Coaching Staff Eye on our Coaching (Ratten, Lade, Batchelor, Slater sign on)

[Saintbloke]

I will give you the tip. It wouldn't have mattered who we picked yesterday. We were beaten badly and that has little to do with the coaching. Its a season where its going to happen a bit to every side.

I don't mind us going down in a tough encounter against quality opposition, but to play one of the worse second halves of footy for a couple of years, and toss the towel in for the last quarter when it got tough is not a throwaway thing...it reflects pretty badly on the coach and his leadership group. Richo and co. should rightly be under a lot of pressure to get it right against the Dogs and make sure we don't fall back to the ways of a couple of seasons ago.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Over the journey, I think Richo has shown a tendency to prioritise picking personnel over picking for structure: he'll pick players who are performing over being locked into, say, 2 tall forwards, a 3rd tall, and a couple of small crumbers. He's happy to go in with 3 smalls, or 1 tall, or whatever, if they are the best players available. He trusts that he can wangle the structures to make it work, as long as he's got the best available players in the squad out there.

As a person who highly values those structures, that does tend to frustrate me, immensely. And I'll tend to focus on that after a loss. But I'm trying to understand things from Richo's perspective.

... I still think he's wrong, though.

 

[VDS66]

Surely you have stated objectives for each game. You then pick the players you think will help achieve those objectives.

We win - genius. We lose - Insert theory here.

 

[Moorabbin Ghost]

We lost so this week our coaches are s**t.

Don't think that's the case at all. I think the point is that when our plan A falls apart in certain games there's absolutely no response from the coaches box.
There's no positional changes to try and rectify issues, there's no change of tempo to slow a teams run.
And while I have been mostly happy with selection this year (for the first time under Richo's watch), we got it all wrong on Saturday. We were missing a genuine defensive forward and we were way to slow and one dimensional through the midfield.
The biggest issue for mine though is our second ruck. While Gilbo has battled manfully the last few weeks, our second ruck has been an issue since the start of 2014 with no genuine solution in sight. That's not good enough.

 

[StCicatriz]

I categorically agree with you that the selections were very misguided. But everybody makes mistakes. I'm not of the mind that these mistakes have got to sacking territory.

Please, can we find some kind of middle way, between recognition of the coaches' mistakes, and wanting them fired?

But I'm not suggesting richo gets fired

More pointing out areas of concern in the coaching that need to be rectified. Reality is richo has 18 months on his contract and were not going to sack him this early without a bigger body of evidence. In the end he could adapt and prove me wrong

Its very early

 

[Saintbloke]

Don't think that's the case at all. I think the point is that when our plan A falls apart in certain games there's absolutely no response from the coaches box.
There's no positional changes to try and rectify issues, there's no change of tempo to slow a teams run.
And while I have been mostly happy with selection this year (for the first time under Richo's watch), we got it all wrong on Saturday. We were missing a genuine defensive forward and we were way to slow and one dimensional through the midfield.
The biggest issue for mine though is our second ruck. While Gilbo has battled manfully the last few weeks, our second ruck has been an issue since the start of 2014 with no genuine solution in sight. That's not good enough.

Yeah this is a worry, and the first ruck is problem now Hickey is out- Longer is a battler at best. I just wonder what's happened to the development of Pierce..here's a young bloke who got a game, then that was it, gone.
I feel that Richo has some plan in his head that players must fit into an inflexible mould for his version of an ideal player, and if you don't fit exactly, you don't get a game- maybe it's a checklist on Excel with a formula, and if you miss one of the ticks, no game. I do worry that some naturally skilled players are being squashed into this mould at the expense of their natural attributes- why they were recruited in the first place.

 

[StCicatriz]

Don't think that's the case at all. I think the point is that when our plan A falls apart in certain games there's absolutely no response from the coaches box.
There's no positional changes to try and rectify issues, there's no change of tempo to slow a teams run.
And while I have been mostly happy with selection this year (for the first time under Richo's watch), we got it all wrong on Saturday. We were missing a genuine defensive forward and we were way to slow and one dimensional through the midfield.
The biggest issue for mine though is our second ruck. While Gilbo has battled manfully the last few weeks, our second ruck has been an issue since the start of 2014 with no genuine solution in sight. That's not good enough.

All wrong for the 2nd week in a row

Imagine what Bolton would have done to us with a half decent list. Jesus.

 

[The Enemy Within]

Any thoughts on sacking Richo is ludicrous I do believe it's time for Richo to freshen up his assistants though & try and get a different prospectus on the game from outside of the bubble.

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

I like Richo and I think the club and players have taken several steps forward under his guidance.
Not sure how much pressure he would be under though if we don't make finals this year. Looking at the rest of the draw, I don't think we will.

