Fascism - What is the likelihood of it really taking hold in Australia?

[kranky al]

It's disturbing to read how far away from fascism people think our country is.

Exhibit A:
Bernard Collaery and Witness K.
Witness K was the head of technical operations at ASIS.
In 2003 ASIS was ordered by the Foreign Minister to spy on East Timor.
Witness K made a formal complaint to the Inspector General of Intelligence & Security about the FM & the spying.
ASIS then sacked Witness K.
The Inspector General gave permission to Witness K to get legal advice & assistance from Collaery.
Collaery then prepared a brief that alleged the govt acted illegally to defraud East Timor.

In 2018, 15 years later, the AG Christian Porter gave permission to the DPP to prosecute Witness K and Bernard C for breaching s39 Intelligence Services Act, which is effectively; what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.
ie Witness K AND Bernard C got charged because Witness K spoke to Bernard C about what happened in Vegas....after getting permission to do so.

This was all done in secret, literally a secret trial, and only came to light because independent MP Andrew Wilkie used parliamentary privilege to reveal what was happening.
A secret prosecution, a secret trial, all because Alexander Downer didn't like getting outed for spying on East Timor in order to rip them off.

Point 1: The case of Witness K and Bernard C is identical to what Trump is doing to his enemies right now.
Point 2: We deliberately breached international law in order to steal an unfair share of the Sunrise Gas fields from one of the poorest nations on the planet, at the same time as pretending we are their friend.
Point 3: Secret trials, political retribution, abusing power imbalances to take advantage of the vulnerable. These are the kinds of things fascists do.

The right: stop calling us fascists or we will put you in special you called us a fascist camps that aren’t very nice

 

[faible]

It's disturbing to read how far away from fascism people think our country is.

Exhibit A:
Bernard Collaery and Witness K.
Witness K was the head of technical operations at ASIS.
In 2003 ASIS was ordered by the Foreign Minister to spy on East Timor.
Witness K made a formal complaint to the Inspector General of Intelligence & Security about the FM & the spying.
ASIS then sacked Witness K.
The Inspector General gave permission to Witness K to get legal advice & assistance from Collaery.
Collaery then prepared a brief that alleged the govt acted illegally to defraud East Timor.

In 2018, 15 years later, the AG Christian Porter gave permission to the DPP to prosecute Witness K and Bernard C for breaching s39 Intelligence Services Act, which is effectively; what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.
ie Witness K AND Bernard C got charged because Witness K spoke to Bernard C about what happened in Vegas....after getting permission to do so.

This was all done in secret, literally a secret trial, and only came to light because independent MP Andrew Wilkie used parliamentary privilege to reveal what was happening.
A secret prosecution, a secret trial, all because Alexander Downer didn't like getting outed for spying on East Timor in order to rip them off.

Point 1: The case of Witness K and Bernard C is identical to what Trump is doing to his enemies right now.
Point 2: We deliberately breached international law in order to steal an unfair share of the Sunrise Gas fields from one of the poorest nations on the planet, at the same time as pretending we are their friend.
Point 3: Secret trials, political retribution, abusing power imbalances to take advantage of the vulnerable. These are the kinds of things fascists do.

Except this isn't fascism.

 

[Number37]

Except this isn't fascism.

Isn't it?

Are those the types of things that fascists do?

 

[faible]

Isn't it?

No.

Are those the types of things that fascists do?

They could well do so. But so can plenty of other types of Governments.

You're confusing 'Government doing shit things' with fascism. One isn't the same as the other. A Government doesn't need to be fascist to do shitty things, a Government doing shitty things isn't necessarily fascist.

Fascism is a very specific thing; the Australian government isn't that thing (nor has it been in living memory that I can think of). Maybe in the future it could be, it's not impossible, but the electoral system we have combined with the highly urbanised population we have (which tend to vote more progressively) makes a genuine fascist government takeover more challenging.

