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Howard Moon said:
Has JJ done it?
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Depends what 'it' is.

While Rian Johnson's decision to sUbVeRt ExPeCtAtIoNs in TLJ resulted in a litany of bad choices, Abrams' total lack of world-building in TFA bears a lot of the blame for the general direction SW is going in - whether it was his choice or those of the executive(s) in charge.
 
The Speaker said:
Depends what 'it' is.

While Rian Johnson's decision to sUbVeRt ExPeCtAtIoNs in TLJ resulted in a litany of bad choices, Abrams' total lack of world-building in TFA bears a lot of the blame for the general direction SW is going in - whether it was his choice or those of the executive(s) in charge.
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I thought JJ did an ok job of raising questions people wanted answers to.
Knights of Ren
Who is Snoke?
Who is Rey?
Where did Luke go?
What happened to his students?
What went so wrong with Han and Leia?

It's just many of these were answered poorly (in the eyes of some) or slammed shut and meant nothing by the second film.

I feel that is the whole reason I was so letdown, I actually liked force awakens because it raised all these questions, then the second one gave (in my opinion) boring answers or told me that these things didn't matter and also took away parts of the meaning behind the originals with how certain characters ended up. Also Instead of giving me something to fill it that void that was left I was given some vague everyone can be special message and then nothing really to get me excited for the finale where it appears JJ is rehashing Return of the Jedi.

Im hopeful as mentioned before that the third will place it all in context and make it look better in hindsight. But I'm wary that for some reason we seem to have the emperor back, if handled badly it's just another thing that invalidates the triumph in the original trilogy.
 

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Mercurial89 said:
I thought JJ did an ok job of raising questions people wanted answers to.
Knights of Ren
Who is Snoke?
Who is Rey?
Where did Luke go?
What happened to his students?
What went so wrong with Han and Leia?

It's just many of these were answered poorly (in the eyes of some) or slammed shut and meant nothing by the second film.

I feel that is the whole reason I was so letdown, I actually liked force awakens because it raised all these questions, then the second one gave (in my opinion) boring answers or told me that these things didn't matter and also took away parts of the meaning behind the originals with how certain characters ended up. Also Instead of giving me something to fill it that void that was left I was given some vague everyone can be special message and then nothing really to get me excited for the finale where it appears JJ is rehashing Return of the Jedi.

Im hopeful as mentioned before that the third will place it all in context and make it look better in hindsight. But I'm wary that for some reason we seem to have the emperor back, if handled badly it's just another thing that invalidates the triumph in the original trilogy.
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I could see 'the Emperor' being the dark recesses of everybodies mind that you may be able to suppress for periods but never defeat... They wouldn't go down that type of ending would they? Non literal style... Oh it was all a dream ;)
 
Mercurial89 said:
I thought JJ did an ok job of raising questions people wanted answers to.
Knights of Ren
Who is Snoke?
Who is Rey?
Where did Luke go?
What happened to his students?
What went so wrong with Han and Leia?

It's just many of these were answered poorly (in the eyes of some) or slammed shut and meant nothing by the second film.

I feel that is the whole reason I was so letdown, I actually liked force awakens because it raised all these questions, then the second one gave (in my opinion) boring answers or told me that these things didn't matter and also took away parts of the meaning behind the originals with how certain characters ended up. Also Instead of giving me something to fill it that void that was left I was given some vague everyone can be special message and then nothing really to get me excited for the finale where it appears JJ is rehashing Return of the Jedi.

Im hopeful as mentioned before that the third will place it all in context and make it look better in hindsight. But I'm wary that for some reason we seem to have the emperor back, if handled badly it's just another thing that invalidates the triumph in the original trilogy.
Click to expand...

I agree that TFA raised a whole bunch of questions that could've had satisfying answers, but actually I don't think they were very good questions in the first place, because a lot of them were built on the back of an incomprehensible universe. The world of TFA literally doesn't make sense with what we see at the end of ROTJ - it's like a bizarro universe, and that was because Abrams chose to make a derivative film that would work for a franchise reboot (see Star Trek), rather than making part 7 of a 9 part epic.
 
The Speaker said:
I agree that TFA raised a whole bunch of questions that could've had satisfying answers, but actually I don't think they were very good questions in the first place, because a lot of them were built on the back of an incomprehensible universe. The world of TFA literally doesn't make sense with what we see at the end of ROTJ - it's like a bizarro universe, and that was because Abrams chose to make a derivative film that would work for a franchise reboot (see Star Trek), rather than making part 7 of a 9 part epic.
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I do agree it's why I think we now have this trilogy invalidating and even rehashing so much of what came before.
 
