Everything Breeding

[slushpup]

I didnt pick up how good a sire Lion Hunter was til I saw Gold Edition in action, now I always back them up to 1200m. (They can jag a mid distance race but not worth the risk) Its a shame he has died, but there is still plenty kicking around doing well in the sprints.
I suggest though to only back his grey offspring, any who are not seem to battle as they must have inherited their mares dud abilities.

Immortality won very impressively yesterday being a grey by Lion Hunter.

 

[The Dustbin]

I'm looking forward to Reset's first crop of runners this season.

Wonder if Lloyd will take a fancy to his former champions offspring...

 

[Punter_22]

I see Reset has his first runner at Caulfield today. It is called Reconcentrate and Freedman has it.

Undefeated in five starts, he was a great racehorse. How do people think he will go as a stallion? He is a son of Zabeel which generally hasn't been a recipe for success at stud. I don't think he is a typical Zabeel though as his racing style suggested, so I think he can be a real hit at stud. Anyone got any inside words on any of his 2yo's?

 

[Yaaablett]

I see Reset has his first runner at Caulfield today. It is called Reconcentrate and Freedman has it.

Undefeated in five starts, he was a great racehorse. How do people think he will go as a stallion? He is a son of Zabeel which generally hasn't been a recipe for success at stud. I don't think he is a typical Zabeel though as his racing style suggested, so I think he can be a real hit at stud. Anyone got any inside words on any of his 2yo's?

Reset is certainly bred to be good by Zabeel out of Assertive Lass, a Zeditave full sister to Doncaster winner and top 2 yo Assertive Lad. Assertive Lass was up with the best fillies of her year as well.The best Zabeels always seem to be gelded- Sky Heights, Zonda, Might And Power, Maldivian etc. The only real star colt he has had was Octagonal who has not lived up to expectations apart form Lonhro, Niello and the European Laverock. Interesteing to not that Zabeel's best win was over 1600m as a 3 year old. Colin Hayes thought his acceleration was outstanding. Yet he has produced mainly stayers. Reset was certainly built like a sprinter and with his female side you would think his progeny will be best suited 1200-1600. I hope he makes cause we deperately need some non Danzig/Danehill/Northern Dancer line stallions here in Aus.

 

[the_fresh]

Reset is certainly bred to be good by Zabeel out of Assertive Lass, a Zeditave full sister to Doncaster winner and top 2 yo Assertive Lad. Assertive Lass was up with the best fillies of her year as well.The best Zabeels always seem to be gelded- Sky Heights, Zonda, Might And Power, Maldivian etc. The only real star colt he has had was Octagonal who has not lived up to expectations apart form Lonhro, Niello and the European Laverock. Interesteing to not that Zabeel's best win was over 1600m as a 3 year old. Colin Hayes thought his acceleration was outstanding. Yet he has produced mainly stayers. Reset was certainly built like a sprinter and with his female side you would think his progeny will be best suited 1200-1600. I hope he makes cause we deperately need some non Danzig/Danehill/Northern Dancer line stallions here in Aus.

One of my faves,
did it as a 2 & 3 year old, won a ton on him in the donny,

 

[Lockyer24]

3 Zabeels have won the Cup

Might and Power, Jezabeel and Efficient.

3 Sir Tristams (Zabeels sire) have won the Cup

Gurners Lane, Empire Rose, and Brew.

I can't wait for the little Elvis'!

 

[Bobby Beecroft]

Danerich, California Dane, and Bel Danoro are going to have to do it the hard way. Anyone with a blue blood mare thats is suitable for a Danehill line stallion has far better options than these untried, over hyped, cotton wool sprinters.

You might have been one of those that threw Encost de Lago in the same bracket. Sometimes the injury prone under raced gallopers tend to be the better sires.

Easy to jump on a Lonhro as lets face it, it will get the better book of mares & be given every chance. EI may give some of the freshman for this season a better than normal opportunity to show something.

No mention of Hussonet, yet.

Quick query. What is the best site to get a look at each sires book for the season?

 

[go fullta]

www.studbook.org.au but you do have to register

very good call on lonhro and reminding us of encosta!!

a lot of people bagged hussonet when he 1st came out, because he was argentinian!!
estambul who is from that country as well has had two 2yr old runners for 2 winners!! he was a flying machine on the track running like 54 secs for 1000m and may kick on to do better things at stud.

