how, upon "winning" that survey, it becomes a definitive survey, but for the 7 years before that when Essendon "won" or joint won it, the survey was crap.

Collingwood highest ever recorded supporter base of 776,000 in 2005 was exceeded FIVE TIMES BY ESSENDON since the survey has been conducted!

As an "unofficial" survey how about we look at the Supercoach and Dreamteam entries for "club supported" of people playing those on-line games.

DREAMTEAM CLUB SUPPORTED 2010 (Vic clubs only)
1. Essendon 26,339
2. Collingwood 26,271
3. Carlton 22,290
4. Hawthorn 17,687
5. Richmond 15,115
6. Geelong 15,088
7. St.Kilda 13,146
8. Nth.Melb 10,549
9. W.Bulldogs 8,708
10. Melbourne 7,987

SUPERCOACH CLUB SUPPORTED 2010 (Vic clubs only)
1. Essendon 46,287
2. Collingwood 45,787
3. Carlton 35,281
4. Richmond 28,413
5. Hawthorn 27,338
6. Geelong 27,290
7. St.Kilda 19,808
8. Nth.Melb 16,170
9. W.Bulldogs 14,538
10. Melbourne 13,383

Essendon and Collingwood stand alone. On their own. Virtually equal. Carlton more supporters than Essendon? LOL. Yeah, and pigs might fly too. Carlton are a clear third.

As a side note, it really does show how far Richmond's support has fallen over the last 25 years. Geelong and Hawthorn have basically caught them in overall support. Those three clubs are all pretty equal now.

I would argue that these survey results are far stronger a guide to club support than any other survey conducted given they count only devoted footy fans and there is such a large pool surveyed. I challenge anyone to dismiss these stats at their peril. They are as strong a guide as you can get.

 

[Brisbane Broncos]

Essendon fans are delusional and are only kidding themselves.

Spin it however you like but you ain't fooling anyone.

Everyone knows that Collingwood has the strongest crowd pulling power in Victoria.

 

[dave10]

Essendon fans are delusional and are only kidding themselves.

Spin it however you like but you ain't fooling anyone.

Everyone knows that Collingwood has the strongest crowd pulling power in Victoria.

Or do they? Maybe they do.

 

[Dan26]

Essendon fans are delusional and are only kidding themselves.

Spin it however you like but you ain't fooling anyone.

Everyone knows that Collingwood has the strongest crowd pulling power in Victoria.

There is no difference in drawing power between the two clubs on any apples vs apples comparison - and the figures prove it.

When both clubs are struggling, their home crowds agaisnt Port/Freo/WCE/Sdel are the same.

When both clubs are travelling well, their crowds are the same (Ess would have draw 1.2 million in 2000 and 2001 if they played primarily as an MCG tenant)

The figures prove it.

I knows its a "culturally accepted" thing to be told that Collingwood have the most fans, and you don't question something that has been culturally taught to you, even if it's wrong.

But as the Dreamteam and Supercoach entires show (and the Morgan survey over nearly TEN years) there is simply no discernible difference in supporter base between Essendon and Collingwood.

You can't just post crap like, "Essendon fans are delusional and are only kidding themselves." without any evidence, just because you yourself have been cultuarlly taught that Collingwood have the most fans when another club has the same number.

DREAMTEAM CLUB SUPPORTED 2010 (Vic clubs only)
1. Essendon 26,339
2. Collingwood 26,271
3. Carlton 22,290
4. Hawthorn 17,687
5. Richmond 15,115
6. Geelong 15,088
7. St.Kilda 13,146
8. Nth.Melb 10,549
9. W.Bulldogs 8,708
10. Melbourne 7,987

SUPERCOACH CLUB SUPPORTED 2010 (Vic clubs only)
1. Essendon 46,287
2. Collingwood 45,787
3. Carlton 35,281
4. Richmond 28,413
5. Hawthorn 27,338
6. Geelong 27,290
7. St.Kilda 19,808
8. Nth.Melb 16,170
9. W.Bulldogs 14,538
10. Melbourne 13,383

 

[Chaz Pendlebury]

LOL. Since when? I just state the facts. YOU were the one whingeing that playing at the MCG was the reason for the Pies getting a poor crowd of 26,000 versus Fremantle.



There is no gaping distance at all in any apples vs apples comaprison.