Would be under a fair bit of pressure if we didn't make finals next season too though.

I don't / can't analyse it too much with stats / structures and so on, I just look at how we play and use a gut-feel. I have a stomach-ache.

 

[Moorabbin Ghost]

Any thoughts on sacking Richo is ludicrous I do believe it's time for Richo to freshen up his assistants though & try and get a different prospectus on the game from outside of the bubble.

I don't think anybody is suggesting Richo gets sacked. What I do think supporters with a real eye for the game are now noticing is our lack of a response when things aren't going our way tactically or when a game requires a tempo change.
Team selection is always a touchy subject because everybody sees players differently but I do think Richo has a touch of the Ross Lyon's about him in that he looks at what some (non star) players cant bring to the side instead of what they can. Acres is a perfect example. I don't think you'd find too many supporters or footy observers saying he shouldn't now be in our full time mid rotations. Instead he's spending more time at half back and half forward than through the midfield while less talented foot soldiers have a free pass in there.
I find it amusing that when Richo was desperately trying to turn JB into a mid that a lot in here were calling out for him to be left at half forward. Look at Jack's form since he was moved back to that high half forward role.
Richo is our guy, but I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting the same type of improvement in the box that Richo himself expects from the players on field.

 

[VDS66]

Don't think that's the case at all. I think the point is that when our plan A falls apart in certain games there's absolutely no response from the coaches box.
There's no positional changes to try and rectify issues, there's no change of tempo to slow a teams run.
And while I have been mostly happy with selection this year (for the first time under Richo's watch), we got it all wrong on Saturday. We were missing a genuine defensive forward and we were way to slow and one dimensional through the midfield.
The biggest issue for mine though is our second ruck. While Gilbo has battled manfully the last few weeks, our second ruck has been an issue since the start of 2014 with no genuine solution in sight. That's not good enough.

2ND ruck? Don't think we have sorted our first ruck TBH.

We will need that forward who can ruck. None of ours currently can.

 

[StCicatriz]

Any thoughts on sacking Richo is ludicrous I do believe it's time for Richo to freshen up his assistants though & try and get a different prospectus on the game from outside of the bubble.

i really hope i'm not being taken out of context here. but just incase:

I'M NOT SUGGESTING RICHO GETS SACKED!

 

[The Enemy Within]

I don't think anybody is suggesting Richo gets sacked. What I do think supporters with a real eye for the game are now noticing is our lack of a response when things aren't going our way tactically or when a game requires a tempo change.
Team selection is always a touchy subject because everybody sees players differently but I do think Richo has a touch of the Ross Lyon's about him in that he looks at what some (non star) players cant bring to the side instead of what they can. Acres is a perfect example. I don't think you'd find too many supporters or footy observers saying he shouldn't now be in our full time mid rotations. Instead he's spending more time at half back and half forward than through the midfield while less talented foot soldiers have a free pass in there.
I find it amusing that when Richo was desperately trying to turn JB into a mid that a lot in here were calling out for him to be left at half forward. Look at Jack's form since he was moved back to that high half forward role.
Richo is our guy, but I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting the same type of improvement in the box that Richo himself expects from the players on field.

Agree with the statement I'm still adamant we need some changes in the box no doubt & hopefully we can get a few fresh faces in there to help & challenge Richo when needed.

 

[borderbarry]

What is going to be lost if Holmes was used as first ruck? Argueably he is our best tap ruckman, like Longer he cant mark, but he does tackle and get into contests more than Bill. Cant see much downside in giving him a few games.

 

[Persevering Saint]

i really hope i'm not being taken out of context here. but just incase:

I'M NOT SUGGESTING RICHO GETS SACKED!

Okay, so you're saying you want him fired, we get it.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Reflect, if you will, how we'd be if Bevo had come in as Director of Coaching, as originally planned...

...

 

[The Enemy Within]

Just on coaching why do we persist in coming out with 4 or 5 minutes to go before the game it doesn't seem to of helped us get a flying start that I can see, why not go back to the conventional way & do a pre warm up prior to games most opposition are out 10 to 12 minutes prior to a game .

 

[VDS66]

I don't think anybody is suggesting Richo gets sacked. What I do think supporters with a real eye for the game are now noticing is our lack of a response when things aren't going our way tactically or when a game requires a tempo change.
Team selection is always a touchy subject because everybody sees players differently but I do think Richo has a touch of the Ross Lyon's about him in that he looks at what some (non star) players cant bring to the side instead of what they can. Acres is a perfect example. I don't think you'd find too many supporters or footy observers saying he shouldn't now be in our full time mid rotations. Instead he's spending more time at half back and half forward than through the midfield while less talented foot soldiers have a free pass in there.
I find it amusing that when Richo was desperately trying to turn JB into a mid that a lot in here were calling out for him to be left at half forward. Look at Jack's form since he was moved back to that high half forward role.
Richo is our guy, but I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting the same type of improvement in the box that Richo himself expects from the players on field.