 

[go fullta]

i like the look of minnesota shark in the next at flemington!! looks unreal in the mounting yard and is by lonhro and is out of a gun mare called ponton flyer!!

everything breeding suggests it will win

 

[Yaaablett]

You might have been one of those that threw Encost de Lago in the same bracket. Sometimes the injury prone under raced gallopers tend to be the better sires.

Easy to jump on a Lonhro as lets face it, it will get the better book of mares & be given every chance. EI may give some of the freshman for this season a better than normal opportunity to show something.

No mention of Hussonet, yet.

Quick query. What is the best site to get a look at each sires book for the season?

Robert my boy. Encosta was never hyped to the extent of these Danehill cats. One major difference too. Encosta was a group 1 winner. It may be easy to jump on Lonhro? It was easy to jump on Octagonal too I guess, and that really didn't turn out that great apart form a handful. Lots of sires are given every chance and dont make it.

Hussonet has proven a great success and in Weekend Hussler got the good one that all new sires desperately need. He will have to prove that was not a fluke. Interseting to see how his Sunline and Alinghi foals are recieved and race.

 

[Ted]

Here is Sportingbet's book for Leading Sire by Prizemoney 2007/2008 Season (Australian Races Only)

Encosta De Lago 2.40
Zabeel 2.60
Redoutes Choice 3.80
Flying Spur 10.00
Any Other Sire 12.00
Lion Hunter 17.00

 

[Ted]

And for 2007/2008 Leading First Season Sire - Individual winners at Australian race meetings covered by the TAB:

Exceed And Excel 1.80
Lohnro 4.00
Untouchable 5.00
Reset 13.00
Hold That Tiger 15.00
Dubai Destination 13.00
Pure Theatre 17.00
Grandera 21.00
Falbrav 26.00
Hawkwing 31.00
Half Hennessy 35.00
Lucky Owners 41.00
Statue Of Liberty 21.00
Lago Delight 51.00
Helenus 101.00
Estambul 11.00

 

[carltonblue]

Ted, or anybody else, who is this Untouchable?

 

[the_fresh]

Great story in the UK today on breeding

Racehorse breeders who spend tens of thousands of pounds on stud fees may be wasting their money: research has shown that prices bear no relation to the likelihood of producing winners.
An analysis of more than 4,000 horses has revealed that the prize money they earn is only slightly related to the genetic quality of the stallions that sire them – and that high stud fees do not reliably buy breeders good genes.
The study, by scientists at the University of Edinburgh, found that up to 90 per cent of the difference in racehorses’ performance, measured by lifetime winnings, is due to environmental factors such as training and jockeys’ skills.
While the remaining 10 per cent is linked to breeding and pedigree, the size of the fee charged for stud is not linked at all to genetic quality, the researchers found.
Related Links

• 10% factor that makes a champion

Horses sired by cheaper stallions, who are nevertheless well trained and expertly ridden, will earn just as much as those with more expensive fathers.
Alastair Wilson, who led the research, said: “The offspring of expensive stallions might tend to win more money, but not necessarily because they have inherited the best genes.
“It is likely that those breeders best able to pay high stud fees are also those who are able to spend more on care of the horse, how it is trained and who rides it – all of which will contribute more to how much it will win.
“Of course, if every breeder is spending lots on the care of the horse, then the difference between winning or losing will come down to the smaller details, such as who the parents are. So picking the best genes can give an edge, but it’s by no means clear that the best genes come with the highest price tag.”
In the study, which is published in the journal Biology Letters, Dr Wilson and his colleague Andrew Rambaut compiled a database of 4,476 horses foaled between 1922 and 2003, along with stud fee data for 554 active stallions.
They then looked at the interaction between particular bloodlines and performance, as measured by each horse’s lifetime earnings.
The scientists found that there was only a small link between genes and success, with training, race choice and jockey selection making much more difference.
Any connection between success and the size of stud fees, however, depended wholly on these environmental effects; there was no connection to genetic quality at all.
“While there are good genes to be bought, a stallion’s fees are not an honest signal of his genetic quality and are a poor predictor of a foal’s prize-winning potential,” the scientists said. “It does not appear that you get what you pay for.”
Stud fees can range from about £1,000 for unproven stallions to hundreds of thousands of pounds for Derby winners and other champions.

