Fact vs Fiction

Status
Not open for further replies.

lickmerocks

Premiership Player
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Posts
3,668
Likes
4,063
Location
heaven
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Bushrangers, Kings,
Thread starter #1
(apologies to the mods if they feel this should be attached to the medical/fitness staff thread)

Since 08 we have taken one blow after another. The footy gods must have decided we won before our time and needed us to cop a few years of pain to make us realise how lucky we were to win a Flag.

Those that have been following my recent posts will know that I have been critical of our medical team and have been told to put up or shut up so I thought I would dig a little deeper and see where we are really at.

I pulled the 08 team up and decided to look at every player that played that day and where they are at now. From that side I honestly can say that only Cyril Rioli and possibly to a small extent Renouf have moved forward as footballers. Many have been crippled with injuries while some have stagnated or gone backwards for different reasons.

The most alarming fact was that the following players were going to be the next young stars coming through for the club waiting in the wings for the opportunity. Mcglynn, Dowler Tuck Muston, Bailey, Murphy, Taylor and Thorp and Kennedy:eek:

Anyway here is the side and I will let you make your own judgements on where we are currently at with our playing list.

Perhaps when you honestly consider where we are currently at you can understand why the club recruited Gibson, Hooper and Burgoyne but I cant seem to get past that so many people belive our medical team has nothing to answer for.

Something just doesnt fit.

B: Stephen Gilham, Trent Croad, Brent Guerra
HB: Rick Ladson, Luke Hodge, Grand Birchall
C: Chance Bateman, Sam Mitchell, Jordan Lewis
HF: Michael Osborne, Lance Franklin, Cyril Rioli
F: Mark Williams, Jarryd Roughead, Campbell Brown
Foll: Robert Campbell, Brad Sewell, Shane Crawford
Int: Stuart Dew, Xavier Ellis, Brent Renouf, Clinton Young
Emg: Tom Murphy, Simon Taylor, Travis Tuck
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Henry Jr

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
May 3, 2006
Posts
9,831
Likes
801
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#6
(apologies to the mods if they feel this should be attached to the medical/fitness staff thread)

Only part of this deserves the medical thread. But would be lost in the logic and examples in there.

Since 08 we have taken one blow after another. The footy gods must have decided we won before our time and needed us to cop a few years of pain to make us realise how lucky we were to win a Flag.

Those that have been following my recent posts will know that I have been critical of our medical team and have been told to put up or shut up so I thought I would dig a little deeper and see where we are really at.

This will be good.

I pulled the 08 team up and decided to look at every player that played that day and where they are at now. From that side I honestly can say that only Cyril Rioli and possibly to a small extent Renouf have moved forward as footballers. Many have been crippled with injuries while some have stagnated or gone backwards for different reasons.

This is form and not injury related. Thought you were arguing the medical team (which should be in the medical thread).

The most alarming fact was that the following players were going to be the next young stars coming through for the club waiting in the wings for the opportunity. Mcglynn, Dowler Tuck Muston, Bailey, Murphy, Taylor and Thorp and Kennedy:eek:

Mcglynn and Kennedy left as they had better contract offers.

Thorp was delisted for various issues not made available to us members.


Anyway here is the side and I will let you make your own judgements on where we are currently at with our playing list.

Perhaps when you honestly consider where we are currently at you can understand why the club recruited Gibson, Hooper and Burgoyne but I cant seem to get past that so many people belive our medical team has nothing to answer for.

Something just doesnt fit.

B: Stephen Gilham, Trent Croad, Brent Guerra
HB: Rick Ladson, Luke Hodge, Grand Birchall
C: Chance Bateman, Sam Mitchell, Jordan Lewis
HF: Michael Osborne, Lance Franklin, Cyril Rioli
F: Mark Williams, Jarryd Roughead, Campbell Brown
Foll: Robert Campbell, Brad Sewell, Shane Crawford
Int: Stuart Dew, Xavier Ellis, Brent Renouf, Clinton Young
Emg: Tom Murphy, Simon Taylor, Travis Tuck
Above bolded players have either retired or traded to other clubs.

