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Everything Breeding

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Yaaablett said:
Assuming his race record stays the same and he doesnt win another group 1 you can probably take a line through some similar type stallions. Jet Spur stands at $13K give or take a grand or two. Magnus having won a Galaxy and been closer in more Group 1's than Jet Spur should be higher than that. Snitzel won 1 group 1 as well, but was a much better 2 year old than Magnus and a son of Redoutes is valued higher than a son of Flying Spur. I would think Magnus will stand at between 20 and 25K.

If he manages to win a Lightning or a Newmarket you could probably add another 10 - 20K. Just my opinion.
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You can leave me out of Magnus. His best win came on a water logged track and I just don't think he is a genuine racehorse. He's a bit of a sook. Too hit or miss for my liking. I agree with Yaablet too, I reckon they will stand him around $20K mark. Word is that Meurice will be at stud next year for Darley and if he was around the same price I would go to him any day of the week before Magnus. What he did as a 2yo was phenomenal. He is a tough, genuine racehorse. Even if Meurice was $30K and Magnus $20K I would go to Meurice. Not that I could really ever afford either of them.
 
Yaaablett said:
Sorry Bob I call everyone my boy, no harm intended. You didnt challenge me you assumed that I placed Encosta in some sort of bracket without me discussing him at all.

My point with Lonhro bares no relevance to your Geelong analogy. A lot in the industry are pessimistic concerning Lonhro's chances. Taking a line through Octagonal who recieved astounding support you can see what they mean. I think Occy stood at $55K first year. Not many stallions make it as a top class sire. I should have clarified in that I believe he will be elite, and not just make it. I sort of agree saying he'll make it is not bold, saying he will be elite is. To be honest saying any stallion will make it is in a way bold. Fusaichi Pegasus, Giant's Causeway, Carnegie, Woodman ring a bell. Absolute certainties weren't they?

As to the hype on the Danehill stallions mentioned I meant when they raced. A Danehill entire only needs to show some spark of ability and stallion prospect is blasted all over the media.

Perhaps some of these injury prone under raced sires that you talk about could be mentioned?
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When you mentioned overhyped I thought you meant as breeding prospects, that now makes a little more sense.

Underaced Injury prone sires:
Just from the top a few in this category would be Encosta de Lago, Danzero, O'Reilly & even Lion Hunter.

I am enjoying this thread.
 
Punter_22 said:
You can leave me out of Magnus. His best win came on a water logged track and I just don't think he is a genuine racehorse. He's a bit of a sook. Too hit or miss for my liking. I agree with Yaablet too, I reckon they will stand him around $20K mark. Word is that Meurice will be at stud next year for Darley and if he was around the same price I would go to him any day of the week before Magnus. What he did as a 2yo was phenomenal. He is a tough, genuine racehorse. Even if Meurice was $30K and Magnus $20K I would go to Meurice. Not that I could really ever afford either of them.
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Funny I was the other way with these 2.
Magnus early on was a bit of a nutter throwing away races that he really should have won. I thought his Lightning run were he sat outside the leader with 58.5kg with only Miss Andretti to get pass him as his career best & full of courage.

Meurice I saw when down with Rod Douglas here as a bit of a speedy squib. The only time I ever backed him he gave up terribly. Amazingly this changed once Gai got her hands on him up in Sydney & she certainly got the best out of him.

The area where I think Magnus has it over Meurice is on the Dams side. That family has been producing quality youngsters for years now. They may not have gone on with it, but they can really go early.
 
Punter_22 said:
Invincible Spirit only had 87 live foals, (the majority from ordinary mares), in his first two crops here, so he was always going to struggle to make an impact. Granted, I still think he has only being fair at best.

invincible spirit had another 1st starter come 3rd tonight in the heavy conditions at the valley!! called rozzie's spirit, trained by tom hughes...this horse will definitely win races..
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www.studbook.org.au

but you do have to register!!

i love checking horses that are running around at the moment, see who there related too

for example i found out that just like el, trained by greg eurell is a half to the old tough nut southern crown!!
 
Bobby Beecroft said:
When you mentioned overhyped I thought you meant as breeding prospects, that now makes a little more sense.

Underaced Injury prone sires:
Just from the top a few in this category would be Encosta de Lago, Danzero, O'Reilly & even Lion Hunter.

I am enjoying this thread.
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The best 2 examples I can think of are Danzig and Fairy King who have both became (both dead now?) elite sires. Danzig won 3 from 3 with a best being a listed race and Fairy King was un raced if my memory serves. Interesting that most regard Encosta De Lago and Redoute's Choice as the top 2 stallions in Australia. Encosta being a son of Fairy King and Redoutes a grandson of Danzig.
 
Went to the Deauville races in France today and backed Porto Segouro, son of Octagonal. Had a good win and paid for a big lunch at the course restaurant.

:)
 
stanza spirit just came 2nd at the valley!! 1st starter by invincible spirit!! i had a little something each way on it so i was roaring in the lounge room..
 
Why was Hybrid at such long odds? Ran a nice 2nd also despite doing plenty of work.
Our of Royal Academy its mother is a sister to Circles of Gold!
 