Trump himself isn't necessarily a fascist - I'd say he's 'just' an authoritarian - but he's surrounded by people (the Project 2025 cohort) that likely are genuine fascists and are making decisions within the administration to make it increasingly fascist moving forward.

 

[Number37]

No.



They could well do so. But so can plenty of other types of Governments.

You're confusing 'Government doing shit things' with fascism. One isn't the same as the other. A Government doesn't need to be fascist to do shitty things, a Government doing shitty things isn't necessarily fascist.

Fascism is a very specific thing; the Australian government isn't that thing (nor has it been in living memory that I can think of). Maybe in the future it could be, it's not impossible, but the electoral system we have combined with the highly urbanised population we have (which tend to vote more progressively) makes a genuine fascist government takeover more challenging.

Trump himself isn't necessarily a fascist - I'd say he's 'just' an authoritarian - but he's surrounded by people (the Project 2025 cohort) that likely are genuine fascists and are making decisions within the administration to make it increasingly fascist moving forward.

What's the threshold?
When do we go from the govt doing shitty things to the govt being fascist?

The Australian govt can very easily become fascist. It doesn't require people to vote for it. It doesn't require 'takeover'.

In 1941 when Japan entered the war, Australia started locking Japanese Australians in camps.
In 2007 the Howard govt suspended the Racial Discrimination Act.

When the country is at war, the Constitution allows the Executive to do many fascist-adjacent things.

The LNP govt in 2018 prosecuted Witness K, in a secret trial, with secret evidence, for exposing the shitty dealings of a former LNP Foreign Minister.

From about 2000 the Howard govt removed any reference to 'natural justice' from a whole heap of statutes, specfically for the purpose of preventing people from arguing they had been denied natural justice in a dispute they have with the govt.

In the late 90's the Howard govt successfully argued that the Executive had the power to indefinitely detain a person.

The govt grants exemptions to antidiscrimination laws to various companies to allow them to not employ people from certain backgrounds.

In the early 2010's the NSW govt passed consorting laws.
Laws which prevent people from meeting or associating with convicted offenders.
These laws were enacted to prevent people who commit serious offences from meeting with their associates.
Of the 2000 orders under this law something like 500 are for indigenous folk in far West NSW.
About 50 are for minors, some of whom are less 13 years old.

It's all well and good until these laws start getting used against other people.
It is inherent to the justice system that laws apply equally to all people.
There is nothing stopping a govt from applying these laws to people other than those who they claim the laws were enacted for. Nothing stopping them.

 

[Festerz]

I’ll just put this here.

 

[faible]

When do we go from the govt doing shitty things to the govt being fascist?

When the Government is actually fascist?

You keep naming things, but I don't think any of them are particularly or uniquely fascist, let alone make the Australian government fascist.

There's plenty of ways governments can do really horrible things without that government being fascist.

Do you not understand what fascism is?

 

[Gralin]

When the Government is actually fascist?

You keep naming things, but I don't think any of them are particularly or uniquely fascist, let alone make the Australian government fascist.

There's plenty of ways governments can do really horrible things without that government being fascist.

Do you not understand what fascism is?

I think two things are pretty clear

1) Our system is setup in a way that a slide into outright fascism would be very easy if required

2) We don't need to actually be fascist to be an authoritarian state where citizens rights don't mean much

So we can keep having elections were we vote between two parties that will keep things moving in the same direction regardless of what they say publicly

we'll keep seeing less transparency in government and more control of the population

but we won't officially become a fascist state because we'll keep holding elections between two captured parties that exist to maintain control of government for the benefit of the wealthy

As Gethelred said it's more feudalism than fascism

They've always go that lever to pull if they need to but currently they're pretty much doing what they want within the system of western democracy

 

[faible]

I think two things are pretty clear

1) Our system is setup in a way that a slide into outright fascism would be very easy if required

2) We don't need to actually be fascist to be an authoritarian state where citizens rights don't mean much

So we can keep having elections were we vote between two parties that will keep things moving in the same direction regardless of what they say publicly

we'll keep seeing less transparency in government and more control of the population

but we won't officially become a fascist state because we'll keep holding elections between two captured parties that exist to maintain control of government for the benefit of the wealthy

As Gethelred said it's more feudalism than fascism

They've always go that lever to pull if they need to but currently they're pretty much doing what they want within the system of western democracy

I think the key takeaway is that fascism is a very specific thing, and that thing is not the Australian Government.