Mercurial89 said:
I thought JJ did an ok job of raising questions people wanted answers to.
Click to expand...
Asking interesting questions is the easier part, providing satisfying answers is the challenge. That's why, for example, the first season of Lost was excellent and the last was a trashfire, with a steady downhill gradient throughout. That magic JJ touch.
 
Isn't the biggest problem with episodes 7 and 8 that they are bland recreations of the same stories that have already happened before, a plagiarism with a few words changed that wouldn't fool the algorithim, with every cliche available thrown and CGI in place of any of the risks on a story line that would make it worth telling story of the "end of the saga" that was otherwise clearly wrapped up?

It's film making by numbers, identity politics substituted for a story line.
 
BrunoV said:
Isn't the biggest problem with episodes 7 and 8 that they are bland recreations of the same stories that have already happened before, a plagiarism with a few words changed that wouldn't fool the algorithim, with every cliche available thrown and CGI in place of any of the risks on a story line that would make it worth telling story of the "end of the saga" that was otherwise clearly wrapped up?

It's film making by numbers, identity politics substituted for a story line.
Click to expand...

Interestingly, Lucas mentioned in an interview that if he had made the sequel trilogy, it would have looked very different. Moreover, he had expected that Disney would take his ideas and use them for the movies - but instead they chose to almost completely ignore them. The whispers are that they did this so that they would've have to pay him anything residual for the use of his characters, which may have been part of the deal.
 
BrunoV said:
Isn't the biggest problem with episodes 7 and 8 that they are bland recreations of the same stories that have already happened before, a plagiarism with a few words changed that wouldn't fool the algorithim, with every cliche available thrown and CGI in place of any of the risks on a story line that would make it worth telling story of the "end of the saga" that was otherwise clearly wrapped up?

It's film making by numbers, identity politics substituted for a story line.
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Welcome to Hollywood.
 
I can see the “re-creation” in TFA. It reminds me of ep 4.

But TLJ... I dunno. I don’t see the parallels there. I thought that’s why everyone hated it.

Make up your damned minds.
 

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DapperJong said:
I can see the “re-creation” in TFA. It reminds me of ep 4.

But TLJ... I dunno. I don’t see the parallels there. I thought that’s why everyone hated it.

Make up your damned minds.
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I was going to say that, but there are certainly parallels with Episode V, visually (particularly not-Hoth) and plot-wise (Luke=Yoda, planet=Dagobah). Johnson just sUbVeRtEd ExPeCtAtIoNs with how he used those elements.
GUMBLETRON said:
His ideas were also mad.
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He acknowledged that a lot of people would've hated them, but it doesn't matter - it's his brainchild. No-one knows it and has thought about it more than he has.
 
The Speaker said:
I was going to say that, but there are certainly parallels with Episode V, visually (particularly not-Hoth) and plot-wise (Luke=Yoda, planet=Dagobah). Johnson just sUbVeRtEd ExPeCtAtIoNs with how he used those elements
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Sure there are, there’s always gonna be parallels in good v evil films. But beyond those surface level type things, I tend to call play on. If you could show me that acts 1 to whatever fell within the same time frame as another film, then I would be just disgusted literally vomiting up my popcorn in the cinema.
 
DapperJong said:
Sure there are, there’s always gonna be parallels in good v evil films. But beyond those surface level type things, I tend to call play on. If you could show me that acts 1 to whatever fell within the same time frame as another film, then I would be just disgusted literally vomiting up my popcorn in the cinema.
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I'm sure you would.

In any case, I think you can argue that TLJ is only derivative in parts based on what was given to them in TFA anyway.
 
The Speaker said:
Interestingly, Lucas mentioned in an interview that if he had made the sequel trilogy, it would have looked very different. Moreover, he had expected that Disney would take his ideas and use them for the movies - but instead they chose to almost completely ignore them. The whispers are that they did this so that they would've have to pay him anything residual for the use of his characters, which may have been part of the deal.
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I don't know that Lucas lost that much in the ideas department so it's a shame he didn't see it out.

As much of a dogs breakfast as 1 to 3 are it's a problem of structure and not vision or ideas.