Very interesting pedigree won the 2 year old last Friday. A slipper winning pedigree (at least on paper!). Burgeis. By Catbird (slipper winner) out of a half sister to Stratum (slipper winner). The grand dam of Burgeis is Bourgois (sp?) who is by Luskin Star (slipper winner) and her dam is by Vain (slipper winner). Went fast Friday!
 

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deledio_gun said:
Yeah went very well friday, any word on its next start?
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I think I heard vasil say she would have a run in a Blue Diamond preview and if she performs well straight into the Blue Diamond where she is currently joint favourite.

Doesnt it always seem the way that when a stallion dies its progeny take off. Catbird really needed a headliner while he was alive. He got a lot of handy gallopers like Collate, Cat's Fun, Catechuchu etc but no champion. Lion Hunter was the same. Lovely Jubly was one he got early but since his death Ferocity, Gold Edition and Barbaricus have arrived. Lion Hunter would stand for $40,000 - $50,000 if he was still alive now. Ebony Grosve is another that comes to mind.
 
Generally in breeding you cant go speed to speed or stayer to stayer. I think idealy you need a tough mare to go to a speedy sire or if you have a speedy mare i think a staying sire is best.
 
go fullta, whats your thoughts on that Superzeel? Much scope for improvement?
Have seen him win as a frontrunner, and ran a nice race today with 59 on the back when settling midfield. He looks a classic Zabeel.

I also think Tarpins (out of Pins) looks half decent. They have flogged their rivals in the last two starts. Both have breeding on their side, but have only been racing in moderate class and aren't with big trainers.
 
carltonblue said:
Generally in breeding you cant go speed to speed or stayer to stayer. I think idealy you need a tough mare to go to a speedy sire or if you have a speedy mare i think a staying sire is best.
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it might be different for you carlton blue with standardbreds

disagree...speed to speed is a must, recipe for success!! but stayer to stayer is harder to produce, as they are usually just too slow!! stayer to stayer is more common in europe, and is successful, but it isnt suited to australian Thoroughbred breeding!!

on the other hand, tough mares are real good but im of the opinion that mares, that are flogged during there racing career ( race 40+ times) arent generally successful at stud!!
there are plenty of talented broodmares that werent proven on the track due to various reasons: (injuries, niggling problems, poorly trained- rushed as a young horse etc.) that still throw top horses.
 

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Lockyer24 said:
go fullta, whats your thoughts on that Superzeel? Much scope for improvement?
Have seen him win as a frontrunner, and ran a nice race today with 59 on the back when settling midfield. He looks a classic Zabeel.

I also think Tarpins (out of Pins) looks half decent. They have flogged their rivals in the last two starts. Both have breeding on their side, but have only been racing in moderate class and aren't with big trainers.
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dont know much about them, missed that race today!! i did watch superzeel win at the valley, and he looked a very strong type so he would have no trouble carrying the 58kg and even the 59kg today against a weak lot. sutton has good backing and high class facilities, so he is basically classed as a big trainer!!

its extremely well bred being by zabeel out of leica smile who won the SAJC Australasian Oaks back in 1996, when trained by peter hayes, and was ridden by dan brereton!!
 
go fullta said:
it might be different for you carlton blue with standardbreds

disagree...speed to speed is a must, recipe for success!! but stayer to stayer is harder to produce, as they are usually just too slow!! stayer to stayer is more common in europe, and is successful, but it isnt suited to australian Thoroughbred breeding!!

on the other hand, tough mares are real good but im of the opinion that mares, that are flogged during there racing career ( race 40+ times) arent generally successful at stud!!
there are plenty of talented broodmares that werent proven on the track due to various reasons: (injuries, niggling problems, poorly trained- rushed as a young horse etc.) that still throw top horses.
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Pretty much agree with all of that. The superstar mares seem to have a hard time producing top line progeny. However their daughters seem to have a much better record. Lighly raced Oaks type mares seem to produce more than their share of top liners too.

This is what makes breeding so fascinating. You can have whatever theory you like and no-one can really factually discount it. Tears I Cry, Pharein and Miss Andretti to name 3. All were a million to one to be as good as they are/were on breeding. There is always the possibilty of a freak.

One question to all you guys. Why would Santic send Makybe Diva to Fusaichi Pegasus and not Encosta de Lago? madness in my opinion.
 
agree on the top line mares...sunline, lets elope etc. all wont throw champions, nearly impossible to get one as good as there sire and dam, when they were so succesful on the track
doesnt matter what makybe diva go's too, she will be another who wont throw anything decent in my opinion..

ive been going through the sales history on top priced yearlings in the past 10 years from the major sales in australia, and not to many of them became city class gallopers...huge risk buying expensive yearlings, better off with bread butter and hoping for a champion

for example
  • result( trained by john moloney) $255,000
  • zyzxx ( as above) $450,000
both struggle to win races
 
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How good a start has Exceed And Excel made? Wilander and Exceedingly Good head the betting for the Blue Diamond and several others near the top. I think he stood for $55,000 in his first year. If he keeps this up he'll hit 6 figures quick enough. Will he get 3 year olds and older types? His best year was as a 3 year old.
 
my point about breeding speed and speed was a success with the blue diamond prelude winner of the fillies division

seinnas fury- by general nediym out of a mookta mare!! SPEED SPEED SPEED

i bloody backed it each way in its 1st start on melb cup day, only because of the mookta factor, and it ran well, but i personally didnt think it was up to that field on saturday
 

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