Besides Taylor and Tuck, all of the above players are named to play for us this week.
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Posts
266
Likes
53
Location
G-Town
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#8
Ok - so there are 5 that are no longer playing/at the club.
Dew, Crawf, Croady & Bob Have retired and Williams is at another club and is out this week with a foot injury, not sure that is the medical staff at HFC fault though????
Sorry, but i don't get what you're getting at either.
 

Hawker_Ant

Club Legend
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Posts
1,591
Likes
11
Location
Darwin
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#9
Croad's foot blew up in the 08 GF. Brownie was playing on drugs too. That's about all I can lay on the medical staff. But it got us a premiership, and they don't fall off trees all that frequently, not as often as cats regurgitate furballs anyway.

The loss of Croad has left a big hole down back that we've yet to fill. Hammies, broken jaws, twisted ankles in training... life happens. Just have to deal with it.
 
Joined
Jun 19, 2007
Posts
32,645
Likes
34,695
Location
On the south side now
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
nil
Moderator #10
The most alarming fact was that the following players were going to be the next young stars coming through for the club waiting in the wings for the opportunity. Mcglynn, Dowler Tuck Muston, Bailey, Murphy, Taylor and Thorp and Kennedy:eek:
For this to be the most alarming (and I guess by extensin important) fact why doesn't it have anything to do with Medical staff?
 

lickmerocks

Premiership Player
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Posts
3,668
Likes
4,063
Location
heaven
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Bushrangers, Kings,
Thread starter #11
Yep all just bad luck for the past 18 months. No mis management here at all.


Dew continued to do hamstrings in 09. wasted 09
Gilham (back too early from knee injury and re injured) wasted 09
Young (back too early and reinjured) wasted 09
Lewis (overweight in 09)
Franklin (overweight in 09)
Hodge (overweight in 09)


2010 so far.
Hooper hamstring 4 games
Mitchell hamstring 3 games
Burgoyne hamstring 4 games
Gibson hamstring 12 games
Tuck re-injured at training?????
Dowler re-injured at training????

Take the brown and gold goggles off for one minute.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Cheeseman

Club Legend
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Posts
2,243
Likes
28
Location
Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Box Hill
#12
Ok, so now that you've made this a strictly medical/fitness staff based argument, shouldn't this have been posted elsewhere? or have you already tried that?

I'll take my brown and gold glasses off if you take the bee out of your bonnet, you go first.
 

go hawks!!!

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Posts
5,126
Likes
548
Location
5km Radius to Waverley
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Box Hill Hawks
#13
come on man, get over it you have posted this in its dedicated thread 'the medical/fitness debate' i am getting sick of the negativity

move on....really, we have the cattle, we are not really missing that many key players and if we play with intensity (like st kilda) we will beat everyone.

this blame game is not in the 'spirit' of the game and frankly i am sick of reading it on this board
 

lickmerocks

Premiership Player
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Posts
3,668
Likes
4,063
Location
heaven
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Bushrangers, Kings,
Thread starter #14
Ok, so now that you've made this a strictly medical/fitness staff based argument, shouldn't this have been posted elsewhere? or have you already tried that?

I'll take my brown and gold glasses off if you take the bee out of your bonnet, you go first.

Just providing the facts Cheesy. Lots of debate about whats wrong with us as a club.

If you look at that 08 side its easy to understand why we are sheriff of struggle town. We have gone backwards massively.
 
Joined
Jun 19, 2007
Posts
32,645
Likes
34,695
Location
On the south side now
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
nil
Moderator #15
Yep all just bad luck for the past 18 months. No mis management here at all.


Dew continued to do hamstrings in 09. wasted 09
Gilham (back too early from knee injury and re injured) wasted 09
Young (back too early and reinjured) wasted 09
Lewis (overweight in 09)
Franklin (overweight in 09)
Hodge (overweight in 09)


2010 so far.
Hooper hamstring 4 games
Mitchell hamstring 3 games
Burgoyne hamstring 4 games
Gibson hamstring 12 games
Tuck re-injured at training?????
Dowler re-injured at training????

Take the brown and gold goggles off for one minute.
come on Limerocks, let's go for a bit of balance here.

1. Dew was 120kgs when he arrived at the club. That actually makes him eligible for the biggest loser. A year out of the game usually results in hamstring injuries, regardless of the player. A year without match intensity almost inevitably causes it. But somehow the club managed him through to a massive GF performance that goes down as one of the greatest 5 minute patches of play OF ALL TIME. Medical staff WIN!