It really just needed someone to be able to strip a lot of the battle scenes back and focus more on developing the more interesting parts of the plot, possibly exploring the Dark Side in more depth (with interaction between the Sith) and definitely more of the plotting that enabled Sidious to assume control.
 
BrunoV said:
I don't know that Lucas lost that much in the ideas department so it's a shame he didn't see it out.

As much of a dogs breakfast as 1 to 3 are it's a problem of structure and not vision or ideas.

It really just needed someone to be able to strip a lot of the battle scenes back and focus more on developing the more interesting parts of the plot, possibly exploring the Dark Side in more depth (with interaction between the Sith) and definitely more of the plotting that enabled Sidious to assume control.
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But that would have bored the s**t out of the kids, all the senate and viceroy talk. That don't sell toys! Who is this aimed at again??
 
BrunoV said:
I don't know that Lucas lost that much in the ideas department so it's a shame he didn't see it out.

As much of a dogs breakfast as 1 to 3 are it's a problem of structure and not vision or ideas.

It really just needed someone to be able to strip a lot of the battle scenes back and focus more on developing the more interesting parts of the plot, possibly exploring the Dark Side in more depth (with interaction between the Sith) and definitely more of the plotting that enabled Sidious to assume control.
Click to expand...

I think TPM was a mistake, timeline wise. It's too early of a start. Episode I should have been just before AOTC, and finished as the Clone Wars start. You can keep some of the pieces of TPM - Maul, Qui-Gon, Anakin entering the Temple late - but rearrange them, and leave stuff like the Naboo blockade as a little bit of historical dialogue. Anakin should've entered the temple as a teenager/nearly adult. Maul and Dooku should've appeared to have been the Sith duo. Obi-Wan should spend most of the film chasing clues about the clones, which never really went anywhere in AOTC, but comes to the rescue of Qui-Gon and Anakin, too late to save the former. He can then blame Anakin for Qui-Gon's death to some degree, creating a further tension between them that Sidious takes advantage of.

If you keep the Naboo blockade as a historical event, then introduce that as the place where Padme met Obi-Wan, which also creates romantic tension with Anakin (who can become enamoured with her much more believably in this movie, and then have the marriage take place in the new episode II). This makes his interpretation of her betrayal in III more understandable. Anakin should have three primary relationships: brother figure Obi-Wan, wife Padme, father figure Palpatine. Obi-Wan should be suspicious of Palpatine's motives from the start, and Palpatine doing his best to make Anakin distrust Obi-Wan. Padme should trust Palpatine at first, but over the three films become increasingly wary and eventually side with Obi-Wan instead, fueling Anakin's 'betrayal' narrative further.

The basic pieces are there, they just weren't put together well.
 
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On a similar but unrelated topic I was watching a new hope yesterday with the boy, I was noticing Lucas efforts to develop the characters and have a story arc of sorts but what stuck out to me was Luke all forlorn leaning on the table after Obi Wan had been killed.... "I just can't believe he's gone". Like he had this long standing bond with the bloke... By my calculations (it's not easy knowing day from night in space) but he only met him maybe 2 days prior? I mean from first being in Obi Wans cave to hitting mos icely to flying toward the Death Star, sneaking around a bit then flying out. I'm saying 2 days max... Ergo he only just met the bloke, hardly enough time to be so forlorn... I just can't believe he's gone! Sniff

Reckon they could have used longer to create a bond, maybe luke used to visit him often when out at the tosce station looking for power converters, or something.
 
Howard Moon said:
On a similar but unrelated topic I was watching a new hope yesterday with the boy, I was noticing Lucas efforts to develop the characters and have a story arc of sorts but what stuck out to me was Luke all forlorn leaning on the table after Obi Wan had been killed.... "I just can't believe he's gone". Like he had this long standing bond with the bloke... By my calculations (it's not easy knowing day from night in space) but he only met him maybe 2 days prior? I mean from first being in Obi Wans cave to hitting mos icely to flying toward the Death Star, sneaking around a bit then flying out. I'm saying 2 days max... Ergo he only just met the bloke, hardly enough time to be so forlorn... I just can't believe he's gone! Sniff

Reckon they could have used longer to create a bond, maybe luke used to visit him often when out at the tosce station looking for power converters, or something.
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If it was any other character it'd be picked up on much more, but Luke is just the kind of person who you can actually believe would feel that way. After all, he thought there was still good in Darth Vader.
 
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