Governments don't need to be fascist to do bad things, someone simply plucking a whole heap of shitty things a government does and listing them doesn't make that government fascist unless they're actually specifically fascist things.

Yes, I agree that there's a concerning lack of accountability and transparency to the electorate. It's not fascism though. It's maybe a flirtation with authoritarianism.

You can't just 'pull' a fascist lever and make it come into existence either. Because again, fascism is a very specific thing. Kleptocracy or Oligarchy or Plutocracy are all varying degrees of bad forms of government that aren't fascist. Hell even many forms of Authoritarian government aren't fascism.

I'm not sure if people are simply using 'fascism' as a placeholder word without any reflection of the actual meaning of it, or if that poster I was replying to genuinely doesn't know what fascism is.

 

[Gralin]

I think the key takeaway is that fascism is a very specific thing, and that thing is not the Australian Government.

Governments don't need to be fascist to do bad things, someone simply plucking a whole heap of shitty things a government does and listing them doesn't make that government fascist unless they're actually specifically fascist things.

Yes, I agree that there's a concerning lack of accountability and transparency to the electorate. It's not fascism though. It's maybe a flirtation with authoritarianism.

You can't just 'pull' a fascist lever and make it come into existence either. Because again, fascism is a very specific thing. Kleptocracy or Oligarchy or Plutocracy are all varying degrees of bad forms of government that aren't fascist. Hell even many forms of Authoritarian government aren't fascism.

I'm not sure if people are simply using 'fascism' as a placeholder word without any reflection of the actual meaning of it, or if that poster I was replying to genuinely doesn't know what fascism is.

I mean there's two levels of this right

Fascism only exists in Italy and everything else is sparkling authoritarianism

Fascism is is the word people use to describe a dictatorship

its clear that state and federal governments in this country are becoming less transparent and more authoritarian

you don't have to be at the end of the scale to be an authoritarian government, you definitely don't have to be at the end to be moving in that direction

laws are getting more draconian, push back on protest is getting more violent by the state

surveillance is increasing as transparency decreases

we have less access to our own members of parliament than the lobbyists do

those guys walk the halls of government, most of us can't get a meeting with our local member

is this fascism? of course not

is the framework there to allow it to take shape? yes

is that the primary purpose of that framework? no I don't think so, its there to control without needing to be openly fascist

they'd much rather us sheeping along voting for the two majors and thinking we have control of where the country is going, have us blaming each other and immigrants than having us point to them and say revolution time

There's not need to be fascist to disappear citizens or hold people indefinitely

no need to be fascist to make racist laws, trample your citizens human rights, send the riot police in etc

so why would the go to those lengths where they can't hide behind democracy if they don't have to

US might get there if they change the rules for trump to stay in but at the same time, they don't have to become a fascist state, there's other types of dictators out there already that nobody calls fascist

its only when it might happen in a country you identify with that we seem to want to call it specifically fascism

 

[faible]