2. Youngy - stuffed his ankle and had all sorts of extensive complications from thereon. There was talk of a hip injury that came with it. Many thought it was curtains on his career, somehow here we are. Youngy is back on the park. Honestly, after a year out of the game you can expect a hamstirng injury in a week or two. If not, you can give the medical team another pat on the back.

3. Croad. You can't say this bloke was rushed through. They nursed him through 2009 as slowly as they possibly could. They held him back from training loads that he wanted to do for months on end to try and give him the required base to move to the next stage, but unfortunately the bone didn't knit together well enough to take a full training load. I honestly can't fault the staff here. It's annoying as crap, but I can't fault them.

4. Bailey and Muston. How the hell do you get a guy whose had 2 knee recos onto the park? Ask Hawthorn. Somehow they got both of these guys onto the park after repeat occurences of the nastiest and most unavoidable injury of all. Bailey actually dominated his second game until the OTHER bastard knee fell over. Medical WIN WIN

5. Dowler. Shattered pelvis. Rehabed into a player that was performing more than adequately in his first 10 games. Medical win. A rolled ankle is not the fault of the medical team though.


The scary stat for mine is that every single player we've picked up from opposition clubs has had hamstring injuries. That's a troubling trend. But while we're throwing criticisms around let's try and balance it with the great things they've done too.
 

Roddy27

Big Footy Padawan
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Posts
3,178
Likes
3,097
Location
Rosebery
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#16
Yep all just bad luck for the past 18 months. No mis management here at all.


Dew continued to do hamstrings in 09. wasted 09
Gilham (back too early from knee injury and re injured) wasted 09
Young (back too early and reinjured) wasted 09
Lewis (overweight in 09)
Franklin (overweight in 09)
Hodge (overweight in 09)


2010 so far.
Hooper hamstring 4 games
Mitchell hamstring 3 games
Burgoyne hamstring 4 games
Gibson hamstring 12 games
Tuck re-injured at training?????
Dowler re-injured at training????

Take the brown and gold goggles off for one minute.
check your facts dude...you're saying things and relating things to the medical staff which either arent related or have been misrepresented to prove your...um... your point... everyone gets angry when we lose- but where the club is at now is infinitely more complex than just the performance of a medical team (which has success stories left right and centre...)
 

Henry Jr

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
May 3, 2006
Posts
9,831
Likes
801
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#18
Guess no one was reading his posts in the medical debate (hence I said debate) so he thought he'd drop a thread on the main board to try get some sympathy votes.

Nice try LMR - yet another failure......
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Posts
30
Likes
0
Location
with Strop
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#19
check your facts dude...you're saying things and relating things to the medical staff which either arent related or have been misrepresented to prove your...um... your point... everyone gets angry when we lose- but where the club is at now is infinitely more complex than just the performance of a medical team (which has success stories left right and centre...)
well said, I could add so much to this but could not be bothered...This guy has 3/4 the info incorrect anyway. write your letter to the club and enjoy the next 10 years of finals at hawthorn...and accept you are going to have hiccups along the way.
 

CaptainHodgey

All Australian
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Posts
712
Likes
48
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#20
Look no one has enough medical or training information from the club to win this debate and until by some sort of miracle that info comes out, this argument is simply a glorified bitch slapping fight.

No one will ever be able to prove whether its mismanagement or bad luck without a lot more information so why even try? Everyone is going around in circles and there can be no possible way to get an answer.
 

TAITA

Premium Gold
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Posts
7,926
Likes
7,260
Location
A step ahead
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#21
Ultimately LMR, no one is doing 'brown and gold goggle' handstands about our injuries, and they aren't jumping up and down and doing backflips about the fact that some of our youngsters haven't come along at the rate we would have hoped.

However, and I have said this ad nauseum, to just go pointing the finger at the most simplistic option and (not in your case, but in others) disingenuously, reeks of foolishness and retribution.

Unless you can show conclusively that the F&C team are letting us down with some evidence to back it up - some proof of negligence or ineptitude - as opposed to just mindless comparisons and assumptions that have no bearing or basis in fact, I'm afraid you are just pissing in the wind.

