Essendon and North Melbourne - who finishes higher in 2023?

[Bunk Moreland]

Cripple fight vibes ITT

 

[MCG-Unit]

Esso

 

[The Nostradamus]

LDU Simpkin Phillips Thomas Powell and Wardlaw

Coming up against Hobbs, Perkins, Tsatas, Martin and caldwell

I’ll happily back what we have in the mids going forward

Larkey and McKay at either end again I’ll take them over 2m Peter and Laverde

Then we get to the mid sized players Sheezel, Zurhaar, Stephenson against what Durham d’ambrossio and McGrath

 

[Yoda_]

My view is:

Midfield, really a no contest. As I said earlier, Essendon have a habit of neglecting two things: Tall and accountable mids. Hobbs is the only that breaks the mould (from a defensive perspective), but I expect Wardlaw and even Phillips to be better. For me, LDU is so clearly the best young player of the two clubs, that alone leaves provides a gap, but on top of that we run far deeper considering the level of investment we’ve made in young mids.

Backline, both are pretty average tbh. McKay & Logue (although not exactly young anymore) are a KPD combination Essendon could only dream of. Both clubs need a fair bit of work in this area, hopefully Reid & Hayes come good. Whilst North need Goater to continue what he did late last year.

Forward, I have North but still an area both need to improve. Larkey & 2MP (2 years older) are pretty comparable but Larkeys age gives him the advantage in this debate. Jones looks a good prospect, North have big wraps on Comben and expect him to play 23 games next year but jury is out. Zurhaar, Thomas, Taylor, Ford all proven to kick bags at AFL level. Dons fans rate Martin (rightly so) but I expect him to move into the mid. Paul Curtis I think has the makings of one of the best small forwards in the comp. Finally there is Harry Sheezel, who is the best u18 forward prospect of either club…

Midfield is discounting the out of draft guys we have taken. Nic Martin was top 5 in the rising star this year, Jye Caldwell has shown a very strong propensity to do the hard stuff on the defensive end whilst Sam Durham has gone from borderline AFL player to best 22 in the space of 18 months. We could pad out the midfield further and we have done this off season with Setterfield, Tsatas was third best player in the draft all year and Mitch Szybkowski was considered by some a top 25 option.


Backline; ill give you the key position players. Ours are clearly a work in progress and young, Reid, Hayes and possibly Cox are both exceptionally young so could become genuine stars. The smalls I will happily take, Mason Redman, Jordan Ridley, Jake Kelly are very good to elite as evidenced by conceding the 6th least amount of points this year. That is with the midfield sieve we had this year.

Are we going off potential or what is happening because Peter Wright literally finished 5th in the Coleman this year. Larkey looks a neat prospect but I am personally not completely convinced. His 38 goals was padded out by the three big games he had (7, 6, 5), Wright was probably two levels above (53 goals) and was only padded out by 2 big games (5 & 6). The smalls are comparable though. Zurhaar probably gives North an edge when comparing the two lists, we have Tippa as our match winner but coming from a way back. the rest are either unproven like North's or shown small glimpses.



Don't get me wrong North have some reasonable youth but after another sub standard year it is easy to get seduced into them significantly improving when they have not taken a step or two in the past three seasons. Alistair Clarkson will obviously bring a more hardened edge to the group but most Essendon (and some non Bomber) supporters also think similarly to that of Brad Scott.


Overall, I think Essendon's best (even non U25) is better than North's whilst we probably bat deeper than North currently in our best 22 so easier to see why we should be rated ahead.

 

[Milanista28]

LDU Simpkin Phillips Thomas Powell and Wardlaw

Coming up against Hobbs, Perkins, Tsatas, Martin and caldwell

I’ll happily back what we have in the mids going forward

Larkey and McKay at either end again I’ll take them over 2m Peter and Laverde

Then we get to the mid sized players Sheezel, Zurhaar, Stephenson against what Durham d’ambrossio and McGrath

How about trying to beat Merrett, Parish and Shiel before you look at our younger brigade, those 3 smash your midfield every time we play.

 

[The Nostradamus]

How about trying to beat Merrett, Parish and Shiel before you look at our younger brigade, those 3 smash your midfield every time we play.

I’m looking ahead to when we are challenging not next year

My point is you may finish above us next year but get ready for us to leapfrog you the year after and when it matters

 

[blitzer]

Talking 2023 only I doubt North will even be close to Essendon.
People forget just how abysmal they actually were this year. They have a long way to go to even just be a generally competitive footy side.

We are discussing a side that finished with a % of 55.8.
Essendon were a disappointing side that finished with % of 83.2 - basically we were leagues better despite not being that good.

If you look historically at other teams that have been as bad as North were in 2022 - they don't just jump into becoming a good side the next year. If they improve it will likely be to something like a 75-80% side next year and probably 4-5 wins or thereabouts. I reckon Essendon will cover that in a canter.

Essendon's core of experienced midfielders will see us finish above North comfortably.

 

[Milanista28]

I’m looking ahead to when we are challenging not next year

My point is you may finish above us next year but get ready for us to leapfrog you the year after and when it matters

Well go to that thread, this is about 2023. Also I disagree you'll leapfrog us, but that's a guessing game at this stage.

 

[Yoda_]

I’m looking ahead to when we are challenging not next year

My point is you may finish above us next year but get ready for us to leapfrog you the year after and when it matters

We have the bones of a decent spine now, just need to hope they can continue to develop because midfield building should be the easiest spot to complete. Even if we have neglected it for ny on two decades

 

[Le Grille]

Clarkson at North has Malthouse at Carlton written all over it.

I disagree completely.

Clarkson is joking a club coming off no base in terms of fitness and structure, not only that he has continued to work on professional development and that indicates he’s doing this for the right reasons.

Malthouse took over a finals level team with a coach who was ok purely encouraged by trying to
Get revenge on the pies.

Again I expect a huge improvement for north this year. 2022 was truly a case of everything that could go wrong did.

I think a huge fixable issue from 2022 is fitness we were deplorable on that front and I expect that to be rectified at least to get us to par fitness. Generally improvements from a below average base does result in a few more wins.

We had a lot of talented players who have previously shown good play seriously not fire a shot ie TT, Stephenson, even Zurhaar at times. I’m not suggesting they’ll win a Brownlow but getting them back to levels that they’ve previously reached will make a huge difference.

 

[DERO]

What the * does North Melbourne's youth have to do with hawthorn getting the spoon?

 

[Psicosis]

Midfield is discounting the out of draft guys we have taken. Nic Martin was top 5 in the rising star this year, Jye Caldwell has shown a very strong propensity to do the hard stuff on the defensive end whilst Sam Durham has gone from borderline AFL player to best 22 in the space of 18 months. We could pad out the midfield further and we have done this off season with Setterfield, Tsatas was third best player in the draft all year and Mitch Szybkowski was considered by some a top 25 option.


Backline; ill give you the key position players. Ours are clearly a work in progress and young, Reid, Hayes and possibly Cox are both exceptionally young so could become genuine stars. The smalls I will happily take, Mason Redman, Jordan Ridley, Jake Kelly are very good to elite as evidenced by conceding the 6th least amount of points this year. That is with the midfield sieve we had this year.

Are we going off potential or what is happening because Peter Wright literally finished 5th in the Coleman this year. Larkey looks a neat prospect but I am personally not completely convinced. His 38 goals was padded out by the three big games he had (7, 6, 5), Wright was probably two levels above (53 goals) and was only padded out by 2 big games (5 & 6). The smalls are comparable though. Zurhaar probably gives North an edge when comparing the two lists, we have Tippa as our match winner but coming from a way back. the rest are either unproven like North's or shown small glimpses.



Don't get me wrong North have some reasonable youth but after another sub standard year it is easy to get seduced into them significantly improving when they have not taken a step or two in the past three seasons. Alistair Clarkson will obviously bring a more hardened edge to the group but most Essendon (and some non Bomber) supporters also think similarly to that of Brad Scott.


Overall, I think Essendon's best (even non U25) is better than North's whilst we probably bat deeper than North currently in our best 22 so easier to see why we should be rated ahead.

Whilst I appreciate your spreadsheets Yoda, I disagree.

Tbh you lost me at Tsatas and Szybkowski. 95% of your bigfooty board didn’t want Tsatas whilst Szybkowski isn’t actually on Essendons list yet.

Last thing I’ll say, when comparing Wright and Larkey, it’s worth mentioning the age difference when discussing KPPs. I mean when Wright was Larkeys 24, he kicked 29 goals for Essendon/couldn’t get a game for Gold Coast.

 

[Jeremias]

A Carlton supporter defending Essendon? Hell might very well have frozen over…

I'll defend even Essendon if I think they're being unfairly judged or rated.

Luckily they give me more than a fair share of reasons to laugh at them in return.

Just look at this midfield LDU Simpkin Wardlaw Powell Phillips Thomas. That’s dynasty like with clarko

"Dynasty like".

 

[Pistol Night]

I'll defend even Essendon if I think they're being unfairly judged or rated.

Luckily they give me more than a fair share of reasons to laugh at them in return.



"Dynasty like".

There’s still plenty of room for rational conversation surely.

 

[Yoda_]

Whilst I appreciate your spreadsheets Yoda, I disagree.

Tbh you lost me at Tsatas and Szybkowski. 95% of your bigfooty board didn’t want Tsatas whilst Szybkowski isn’t actually on Essendons list yet.

Last thing I’ll say, when comparing Wright and Larkey, it’s worth mentioning the age difference when discussing KPPs. I mean when Wright was Larkeys 24, he kicked 29 goals for Essendon/couldn’t get a game for Gold Coast.

That is fine with me. I appreciate the non dickies reply that 95% of BigFooty would come back with, well done.

Tsatas is on the list so firmly in the conversation, whilst Szybkwoski isn't (yet), he should be by round 1 if my information is correct.

The age difference isn't like comparing 4 years or anything, Larkey is a mere 18 months younger than Peter Wright. Wright finished 5th in the Coleman, a good result for a bloke who couldn't get a game (pushed out) at Gold Coast.



I understand the excitement that North Melbourne want to build but let's not pretend here, North had statistically one of the worst seasons not from an expansion side in decades. Even Essendon's suspended fill ins fared better.

Again, I was very bullish on North this time last year, more than happy for you to search my post history, not making the same mistake this year. We finished with 7 wins (North 2), and a significantly better percentage (+27.48) so easy to conclude we should be better. With a softer draw (bottom 6 draw), more development in OUR young players as well, we should be much better placed to improve on 2022 much like North Melbourne.

 

[Jeremias]

Tsatas can't be included in the conversation because "95% of your bigfooty board didn’t want" him.

* me.

 

[Psicosis]

That is fine with me. I appreciate the non dickies reply that 95% of BigFooty would come back with, well done.

Tsatas is on the list so firmly in the conversation, whilst Szybkwoski isn't (yet), he should be by round 1 if my information is correct.

The age difference isn't like comparing 4 years or anything, Larkey is a mere 18 months younger than Peter Wright. Wright finished 5th in the Coleman, a good result for a bloke who couldn't get a game (pushed out) at Gold Coast.



I understand the excitement that North Melbourne want to build but let's not pretend here, North had statistically one of the worst seasons not from an expansion side in decades. Even Essendon's suspended fill ins fared better.

Again, I was very bullish on North this time last year, more than happy for you to search my post history, not making the same mistake this year. We finished with 7 wins (North 2), and a significantly better percentage (+27.48) so easy to conclude we should be better. With a softer draw (bottom 6 draw), more development in OUR young players as well, we should be much better placed to improve on 2022 much like North Melbourne.

Age is relevant when comparing Wright and Larkey, because 12-18 months ago Wright was someone that couldn’t get a game at Gold Coast and kicked 29 goals for Essendon.

Well aware that North has had a shocking 2022 & that may mean that Essendon do finish ahead of North in 2023. However, I think the gap between North and Essendons youth, will only increase under Alastair.

 

[Psicosis]

It’s there for all to read mate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You wanted someone to engage with you about why they thought Norths youth was better. I did.

What I didn’t do was say was that Tsatas can’t be included. I said the vast majority of Essendon BF posters didn’t want you to select him. Which makes it bizarre to me when you point to him immediately in your praise of Essendons youth.

 

[Yoda_]

Age is relevant when comparing Wright and Larkey, because 12-18 months ago Wright was someone that couldn’t get a game at Gold Coast and kicked 29 goals for Essendon.

Well aware that North has had a shocking 2022 & that may mean that Essendon do finish ahead of North in 2023. However, I think the gap between North and Essendons youth, will only increase under Alastair.

We all are aware of Wrights inability whilst at Gold Coast, happy with the return on invest for 2MP.


It’s sounding like North will be better cause we are younger, it’s not a great argument. The average between the two was .1 month and the games difference on the lists was 2.5 so again, not like it’s a huge difference. Further to that, we did cull a large chunk of experience on our list with Hurley, D.Smith hanging up the boots, Cutler and Waterman being delisted and Francis being traded. Most weren’t even considered best 22.

So again, the Norths youth is better argument doesn’t stack up imho. Our youth is our best 22 and won us games against decent opposition in the back half of 2022. saints, swans, lions, Suns


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Yoda_]

You wanted someone to engage with you about why they thought Norths youth was better. I did.

What I didn’t do was say was that Tsatas can’t be included. I said the vast majority of Essendon BF posters didn’t want you to select him. Which makes it bizarre to me when you point to him immediately in your praise of Essendons youth.

I was happy with him, why am I included in the “95%”?

The argument from some North supporters has Wardlaw and Sheezel included, why should a player taken in the same draft not be included?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Psicosis]

We all are aware of Wrights inability whilst at Gold Coast, happy with the return on invest for 2MP.


It’s sounding like North will be better cause we are younger, it’s not a great argument. The average between the two was .1 month and the games difference on the lists was 2.5 so again, not like it’s a huge difference. Further to that, we did cull a large chunk of experience on our list with Hurley, D.Smith hanging up the boots, Cutler and Waterman being delisted and Francis being traded. Most weren’t even considered best 22.

So again, the Norths youth is better argument doesn’t stack up imho. Our youth is our best 22 and won us games against decent opposition in the back half of 2022. saints, swans, lions, Suns


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I never said that North will be better because Essendon are younger. My whole opinion is around the fact I think North have better quality youth, rather then quantity. You’re more entitled to disagree, but you asked for an explanation & you got one.

 

[TheUnicorn]

North can’t seem to seperate being a high draft pick and being quality, one does not automatically mean the other.

 

[Yoda_]

I never said that North will be better because Essendon are younger. My whole opinion is around the fact I think North have better quality youth, rather then quantity. You’re more entitled to disagree, but you asked for an explanation & you got one.

wouldn't youth that is playing suggest they are better consider they are performing in a team higher on the ladder, albeit marginally?

 

[The Nostradamus]

North can’t seem to seperate being a high draft pick and being quality, one does not automatically mean the other.

More often than not it does

Having multiple top very high end talent (excluding expansion sides) usually results in a pretty decent team especially when combined with a good coach

We never truly bottom out but have over the last few years to accumulate high end talent and set us up for success

 

[Psicosis]

North can’t seem to seperate being a high draft pick and being quality, one does not automatically mean the other.

I’d probably take this stance as well if Dodo had botched as many of our early picks