When both clubs lose more than they win, Essendon actually draw MORE than Collingwood? Since when is that a "gaping distance"

The only reason Collingwood's crowds are significantly bigger over the last couple of years is because:

a.) You have been winning more games than you've lost in 2006-7-8-9-10. Essendon have lost more than they have won over those same 5 years.

b.) You use the MCG, Essendon use the Dome.

And whilst I admit the Dome doesn't affect attendances that much when Essendon are struggling it DOES affect attendances when Essendon were a top side. In 2000 and 2001, virtually every game against a Victorian opponent or the Swans at the Dome (except St.Kilda in 2000, who were crap) would have been 60,000 plus.

You are comparing a currently very good Collingwood side using the MCG with a currently average Essendon side using the Dome. How is that "apples vs apples"????????????????????

Any apples vs apples comparison sees the two clubs equal.

Essendon's 1,124,805 in 2001 clearly would be up around the 1.2 million mark if they played their games at the MCG. Guess, where Collinwood rank now as a top side? Yep, about 1.2 million. Funny that. Apples vs apples, they are the same.

I've already showed you that Essendon's 5 years of 36% wins produced higher crowds than Collingwood's 6 years of 35% wins. Apples vs apples.



That is such a ridiculously stupid and ill-infomed comment I don't know where to start.

I could start by the Roy Morgan Survey which Essendon led Collingwood every year until 2009. Carlton weren't even close to Essendon in any years. They've never been within 140,000 of Essendon although the Blues did get to within 85,000 of the Pies in the 2002 survey.

.................Essendon...........Carlton........................ ...Collingwood
2002...........862,000..............603,000........................ ........688,000
2003...........829,000..............582,000........................ ........693,000
2004...........796,000..............596,000....................... ........749,000
2005...........809,000..............531,000........................ ........776,000
2006...........798,000...............467,000....................... ........703,000
2007...........771,000...............515,000....................... .........688,000
2008...........722,000...............521,000...................... .........722,000
2009...........638,000...............493,000.................................731,000

http://www.roymorgan.com/news/press-releases/2009/906/

Carlton were never cose to Essendon or Collingwood in any of those years. Funny how, upon "winning" that survey, it becomes a definitive survey, but for the 7 years before that when Essendon "won" or joint won it, the survey was crap.

Collingwood highest ever recorded supporter base of 776,000 in 2005 was exceeded FIVE TIMES BY ESSENDON since the survey has been conducted!

As an "unofficial" survey how about we look at the Supercoach and Dreamteam entries for "club supported" of people playing those on-line games.

DREAMTEAM CLUB SUPPORTED 2010 (Vic clubs only)
1. Essendon 26,339
2. Collingwood 26,271
3. Carlton 22,290
4. Hawthorn 17,687
5. Richmond 15,115
6. Geelong 15,088
7. St.Kilda 13,146
8. Nth.Melb 10,549
9. W.Bulldogs 8,708
10. Melbourne 7,987

SUPERCOACH CLUB SUPPORTED 2010 (Vic clubs only)
1. Essendon 46,287
2. Collingwood 45,787
3. Carlton 35,281
4. Richmond 28,413
5. Hawthorn 27,338
6. Geelong 27,290
7. St.Kilda 19,808
8. Nth.Melb 16,170
9. W.Bulldogs 14,538
10. Melbourne 13,383

Essendon and Collingwood stand alone. On their own. Virtually equal. Carlton more supporters than Essendon? LOL. Yeah, and pigs might fly too. Carlton are a clear third.

As a side note, it really does show how far Richmond's support has fallen over the last 25 years. Geelong and Hawthorn have basically caught them in overall support. Those three clubs are all pretty equal now.

Dude, Collingwood, like for like pull about 15% more of its own fans to games than Essendon. Thats based on the last decade accounting for the difference in wins. There is not one year in history where Essendon drew a bigger average crowd and Collingwood finished within 4 wins. Anything within four wins or better and we are averaging in the thousands better. Every year is supportive of Collingwood unambiguously having a bigger draw power. Carlton drew more than essendon last two years with marginally better performances

You clearly have no idea what an apple is and therefore are completely unqualified to compare them.

And again with the stupid surveys, they mean nothing as evidenced by the fluctuations. If we win a flag in the next couple of years we will jump even higher again, but all that would mean is another 100,000 nuffs say they go for Collingwood but couldn't name 5 players. Essendon in 2002 had just had three seasons in a row where they lost a total of about 10 matches. They have apparently "lost" 25% of their supporter base in a 7 years. Of course that is ridiculous, you have largely just lost the nuffs. they are just hot air

I have never claimed the survey has any merit, and still don't now. It is just a marketing exercise to assist advertisers better target markets.