I mean there's two levels of this right

Fascism only exists in Italy and everything else is sparkling authoritarianism

Fascism is is the word people use to describe a dictatorship

its clear that state and federal governments in this country are becoming less transparent and more authoritarian

you don't have to be at the end of the scale to be an authoritarian government, you definitely don't have to be at the end to be moving in that direction

laws are getting more draconian, push back on protest is getting more violent by the state

surveillance is increasing as transparency decreases

we have less access to our own members of parliament than the lobbyists do

those guys walk the halls of government, most of us can't get a meeting with our local member

is this fascism? of course not

is the framework there to allow it to take shape? yes

is that the primary purpose of that framework? no I don't think so, its there to control without needing to be openly fascist

they'd much rather us sheeping along voting for the two majors and thinking we have control of where the country is going, have us blaming each other and immigrants than having us point to them and say revolution time

There's not need to be fascist to disappear citizens or hold people indefinitely

no need to be fascist to make racist laws, trample your citizens human rights, send the riot police in etc

so why would the go to those lengths where they can't hide behind democracy if they don't have to

US might get there if they change the rules for trump to stay in but at the same time, they don't have to become a fascist state, there's other types of dictators out there already that nobody calls fascist

its only when it might happen in a country you identify with that we seem to want to call it specifically fascism

Fascism as a concept exists beyond the Italian Fascist party.

Everything else you wrote basically seems to reflect the below:

I'm not sure if people are simply using 'fascism' as a placeholder word without any reflection of the actual meaning of it

 

[Gralin]

Fascism as a concept exists beyond the Italian Fascist party.

Yes I agree but that's one argument you'll see against fsscism elsewhere being actual fascism

I know that's not what you were doing just pointing out it's an argument used

Everything else you wrote basically seems to reflect the below:

I mean we do that with left and right etc

Shorthand in poltics, catch all phrasing etc

I'd in no way say our government is fascist or authoritarian

But I'd say if you plotted policies on an authority vs liberty graph you'd see a trend in the direction of authority

Which given material conditions is expected

 

[Number37]

When the Government is actually fascist?

You keep naming things, but I don't think any of them are particularly or uniquely fascist, let alone make the Australian government fascist.

There's plenty of ways governments can do really horrible things without that government being fascist.

Do you not understand what fascism is?

How many horrible things does a govt have to do to qualify as fascist?

"It's fascism when it's fascism" is circular logic.

 

[faible]

Yes I agree but that's one argument you'll see against fsscism elsewhere being actual fascism

I know that's not what you were doing just pointing out it's an argument used


I mean we do that with left and right etc

Shorthand in poltics, catch all phrasing etc

I'd in no way say our government is fascist or authoritarian

But I'd say if you plotted policies on an authority vs liberty graph you'd see a trend in the direction of authority

Which given material conditions is expected

The whole thread is about whether fascism is likely to take hold in Australia, I'd assume that the actual definition of fascism is relevant in this context.

Overusing a word like fascism cheapens it, if everything is fascism then nothing is fascism.

Recognising that fascism is a specific thing is useful in identifying when something or someone is genuinely fascist - like Stephen Miller is - as well as recognising that there's a whole heap of forms of government that are problematic beyond just the fascist ones. Trump himself is 'just' an authoritarian, but he's surrounded by guys like Miller or Russel Vought that I would regard as genuinely fascist who are trying implement a fascist agenda.

I don't think our government is anywhere near fascism, I don't think a fascist government is likely to get a foothold in Australian politics the way it has in the US because of the nature of our electoral system compared to the US. I don't think we're likely to see a Trump-esque authoritarian leader in Australian politics in the near future because the nature of our system, a highly educated and urbanised population and our general distaste for cults of personality and tall poppies makes it tougher to have the same outcome here. That's not to say it could never happen, but we've lucked upon a system that makes that particular outcome challenging.

I do think we're seeing governments in much of the western world look increasingly Plutocratic / Oligarchic / Kleptocratic and far less Democratic than they once were (if they were ever truly that way). We're captured by the interests of the wealthy and powerful, whether that be individuals, big corporate or lobbyists. The two major parties keep trying to make it harder for minor parties to compete, and run largely similar economic agendas which don't really see much change for the middle or lower class income earners.

 

[faible]

How many horrible things does a govt have to do to qualify as fascist?