And making a bit of a goose out of yourself in the process.
 

Roddy27

Big Footy Padawan
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Posts
3,178
Likes
3,097
Location
Rosebery
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#22
Look no one has enough medical or training information from the club to win this debate and until by some sort of miracle that info comes out, this argument is simply a glorified bitch slapping fight.

No one will ever be able to prove whether its mismanagement or bad luck without a lot more information so why even try? Everyone is going around in circles and there can be no possible way to get an answer.
Mate- i could accept the plausability of what you are saying if the evidence presented to me and the board was in fact correct and reasoned through properly. The issue here is not whether we have the right information, or who has inside sources or who is correct! The issue is that the OP provides a too simplistic, cursory, naive, and superficial undertaking of a) why he/she thinks our team has gone backwards, and b) that the reason for this is ONLY mismanagement without acknowledgement- AT THE VERY LEAST- of the other components that make up the whole of a football team. There are other posters on here with medical knowledge who provide GREAT INSIGHT into the medical staff and injuries and make no presumptions or accusations as to fault as things are always more complex than what we know...
 

lickmerocks

Premiership Player
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Posts
3,668
Likes
4,063
Location
heaven
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Bushrangers, Kings,
Thread starter #23
Guess no one was reading his posts in the medical debate (hence I said debate) so he thought he'd drop a thread on the main board to try get some sympathy votes.

Nice try LMR - yet another failure......

Henry you have been warned once about getting antsy so please calm down and stick to the debate if thats possible or you risk being carded. (just kidding boss)

I dont require any sympathy votes.

Its a football forum and I dont cry myself to sleep at night over it and not bothered if my opinion is a minority. In fact I am only posting because there is nothing on t.v and my missus is at work.

I quite like the fact that these threads actually give an insight to the passion that there is out there.

I prefer to keep away form threads such as "Is Cyril the next Garry Ablett" or some of the beauties that were floating around about Buddy recently.

I keep reading theories about our game plan being stuffed, why Buddy is not firing etc etc etc.

By putting the 08 team up and making reference to one player actually moving forward points to a whole lot of issues as to why this is.

See the one thing I do is listen and watch our coaching staff very closely because they give away all the informantion that is required.

After the Dogs game Clarkson made reference to our injury list at least 4 times in the after match press conference. You keep saying there is no problem but those in the know clearly think differently.

I look forward to the end of the season and an apology from you when the changes occur.

cheers.

LMR
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Posts
30
Likes
0
Location
with Strop
AFL Club
Hawthorn
#24
Mate- i could accept the plausability of what you are saying if the evidence presented to me and the board was in fact correct and reasoned through properly. The issue here is not whether we have the right information, or who has inside sources or who is correct! The issue is that the OP provides a too simplistic, cursory, naive, and superficial undertaking of a) why he/she thinks our team has gone backwards, and b) that the reason for this is ONLY mismanagement without acknowledgement- AT THE VERY LEAST- of the other components that make up the whole of a football team. There are other posters on here with medical knowledge who provide GREAT INSIGHT into the medical staff and injuries and make no presumptions or accusations as to fault as things are always more complex than what we know...
you are correct my friend.
 
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Posts
94,305
Likes
105,682
Location
Witness Protection
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
ōllamaliztli
Admin #25
Look no one has enough medical or training information from the club to win this debate and until by some sort of miracle that info comes out, this argument is simply a glorified bitch slapping fight.
I'm not quite so sure that there are people on the medical thread who don't have that sort of information.

In the medical thread I'm not point-scoring or looking for a winner, a reasoned dialogue is what I was hoping for. As a bonus we got some fantastic insights from posters who are obviously involved in either the field, at a club or both.

I was sick of the slanging and spilling over into other threads. I felt it was time to elevate the dialogue, put up or shut up.

And I don't think, for the most part, it has been a bitch slapping fight.

No one will ever be able to prove whether its mismanagement or bad luck without a lot more information so why even try? Everyone is going around in circles and there can be no possible way to get an answer.
There aren't many thread on BF where you get a definitive answer on anything. As for information, many people have put forward some very interesting and in-depth viewpoints. It's been great reading.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom