Opinion False Dawn

[Roachy8]

confirmed by club

When?

 

[tigertaskforce]

When?

fri night at supporters group function in adel post match

 

[Roachy8]

fri night at supporters group function in adel post match

K

 

[aislegi]

Jesus aislegi, I reckon when you go outside on a summers day black clouds rush from every corner of the planet to cover you in a 1 kilometer radius

In the spirit of optimism, does anyone know what the league record is for most consecutive finals appearances without winning one?

 

[Tigerforlife78]

In the spirit of optimism, does anyone know what the league record is for most consecutive finals appearances without winning one?

Im neither optimist or pessimist about our season atm, Im just waiting for when our season ends be it granny win, missing the 8 or anything in between and then forming an opinion about where our team rates for the 2015 season. Anything else is kinda premature is all

 

[aislegi]

The problem, as I see it, with the "optimist" position is that they won't put a time limit on it, ie. Regardless of whether we are going brilliantly or poorly, they will resort to nothingisms like "we're on track" or "we just need [forward/midfielder/backman/ruckman]" or (perhaps my all-time favourite) "mature bodies". The reality is that Hardwick and his cronies have had a dream run and achieved nothing. I think we can do better.

 

[Richo=Champion]

confirmed by club

Really explains the half arsed effort

 

[Tigerforlife78]

The problem, as I see it, with the "optimist" position is that they won't put a time limit on it, ie. Regardless of whether we are going brilliantly or poorly, they will resort to nothingisms like "we're on track" or "we just need [forward/midfielder/backman/ruckman]" or (perhaps my all-time favourite) "mature bodies". The reality is that Hardwick and his cronies have had a dream run and achieved nothing. I think we can do better.

To be fair unless your a Hawthorn supporter for the last 2 years every supporter from 17 other clubs thinks and or wishes thier team could do/had done better

 

[aislegi]

To be fair unless your a Hawthorn supporter for the last 2 years every supporter from 17 other clubs thinks and or wishes thier team could do/had done better

That's true - but I see a stack of clubs doing nice things. St Kilda have done a thorough rebuild. Dogs will have stars galore in years to come. Same for GWS and Gold Coast. What I see with us is a small number of really good players, a similar number of quite good players, and the odd good pick-up from another club - but nothing come through. Or at least no-one that I can see making into the kind of star is going to change our fortunes. I know I've said this before, but I'm struggling to think of a single star that Hardwick has created. That's just not good enough, I don't think. Not in six years.

 

[turtle27]

In the spirit of optimism, does anyone know what the league record is for most consecutive finals appearances without winning one?

West Coast lost three Elim in a row before making the GF

 

[turtle27]

That's true - but I see a stack of clubs doing nice things. St Kilda have done a thorough rebuild. Dogs will have stars galore in years to come. Same for GWS and Gold Coast. What I see with us is a small number of really good players, a similar number of quite good players, and the odd good pick-up from another club - but nothing come through. Or at least no-one that I can see making into the kind of star is going to change our fortunes. I know I've said this before, but I'm struggling to think of a single star that Hardwick has created. That's just not good enough, I don't think. Not in six years.

BEllis, Vlastuin, McIntosh, Lennon, CEllis.

 

[mopsy]

BEllis, Vlastuin, McIntosh, Lennon, CEllis.

Hmm B Ellis. Finds lots of easy ball which is about the only thing he is very good at. Personally i would happily trade him out while he has a high trade value. Imo for a mid hes poor in a lot of kpi's. The flip side is im also okay with us keeping him but he sure as hell needs to improve key areas.
Vlastuin and McIntosh are to date at best good players at times. Solid citizens if you like who need to keep on improving.
Lennon and C Ellis have done vitually nothing to date other than show glimpses.

This is what annoys me about supporters. Already these blokes are stars when nothing is further from the truth. Yet when supporters point out the obvious they are accused of belittling our players.

The optimists think they will become stars, those of us who are a tad negative insist they actually get there before we talk em up. There is a possibility that what we have seen from these blokes is what we will get, there may not be massive improvement. Which believe it or not neagative or positive we ALL hope they become stars.

 

[turtle27]

Hmm B Ellis. Finds lots of easy ball which is about the only thing he is very good at. Personally i would happily trade him out while he has a high trade value. Imo for a mid hes poor in a lot of kpi's. The flip side is im also okay with us keeping him but he sure as hell needs to improve key areas.
Vlastuin and McIntosh are to date at best good players at times. Solid citizens if you like who need to keep on improving.
Lennon and C Ellis have done vitually nothing to date other than show glimpses.

This is what annoys me about supporters. Already these blokes are stars when nothing is further from the truth. Yet when supporters point out the obvious they are accused of belittling our players.

The optimists think they will become stars, those of us who are a tad negative insist they actually get there before we talk em up. There is a possibility that what we have seen from these blokes is what we will get, there may not be massive improvement. Which believe it or not neagative or positive we ALL hope they become stars.

aislegi made the comment that the "Dogs will have stars galore in years to come" and that "St Kilda have done a thorough rebuild". I merely pointed out that we too have some nice players coming through that might also be stars in years to come, after trying to rebuild this club through the comprised drafts. Certainly didn't suggest they are stars now.

Not mentioning GWS and GC, as their rise is all AFL concession driven.

 

[TigerImposter]

If Hardwick was to be sacked at the end of the yr, for what ever reason. The new coach would have plenty to work with.
Cant say this has been the case for a long long time. I dont believe in dawns and rebuilds. Footy clubs are a work in progress it is a cycle that never stops.

What are we talking about here.
Well it seems to me some are confident we aren't that far away and are a top 6 side. Just a few more good players will see us challenge for a flag.

Others like myself think we are a middling side 7 -12. Good on our day and good when games are on our terms. Capable of competing with all sides.
For me a serious lack of depth, a lack of quality spread thru the side, Too big a reliance on too few, and finally really lacking in some very important areas are our problems and these problems are preventing us from going to a new level.

Imo we lack a second key forward, we lack a second key defender, we are screaming out for a second ruckman who would be capable of taking over from Ivan. We need more mids especially a big inside contested ball winning beast. We desperately need some genuine highly skilled super quick running machines who can play on the wings or come of h/b. We need a well rounded quick hard at it sml/med defender who wont panic under pressure. And of course we are screaming out for not one but two classy super quick goal kicking sml/med forwards.
To go to the next level we really do need to be looking to upgrade the players we have in these positions. I think the vast majority know this. Trouble is even talk of cutting players, most of whom have performed poorly or are deficient in too many areas fail in big games too many people get up in arms.

Then theres some, very few who think we are not that far away from becoming a bottom side 13 - 18. To be fair to these few people, the reality is there is not that big a gap from say 5th right thru to 17th.
I think while our depth is stretched so thin if we were to lose 4 of our better players we would drop away to a level where just competing against sides is all we could expect in effect we would become a bottom side 13 - 18. So imo it is a thin line we tread and not just us.

In other words you're saying we basically need a new team barring 6 players
In reality this thread is close to my feelings
I thought we would be moving guys like Hunt Astbury petterd Knights Chaplin Foley etc etc on, but you read threads and for some unforeseen reason people want them on for extra contracts
Then Newman and Thomas on our listsffs
Houli people saying he's all Australian just makes me laugh so much I cry in pain
There are other names I've missed, but how can we get better if we keep nowhere players on our list at the expense of looking at younger talent
Miles was the proof for this that you can find quality young players, but Blair care and friends seem to go for delisted rubbish
The love fest for mediocrity has now reached its limit and it's time to go for quality as DH may not go beyond his seventh year
He needs to sit down with the FD and sort out all our needs and start filling the holes
It's amazing how Beveridge was able to get a list up and running (without his best mid and moving on experienced players) in a season from a coach who I thought was achieving with his list. We are just content to go on all happy and clapping that things are going to be fine, but fail to realise how competitive our competitors are
Time to be ruthless not toothless . Talk and bullxxxx is cheap as it's time to upgrade our list and get true results not happy Chappy ones which just lead to tears and boys saying sorry in testicle tightening videos or docos

 

[mopsy]

aislegi made the comment that the "Dogs will have stars galore in years to come" and that "St Kilda have done a thorough rebuild". I merely pointed out that we too have some nice players coming through that might also be stars in years to come, after trying to rebuild this club through the comprised drafts. Certainly didn't suggest they are stars now.

Not mentioning GWS and GC, as their rise is all AFL concession driven.

Fair enough turtle. Its just that with many other supporters you see players put up there who have done virtually nothing.

There are other players we have who have potential. Menadues pace and foot skills are something to be excited about. Of course theres the down side of size to go with that.
Theres pros and cons to all players. All im saying is lets make em prove themselves before we start handing out the bouquets of greatness. None of us know how any of em them will ultimately turn out.

 

[Googstar]

Maybe this is a false dawn................ of a false dawn.

 

[aislegi]

Already these blokes are stars when nothing is further from the truth. Yet when supporters point out the obvious they are accused of belittling our players

The best that those of who are realistic can do is look back at how pockets of supporters got themselves all excited about the likes of Jayden Post and David Gourdis. Unfortunately, I feel, history is repeating itself.

 

[mopsy]

The best that those of who are realistic can do is look back at how pockets of supporters got themselves all excited about the likes of Jayden Post and David Gourdis. Unfortunately, I feel, history is repeating itself.

When drafted i liked Post a lot, he could really clunk a mark and he was mobile. Sometimes clubs just cant forsee how they will turn out.
I also had no problems with Dave Gourdis as a psd pick. Virtually taking a kid before the rookie draft.
I liken the experiment to say Mark Blicsavs at Geelong. Athletic beasts both, with a lot of work to do.If they make it you have a real player if they dont what have you lost.
An athlete i would have taken two seasons ago was Jonathon Marsh who is at collingwood. He was not only an athlete but had showed he could play against his peers making an a/a side i think. Dave Gourdis was good enough to make a WA side he had attributes that were worth giving a go to at the right price. PSD was a good price.

 

[aislegi]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we never should have given them a go. Just that a lot of supporters got ahead of themselves in imagining that these two (and plenty of others, I might add) were going to be stars. They never looked like it, to me. I also find it hard to get that excited about the current crop and our results say that we have plateaued.

 

[Dr Tigris]

That's true - but I see a stack of clubs doing nice things. St Kilda have done a thorough rebuild. Dogs will have stars galore in years to come. Same for GWS and Gold Coast. What I see with us is a small number of really good players, a similar number of quite good players, and the odd good pick-up from another club - but nothing come through. Or at least no-one that I can see making into the kind of star is going to change our fortunes. I know I've said this before, but I'm struggling to think of a single star that Hardwick has created. That's just not good enough, I don't think. Not in six years.

Interesting as we have beaten the best teams in the comp this year. And we are a young team getting better. So something must be in the squad, other than a few good players. And given the number of good young players we have coming through I suspect we will be getting better. What we need right now is not so much better players as a better attitude to go 100% each week for 4 quarters. We lose to teams we should beat. And cruise to a decent win against teams we should hammer. If the guys turned up a bit more for the games we as supporters expect them to not turn up to, we'd be top 4 easily. Adelaide is an obvious one.

I reckon we will a better team for the next few years just because of the talent coming through. So we'll see if you are right. But I reckon we have the possibility of a premiership coming up. That is not a poor team.

 

[turtle27]

Fair enough turtle. Its just that with many other supporters you see players put up there who have done virtually nothing.