How much of this "out of position" about giving the kids a more rounded game?

 

[saint_]

Just on coaching why do we persist in coming out with 4 or 5 minutes to go before the game it doesn't seem to of helped us get a flying start that I can see, why not go back to the conventional way & do a pre warm up prior to games most opposition are out 10 to 12 minutes prior to a game .

I watched Sydney 5 minutes before the start of the game and thought they'd going to start the game on fire. They looked primed, doing quick hands etc. We came out about 3 minutes before the start of the game, did the sprint then after that all our players were having a chat just not a care in the world. Was amateurish. First 5 minutes Sydney go up 13 points.

 

[Moorabbin Ghost]

How much of this "out of position" about giving the kids a more rounded game?

In my opinion....not a lot. I think it's just that Acres (for example) deserves to be playing senior footy. Richo just doesn't trust the kids enough to play him through the middle before Dunstan etc.
it's a bit of a defeatist attitude in my opinion. We need to cut the umbilical cord now with Billings, Acres, Steele, Paddy etc and just let these kids go out and play footy and learn from their mistakes.
Don't limit what they can do because we are scared of mistakes.

 

[PoppedCorn]

Gives me the shits tbh
There will be no gf this year let's be honest, we have prime possie for picks or a free agent......so play the kids in the middle ffs
Get the games and the experience in the middle under the belt now
That way if a free agent of high quality comes in that's obviously going to be a decent outside or inside/outside mid we at least have more talent that's had some experience in the guts
Right now we have seb and stuv doing the clearance work and steele the grunt work
Get some freshness in there as well ffs

You build a tank by doing the activity, not by not doing it

 

[The Enemy Within]

I watched Sydney 5 minutes before the start of the game and thought they'd going to start the game on fire. They looked primed, doing quick hands etc. We came out about 3 minutes before the start of the game, did the sprint then after that all our players were having a chat just not a care in the world. Was amateurish. First 5 minutes Sydney go up 13 points.

Spot on it set the tone of the game, sat us on our @rses early

 

[gringo2011]

Massive blunder not persisting with Minch -we need him to develop with game time, and missed his nip and disposal yesterday. I think the Swans must have been rubbing their hands with glee at selection time when it was Bruce out, Paddy in and Minch out...let's run 'em off their feet!

Coupled with no one to carry the ball out of defence it was a shocking selection error. Roberson was the only guy who really able to bring the ball out so they just had to sit on him.

 

[Mowman]

i really hope i'm not being taken out of context here. but just incase:

I'M NOT SUGGESTING RICHO GETS SACKED!

Why would you want him sacked

 

[freebloke]

To be fair to Richo, the ruck situation is out of his hands.

List management is driven by others, e.g. Bains. In the end, the options Richo has are Hickey, Longer, Holmes and Pierce (with Marshall a possible Ruck Forward).

Now, if the list management team didn't chase Zac Smith, Leunberger, Callum Sinclair, Nankervis, etc. over the years, it's not Richo's fault. He's just playing with the cards he's been dealt.

Frankly, the list management team has done well, e.g. Hawthorn first round pick, Steele, etc. But at the same time, they've ignored the ruck situation since Pelchen last touched it, and stuck with the same ol'. On top of that, they gave a contract to Pierce for 2018. They really need to get a move on, and, move Longer on for a better first ruck, with Hickey and Holmes as backup. Marshall has shown signs to be a good forward ruck and he should be tested with a debut game.

Half Back flank - Again, I think Richo's been playing with the cards he's dealt with. Saints desperately need a line breaker like Shaw / JJ. Savage is not the answer, as he doesn't defend well or kick well enough. He just kicks it long. Zak Jones should be a priority target!

Match Day - Clearly this is the weakest area. Just a massive groupthink going on there and they need new ideas. It's all about the contest, and I think some fresh air is needed. Lonie does not impact the contest, but partly it's because the saints know only one gameplan - be second to the ball and tackle, tackle, tackle. The forward coaching needs a big tune up. Also, the coaching does not deal well with teams which control the ball a lot, e.g. Melbourne, Carlton, Sydney, i.e. they just chip the ball around and maintain possession and then run it forward in space. Hence, those teams don't get tackled a lot (ie Melbourne and Carlton), taking away St Kilda's tackle strength. Hawthorn whenever faced with a team like that, would immediately man up, changing their style to man on man in a flash. Something that this coaching team needs the player to train on.