 

[go fullta]

Ted, or anybody else, who is this Untouchable?

untouchable stands at darley, in nsw for $7,7000. seems good value, should do well in his 1st season. him and gonski are the ones to watch from darley, who are at a reasonable service fee

he had 4 starts for 2 wins all at 2yrs of age, and a second. won a 1200m race at randwick beating face value, bella corona, sunset run and tsuimai. his timeform rating was 122. his best performance was a 2nd in the todman, beaten a short neck by (exceed and excel) and untouchable also beat home neillo and danbird in that event.

he is very well bred, by danehill, out of camarena, who won 9 races including the qld derby, and 2nd in the mckinnon. she is also the dam of camarilla!! she is also related to canny lad and canny lass through the 2nd dam.

 

[go fullta]

And for 2007/2008 Leading First Season Sire - Individual winners at Australian race meetings covered by the TAB:

Exceed And Excel 1.80
Lohnro 4.00
Untouchable 5.00
Reset 13.00
Hold That Tiger 15.00
Dubai Destination 13.00
Pure Theatre 17.00
Grandera 21.00
Falbrav 26.00
Hawkwing 31.00
Half Hennessy 35.00
Lucky Owners 41.00
Statue Of Liberty 21.00
Lago Delight 51.00
Helenus 101.00
Estambul 11.00

statue of liberty is huge odds at 21 dollars!! lago delight could be a good roughie at 51-1...his group of 2 yr olds should be early runners like there dad

 

[Yaaablett]

untouchable stands at darley, in nsw for $7,7000. seems good value, should do well in his 1st season. him and gonski are the ones to watch from darley, who are at a reasonable service fee

he had 4 starts for 2 wins all at 2yrs of age, and a second. won a 1200m race at randwick beating face value, bella corona, sunset run and tsuimai. his timeform rating was 122. his best performance was a 2nd in the todman, beaten a short neck by (exceed and excel) and untouchable also beat home neillo and danbird in that event.

he is very well bred, by danehill, out of camarena, who won 9 races including the qld derby, and 2nd in the mckinnon. she is also the dam of camarilla!! she is also related to canny lad and canny lass through the 2nd dam.

Untouchable is not out of Camarena. Untouchable is out of Canny Miss. Canny Miss isi a Marscay 3/4 sister to Canny Lad and Canny Lass. Camarena is also out ot Canny Miss, which is where the confusion comes from. He was an excellent 2 year old though and was very unlucky in that race that Exceed And Excel won.

 

[Yaaablett]

And for 2007/2008 Leading First Season Sire - Individual winners at Australian race meetings covered by the TAB:

Exceed And Excel 1.80
Lohnro 4.00
Untouchable 5.00
Reset 13.00
Hold That Tiger 15.00
Dubai Destination 13.00
Pure Theatre 17.00
Grandera 21.00
Falbrav 26.00
Hawkwing 31.00
Half Hennessy 35.00
Lucky Owners 41.00
Statue Of Liberty 21.00
Lago Delight 51.00
Helenus 101.00
Estambul 11.00

Terrible odds but Exceed and Excel will be very hard to beat. I like Falbrav as a stallion but doubt he'll get the super precocious ones that you need to win this title.

 

[go fullta]

Untouchable is not out of Camarena. Untouchable is out of Canny Miss. Canny Miss isi a Marscay 3/4 sister to Canny Lad and Canny Lass. Camarena is also out ot Canny Miss, which is where the confusion comes from. He was an excellent 2 year old though and was very unlucky in that race that Exceed And Excel won.

sorry, your right, i was mistaken by the information i have from darleys promotion info on there stallions

 

[Bobby Beecroft]

Robert my boy. Encosta was never hyped to the extent of these Danehill cats. One major difference too. Encosta was a group 1 winner. It may be easy to jump on Lonhro?

My Boy? No need to be so condescending.
Thought you created the thread to start up some conversation about breeding & the moment someone challenges a point its suddenly 'my boy'.

'I think he will make it'
Lonhro - stands at $66,000 - 11 Group 1s

'Overhyped Danehills'
Danerich - $7,700 - Group 3 winner
California Dane - $11,000 - Group 2 winner
Bel Danoro - $5,500 - Group 3 winner

I must have missed the hype & given the prices I guess Rangal Park, Baerami Stud, & Vinery Stud have also missed it.
I would enjoy a full explanation as to where all of this hype is coming from?
Your right Encosta was never hyped in his 1st season but neither have these 3 been.

It may be easy to jump on Lonhro?
Given the race records & standing prices yes it is quite easy to declare he would make it over these other stallions, without even considering the discrepancy in the quality of mares.
Similar to stating that you have a 'gut feel' that Geelong may make the 8 next season...... ease up on the bold predictions.

Anyway that was part of the point I tried to make with my previous post.
Some seemed to get it.

The main part was that sometimes a well bred underaced horse (often due to niggles), can be the one that shocks in the breeding world. I guess we just wait & see it all unfold.

 

[go fullta]

this thread should become a sticky, breeding is a very important topic in the racing industry i believe

 

[Ted]

Magnus will be standing at Eliza Park after his autumn campaign in 2008.

16 starts for 4 wins 8 placings, last 13 starts black type (winner G1 Galaxy, G2 Age Classic, second G1 Lightning behind Miss Andretti, third G1 Oakleigh half length behind Undue, Kings Stand Stakes at Royal Ascot behind Miss Andretti and ahead of Takeover Target and Bentley Biscuit, fourth G1 Newmarket where the first four horses across the line all broke the course record)

Son of Flying Spur, out of Scandinavia (winner G2 QTC Cup, G3 Blue Diamond Prelude, second G1 Salinger, G1 SAJC Goodwood, third G1 Newmarket, G1 Lightning)

Reasonable prospects!

 

[go fullta]

im excited about magnus, only problem is...how much is he going to stand for? hopefully not something outrageous!! all depends on his autumn campaign i spose...

 

[Yaaablett]

My Boy? No need to be so condescending.
Thought you created the thread to start up some conversation about breeding & the moment someone challenges a point its suddenly 'my boy'.

'I think he will make it'
Lonhro - stands at $66,000 - 11 Group 1s

'Overhyped Danehills'
Danerich - $7,700 - Group 3 winner
California Dane - $11,000 - Group 2 winner
Bel Danoro - $5,500 - Group 3 winner

I must have missed the hype & given the prices I guess Rangal Park, Baerami Stud, & Vinery Stud have also missed it.
I would enjoy a full explanation as to where all of this hype is coming from?
Your right Encosta was never hyped in his 1st season but neither have these 3 been.

It may be easy to jump on Lonhro?
Given the race records & standing prices yes it is quite easy to declare he would make it over these other stallions, without even considering the discrepancy in the quality of mares.
Similar to stating that you have a 'gut feel' that Geelong may make the 8 next season...... ease up on the bold predictions.

Anyway that was part of the point I tried to make with my previous post.
Some seemed to get it.

The main part was that sometimes a well bred underaced horse (often due to niggles), can be the one that shocks in the breeding world. I guess we just wait & see it all unfold.

Sorry Bob I call everyone my boy, no harm intended. You didnt challenge me you assumed that I placed Encosta in some sort of bracket without me discussing him at all.

My point with Lonhro bares no relevance to your Geelong analogy. A lot in the industry are pessimistic concerning Lonhro's chances. Taking a line through Octagonal who recieved astounding support you can see what they mean. I think Occy stood at $55K first year. Not many stallions make it as a top class sire. I should have clarified in that I believe he will be elite, and not just make it. I sort of agree saying he'll make it is not bold, saying he will be elite is. To be honest saying any stallion will make it is in a way bold. Fusaichi Pegasus, Giant's Causeway, Carnegie, Woodman ring a bell. Absolute certainties weren't they?

As to the hype on the Danehill stallions mentioned I meant when they raced. A Danehill entire only needs to show some spark of ability and stallion prospect is blasted all over the media.

Perhaps some of these injury prone under raced sires that you talk about could be mentioned?

 

[Yaaablett]

im excited about magnus, only problem is...how much is he going to stand for? hopefully not something outrageous!! all depends on his autumn campaign i spose...

Assuming his race record stays the same and he doesnt win another group 1 you can probably take a line through some similar type stallions. Jet Spur stands at $13K give or take a grand or two. Magnus having won a Galaxy and been closer in more Group 1's than Jet Spur should be higher than that. Snitzel won 1 group 1 as well, but was a much better 2 year old than Magnus and a son of Redoutes is valued higher than a son of Flying Spur. I would think Magnus will stand at between 20 and 25K.

If he manages to win a Lightning or a Newmarket you could probably add another 10 - 20K. Just my opinion.