There are other players we have who have potential. Menadues pace and foot skills are something to be excited about. Of course theres the down side of size to go with that.
Theres pros and cons to all players. All im saying is lets make em prove themselves before we start handing out the bouquets of greatness. None of us know how any of em them will ultimately turn out.

No argument here. Although some seem to have made up there mind to the negative.

 

[WATiger86]

I
It's amazing how Beveridge was able to get a list up and running (without his best mid and moving on experienced players) in a season from a coach who I thought was achieving with his list.

Beveridge will become next seasons Hinkley. Kissed on the dick with a soft draw and will come back down to reality next season with a harder draw and clubs putting a bit more work into them. That said, he's hardly put a foot wrong and the dogs list looks chocked full of talent.

 

[aislegi]

Interesting as we have beaten the best teams in the comp this year. And we are a young team getting better. So something must be in the squad, other than a few good players ... I reckon we will a better team for the next few years just because of the talent coming through. So we'll see if you are right. But I reckon we have the possibility of a premiership coming up. That is not a poor team.

Well, I don't know, whenever we have a good win it always seems to be the same names at the front of the "best" list: Cotchin, Deledio, and Riewoldt. That's how it feels watching games, too. It's Cotchin kicking a goal on his back when we're 32 points down. It's Cotchin on his back dishing off to Riewoldt. It's Cotchin stealing the football from Josh Kennedy. In my opinion, Hardwick wasn't given mission impossible. He just had to craft a side around three big talents. Moreover, he's had six years to gradually add talent, but what is happening? What are we seeing? We are seeing a season that's near-on identical to 2012, eg. Narrow loss to Geelong at the start of the year, defeat the Swans and the Hawks in the middle of the year, find ourselves needing to beat the likes of Gold Coast and North to get into the finals. Deja vu.

 

[turtle27]

Well, I don't know, whenever we have a good win it always seems to be the same names at the front of the "best" list: Cotchin, Deledio, and Riewoldt. That's how it feels watching games, too. It's Cotchin kicking a goal on his back when we're 32 points down. It's Cotchin on his back dishing off to Riewoldt. It's Cotchin stealing the football from Josh Kennedy. In my opinion, Hardwick wasn't given mission impossible. He just had to craft a side around three big talents. Moreover, he's had six years to gradually add talent, but what is happening? What are we seeing? We are seeing a season that's near-on identical to 2012, eg. Narrow loss to Geelong at the start of the year, defeat the Swans and the Hawks in the middle of the year, find ourselves needing to beat the likes of Gold Coast and North to get into the finals. Deja vu.

You honestly believe the club has added no talent from when Dimma took over? I disagree with the 2012 comparison. After Round 19 we'd won 8 games, not 11. Finals were long gone.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Well, I don't know, whenever we have a good win it always seems to be the same names at the front of the "best" list: Cotchin, Deledio, and Riewoldt. That's how it feels watching games, too. It's Cotchin kicking a goal on his back when we're 32 points down. It's Cotchin on his back dishing off to Riewoldt. It's Cotchin stealing the football from Josh Kennedy. In my opinion, Hardwick wasn't given mission impossible. He just had to craft a side around three big talents. Moreover, he's had six years to gradually add talent, but what is happening? What are we seeing? We are seeing a season that's near-on identical to 2012, eg. Narrow loss to Geelong at the start of the year, defeat the Swans and the Hawks in the middle of the year, find ourselves needing to beat the likes of Gold Coast and North to get into the finals. Deja vu.

Understand, they're our best players. But look at the best teams, same thing. Their best players drive their performance. Cut the best 3 hawks and watch them crash and burn (well comparatively, they'd still be good, but very beatable to most clubs). As Roos has said its the last 6 on the team that matter. Our last 6 are now AFL quality players. IN prior years that wasn't necessarily the case. I see where you are coming from, but it is inevitable that you don't have a team of A graders. Glass half full or empty??