And again, the fantasy football stuff has no statistically validity. It represents nothing like a cross section.

In terms of draw power, everything is pointing to essendon equating to carlton. and keep in mind you are heading in opposite directions on field

 

[Dan26]

In terms of draw power, everything is pointing to essendon equating to carlton. and keep in mind you are heading in opposite directions on field

LOL, are you stupid or something? Do I really need to repeat everything I have said, just so your pea brain can process it?

Carlton weren't even close to Essendon in any year. They've never been within 140,000 of Essendon although the Blues did get to within 85,000 of the Pies in the 2002 survey.

.................Essendon...........Carlton................. ....... ...Collingwood
2002...........862,000..............603,000................. ....... ........688,000
2003...........829,000..............582,000................. ....... ........693,000
2004...........796,000..............596,000................. ...... ........749,000
2005...........809,000..............531,000................. ....... ........776,000
2006...........798,000...............467,000................ ....... ........703,000
2007...........771,000...............515,000................ ....... .........688,000
2008...........722,000...............521,000................ ...... .........722,000
2009...........638,000...............493,000................ .................731,000

http://www.roymorgan.com/news/press-releases/2009/906/



DREAMTEAM CLUB SUPPORTED 2010 (Vic clubs only)
1. Essendon 26,339
2. Collingwood 26,271
3. Carlton 22,290
4. Hawthorn 17,687
5. Richmond 15,115
6. Geelong 15,088
7. St.Kilda 13,146
8. Nth.Melb 10,549
9. W.Bulldogs 8,708
10. Melbourne 7,987

SUPERCOACH CLUB SUPPORTED 2010 (Vic clubs only)
1. Essendon 46,287
2. Collingwood 45,787
3. Carlton 35,281
4. Richmond 28,413
5. Hawthorn 27,338
6. Geelong 27,290
7. St.Kilda 19,808
8. Nth.Melb 16,170
9. W.Bulldogs 14,538
10. Melbourne 13,383

And yes those dreamteam and Supercoach numbers ARE broadly accurate guides of support. Look where Melbourne, and North Melbourne are. Down towards the bottom, as we all know where their support lies. Essendon, Collingwood, Carlton 1,2,3.

It's not an exact science but it's broadly accurate. Same with the Morgan survey which Essendon led or tied Collingwood in every single season except 2009.

You can't dismiss all that just "because"

You cna't ignore the crowd numbers when Ess and Coll are poor teams versu Freo/Port/WCE/Adel, as being the same just "because"

And you can't ignore the fact that both teams, if they played the majority of their home games at the MCG and were good teams would draw around 1.2 million each, just "because"

I sit here and prove to you, that Collingwood's drawing power (when a poor team) versus Port, Freo etc is the same as Essendon's and all you do is crap on with excuses about the MCG being bad for weather.

Get real!

I've done all the research as usual. I know my stuff. I've seen the survey results and I know how to make an apples vs apples comparison. You don't.

You, my friend are apples and oranges.

You know I'm right. Every stat I've posted in 100% true and correct. Prove me wrong.

Both teams have the same drawing power.

The survey results over 10 years prove it.
The dreamteam and Supercoach "clubs supported" prove it
The apples vs apples crowd comparisons prove it.

 

[Chaz Pendlebury]

I would argue that these survey results are far stronger a guide to club support than any other survey conducted given they count only devoted footy fans and there is such a large pool surveyed. I challenge anyone to dismiss these stats at their peril. They are as strong a guide as you can get.

nah dude, bums on seats and than eyes on sets are all that count

i don't do any fantasy football game and i'm a huge fan. a lot of people i know that do have a largely dispassionate relationship to football and the the dream team is there point of engagement. then of course there are significant demographic biases in who has a dt or sc team. you could also argue you are more likely to have one when your team is shyte!

certainly less valid than bums on seats of which carlton are essendons equals

 

[Dan26]

And again, the fantasy football stuff has no statistically validity. It represents nothing like a cross section.

The great irony is that the fantasy football "clubs supported" is NOT an official survey in any way, shape or form.

Yet, despite that, it is probably THE most accruare "sampling"
of football fans. And it's not even intended to be! It only includes genuine football fans, and it' "sample" is over 360,000 people. The 360,000 on Supercoach are footy fans. Oztam, for example uses only about 10,000 for the TV ratings.

Those fantasy footy games have reached such broad appeal too. Especially with the Herald-Sun promoting it, everyone seems to do it. Young, old, whoever. At my work, over half of the 16 people in our legaue are over 40.

It is an excellent and accruate gauge of support. It's not intended to be. But that's the irony. It is.

 

[Dan26]

certainly less valid than bums on seats of which carlton are essendons equals

Well, I guess that's your one and only argument (and only for the last two seasons) that you are clinging to and clinging to, without any respect or any acknowledgement for any of the arguments I have made.

To suggest Carlton and Essendon are equal in support suggests a total, lack of footy knowledge of the modern day AFL. It suggest a total ignorance of any survey and any historical crowd stats

Carlton have big support, yes, but the Pies/Dons, Dons/Pies are 1,2 and all the stats and apples vs apples crowd numbers suggest they have the same drawing power.

Essendon and Collingwood are the only two clubs who cna be at their worst and still bottom out at around 30,000 versus Port and Freo.

Carlton's "bottoming out crowd" is much lower than 30,000.

 

[Chaz Pendlebury]

haha your anger and frustration permeates through your posts rainman26

4 wins is the break even point for collingwood essendon crowds

or

about 4,000 higher averages to collingwood in an even season

demonstrated in an earlier post if any one wants to read. will save the good people of big footy spewing it at them again amongst incoherent emotional ranting

carlton have drawn more than essendon in 08/09/10

 

[Seb78]

Not sure if this has been covered in an existing thread...

The Essendon v Port game only drew 29k to a 50k seat stadium on a sunny Saturday afternoon.

Essendon are apparently one of the "BIG 4" Victorian clubs... not a NMFC, MFC or Western Bulldogs (with full respect guys).

Yet this game only draw just over 29,000 people. This is in no way an attack or a troll on Essendon at all... but perhaps people are too quick to bag Port crowd figures when we pull 20k-25k to a crap stadium against low drawing teams.

That is all.

28,999 were Essendon supporters..... Whats your point?

 

[Dan26]

nah dude, bums on seats and than eyes on sets are all that count

Eyes on TV sets?

Here are the average Melbourne TV audiences for all free-to-air games that Essendon, Collingwood and Carlton were in for 2009.

Essendon won 10 games, Carlton, 13 and Collingwood 15. Essendon had the highest average Melbourne audience.

ESSENDON
vs Port Adelaide 222,000
vs Carlton 423,000
vs Collingwood 664,000
vs Brisbane 354,000
vs Hawthorn 518,000
vs Richmond 411,000
vs Geelong 352,000
vs Melbourne 368,000
vs Carlton 505,000
vs Collingwood 531,000
vs Bulldogs 396,000
vs Richmond 314,000
vs Hawthorn 409,000

Average: 420,500



COLLINGWOOD
vs Melbourne 251,000
vs Geelong 486,000
vs Brisbane 527,000
vs Essendon 664,000
vs Nth.Melb 465,000
vs St.Kilda 530,000
vs Carlton 306,000
vs Melbourne 471,000
vs Sydney 515,000
vs Fremantle 218,000
vs Essendon 531,000
vs Bulldogs 462,000
vs Hawthorn 390,000
vs Carlton 497,000
vs Brisbane 370,000
vs Adelaide 299,000
vs Richmond 277,000
vs Sydney 264,000

Average: 417,000



Carlton
vs Richmond 709,000
vs Essendon 423,000
vs Bulldogs 357,000
vs Hawthorn 310,000
vs Fremantle 382,000
vs Collingwood 306,000
vs West Coast 389,000
vs Brisbane 433,000
vs St.Kilda 553,000
vs Essendon 505,000
vs Richmond 294,000
vs Collingwood 497,000
vs Nth Melb 387,000
vs Geelong 438,000
vs Port Adelaide 320,000
vs Melbourne 230,000

Average: 408,000

 

[gaelictiogar]

The years since Essendon drew 40,000 V Port or Freo reflect the 'years' since Essendon has been a realistic power in the comp on field. Ess did draw 49,000 V WCE in 2007 which does support Dans point. There were at least 40,000 Essendon fans their that night dont you think?

Gaelic, if Essendon was in the top 4 playing Freo at the Dome this Friday night, how many do you think would rock up? I say 40,000+ would be conservative.

I made a very simple and wholly accurate response to Dan's wholly inaccurate and misleading comment that Essendon "regularly" draw 40,000 plus Versus Port, Freo and Adelaide. Infact since the glory years ended it is more accurate to say they "never" do.

IF they were top 4 playing Freo they would get over 40,000. So would Carlton and Richmond IF TOP 4.

Essendon are a great club Dave with support not far behind Collingwood. However what I am saying is let's not exaggerate. Dan is sufficiently well versed in the facts to know well he was exaggerating making that unfounded claim.

 

[gaelictiogar]

Essendon fans are delusional and are only kidding themselves.

Spin it however you like but you ain't fooling anyone.

Everyone knows that Collingwood has the strongest crowd pulling power in Victoria.

Whilst what you say is true you would be surprised at how small the gap between the Pies and the rest of the Big 4 actually is if we look at history. The idea that they are some kind of untouchable superpower is simply wrong and to be fair to Dan many of his conclusions are right.

Carlton, Richmond and Essendon have ALL finished ahead of Collingwood numerous times throughout history in attendance terms. Recently both Richmond and Collingwood have spooned. The spooning Richmond outdrew the spooning Pies and are the higherst drawing spoon team in history. Essendon were the higherst drawing team over a season until as late as 2008 when the Pies benefitted from all round increased attendances.

Collingwood's 55,000 membership is huge and impressive and I applaud them but Essendon would do almost as well if they were regularly top 4. Richmond, poor basketcase laughing stock yesterday's team Richmond sold 47,000 last year and probably had more Vic members than Collingwood. A mid ladder Carlton have been easily breaking 1,000,000 a season.

Collingwood ARE the biggest draw....just about but the idea they are a unique power is wrong.

 

[Chaz Pendlebury]

Eyes on TV sets?

Here are the average Melbourne TV audiences for all free-to-air games that Essendon, Collingwood and Carlton were in for 2009.

Essendon won 10 games, Carlton, 13 and Collingwood 15. Essendon had the highest average Melbourne audience.

ESSENDON
vs Port Adelaide 222,000
vs Carlton 423,000
vs Collingwood 664,000
vs Brisbane 354,000
vs Hawthorn 518,000
vs Richmond 411,000
vs Geelong 352,000
vs Melbourne 368,000
vs Carlton 505,000
vs Collingwood 531,000
vs Bulldogs 396,000
vs Richmond 314,000
vs Hawthorn 409,000

Average: 420,500



COLLINGWOOD
vs Melbourne 251,000
vs Geelong 486,000
vs Brisbane 527,000
vs Essendon 664,000
vs Nth.Melb 465,000
vs St.Kilda 530,000
vs Carlton 306,000
vs Melbourne 471,000
vs Sydney 515,000
vs Fremantle 218,000
vs Essendon 531,000
vs Bulldogs 462,000
vs Hawthorn 390,000
vs Carlton 497,000
vs Brisbane 370,000
vs Adelaide 299,000
vs Richmond 277,000
vs Sydney 264,000

Average: 417,000



Carlton
vs Richmond 709,000
vs Essendon 423,000
vs Bulldogs 357,000
vs Hawthorn 310,000
vs Fremantle 382,000
vs Collingwood 306,000
vs West Coast 389,000
vs Brisbane 433,000
vs St.Kilda 553,000
vs Essendon 505,000
vs Richmond 294,000
vs Collingwood 497,000
vs Nth Melb 387,000
vs Geelong 438,000
vs Port Adelaide 320,000
vs Melbourne 230,000

Average: 408,000

As anyone see from the above, Essendon played just the two matches against non-vic teams on fta (Pies 6, Blues 4)

And of course both played 2 extra saturday afternoon games

Just looking at night matches

Essendon 438,000
Collingwood 462,000
Carlton 472,000

Now why do you think the networks would be comfortable with 6 pies v non-vic matches, 4 blues but only 2 essendon?

 

[PAFC66]

28,999 were Essendon supporters..... Whats your point?

So there were more Essendon Supporters than the actual attendance? Interesting

i was there and there was at least 3k Port fans, was bloody loud up the lockett end.

Not at all surprised.. id jump off too if my club decided to appoint a sacked SANFL coach to the club

 

[greatwhiteshark]

So it looks as though the average is around 30K for games against interstate sides for both Essendon and Collingwood or there abouts??
Which I think is a fair crowd.

I have a question though.

How come when you guys play a NM or whoever and draw 50K to the game do your supporters come and claim that they had 90% of the crowd there?

Thread just recently saying they thought it would be lucky if NM had 5K attend the game last weekend?

My question is why don't your 45K supporters turn up to watch against the interstate sides?

Maybe its time you gave a little credit to your opposition supporters in gving you these inflated figures that you keep claiming are only because of your members.

If your clubs have around 40k members then there seems to be a lot of people just donating money to your club and not going to the games that often.

Don't get me wrong I am not questioning your pulling power but there is no doubt that you claim a huge percentage of the crowds are yours when in fact it is more than likely about a 60-40 split against Melbourne teams.

There is no way yopu will convince me that the Colling wood V NM game on the weekend there were less than 20K NM supporters there.

 

[Chaz Pendlebury]

So it looks as though the average is around 30K for games against interstate sides for both Essendon and Collingwood or there abouts??
Which I think is a fair crowd.

I have a question though.

How come when you guys play a NM or whoever and draw 50K to the game do your supporters come and claim that they had 90% of the crowd there?

Thread just recently saying they thought it would be lucky if NM had 5K attend the game last weekend?

My question is why don't your 45K supporters turn up to watch against the interstate sides?

Maybe its time you gave a little credit to your opposition supporters in gving you these inflated figures that you keep claiming are only because of your members.

If your clubs have around 40k members then there seems to be a lot of people just donating money to your club and not going to the games that often.

Don't get me wrong I am not questioning your pulling power but there is no doubt that you claim a huge percentage of the crowds are yours when in fact it is more than likely about a 60-40 split against Melbourne teams.

There is no way yopu will convince me that the Colling wood V NM game on the weekend there were less than 20K NM supporters there.

Because we don't average 30,000....the average is well over 40 for the last few years

2009
V Adelaide 41,588 mcg
V Port 34,783 mcg (sunday twilight freezing/raining)
V Freo 44,114 MCG
V Lions 47,268 MCG
v Sydney 54,400 MCG

2008
v Freo 45,383 MCG
v west coast 52,968 (MCG)
v Adelaide 52,592 (MCG)
v Sydney 45,570 (Etihad)

2007
v Freo 44,480 (MCG)
v Bris 45,096 (MCG)
v Syd 63,842 (MCG)
v Adel 47,915 (MCG)

North 2010

V West coast 18,394
V Sydney 23,646
V melb 26,763


North 2009
V Port 14,342
V Freo 15,436
V Bris 21,583
v Melb 16,594
V haw 34,983
v ess 33,842
v Rich 29,224
v Coll 40,087
v Saints 30,962
v Dogs 31,470
v Car 38,554


Now why would a team that averages at best 15,000 of its own supporters to home games suddenly pull 20,000 to an away game?

Why would a team that pulls 40,000 of its own supporters to home games against non-vic teams suddenly get 30,000 against a vic team?

Melbourne teams would be lucky to get 60% of their support to away games compared to home games. Apart from the big matches, we would only get above 30,000 for out away matches when we are flying.

North had 10,000 at best on Saturday night

 

[dave10]

nah dude, bums on seats and than eyes on sets are all that count

i don't do any fantasy football game and i'm a huge fan. a lot of people i know that do have a largely dispassionate relationship to football and the the dream team is there point of engagement. then of course there are significant demographic biases in who has a dt or sc team. you could also argue you are more likely to have one when your team is shyte!

certainly less valid than bums on seats of which carlton are essendons equals

I have to disagree Chaz. The Dreamteam and Supercoach comps are such a large pool of footy fans that you cant dismiss it. It is over 200,000 people. The fact that both indicate club breakdowns adds even more weight. Bums on seats and on sets are not as good an indicator because these dont take into account fluctuations in on field form or where teams play (eg Ess at the Dome for 4-5 big Vic club matches).

I am not argueing that Essendon is better supported than Collingwood however I would argue that Essendons support is closer to Collingwoods than you think and if Essendon were performing as well as Collingwood on field and playing all home games at the MCG I think you would find there would be very little difference between the two teams attendances or memberships for that matter.

BTW - I think Essendon rated better than Collingwood on free to air TV in 2009;

 

[Rack Watts]

I came up from Tassie for the match and brought 12 friends with me for my B'day, I thought it was a pretty small crowd, still a great atmosphere and heaps of tun.