"It's fascism when it's fascism" is circular logic.

It has to do fascist things to be fascist. Fascism is a 'thing'.

You can have bad governments that aren't fascist. Non-fascist governments have done many horrible things throughout history.

Do you not know what fascism is? Or are you using 'fascism' as a placeholder word?

 

[Gralin]

The whole thread is about whether fascism is likely to take hold in Australia, I'd assume that the actual definition of fascism is relevant in this context.

of course but fascists will muddy the water as much as possible on that definition

Overusing a word like fascism cheapens it, if everything is fascism then nothing is fascism.

this is currently what they're saying about fascism, racism, homophobia etc in the US

and again I know this is not you doing those things

the first push back from those doing these things on it being called it is denying it is though

Recognising that fascism is a specific thing is useful in identifying when something or someone is genuinely fascist - like Stephen Miller is - as well as recognising that there's a whole heap of forms of government that are problematic beyond just the fascist ones. Trump himself is 'just' an authoritarian, but he's surrounded by guys like Miller or Russel Vought that I would regard as genuinely fascist who are trying implement a fascist agenda.

here's the thing though, Trump doesn't have to personally be a fascist in this context for his government to be fascist in nature

I don't think our government is anywhere near fascism, I don't think a fascist government is likely to get a foothold in Australian politics the way it has in the US because of the nature of our electoral system compared to the US.

If you haven't worked out by now that democracy itself isn't a defense against fascism then I don't know what to say

You might be pointing at Dutton not getting elected but he wasn't smart enough to keep quiet/ thought Trump wouldn't fire up the project so quickly

I don't think we're likely to see a Trump-esque authoritarian leader in Australian politics in the near future because the nature of our system, a highly educated and urbanised population and our general distaste for cults of personality and tall poppies makes it tougher to have the same outcome here. That's not to say it could never happen, but we've lucked upon a system that makes that particular outcome challenging.

The elected leader doesn't need to be the problem though, again looking at history here

Our democracy won't protect us they get enough people into enough positions inside the system, because the whole point is taking over once in power

not getting elected on an openly fascist platform

I do think we're seeing governments in much of the western world look increasingly Plutocratic / Oligarchic / Kleptocratic and far less Democratic than they once were (if they were ever truly that way).

Yes questionable how much they ever were anything other than the what we're seeing now

We're captured by the interests of the wealthy and powerful, whether that be individuals, big corporate or lobbyists. The two major parties keep trying to make it harder for minor parties to compete, and run largely similar economic agendas which don't really see much change for the middle or lower class income earners.

Capitalism was a way for the wealthy and powerful to maintain their power under a new model

that allowed them personally to operate largely the same as under the old model, but pretend this time they earned the money

 

[Number37]

I think the key takeaway is that fascism is a very specific thing, and that thing is not the Australian Government.

Governments don't need to be fascist to do bad things, someone simply plucking a whole heap of shitty things a government does and listing them doesn't make that government fascist unless they're actually specifically fascist things.

Yes, I agree that there's a concerning lack of accountability and transparency to the electorate. It's not fascism though. It's maybe a flirtation with authoritarianism.

You can't just 'pull' a fascist lever and make it come into existence either. Because again, fascism is a very specific thing. Kleptocracy or Oligarchy or Plutocracy are all varying degrees of bad forms of government that aren't fascist. Hell even many forms of Authoritarian government aren't fascism.

I'm not sure if people are simply using 'fascism' as a placeholder word without any reflection of the actual meaning of it, or if that poster I was replying to genuinely doesn't know what fascism is.

That is just more meaningless twaddle.
I don't recall saying that the Australian govt is fascist, as you keep trying to claim.
It is a strawman argument.
What I did say, which you have completely ignored, is that the Australian govt has done many things that a fascist govt would do.
Pick any of the examples I gave and tell me that a fascist govt would not do that thing as part of their fascism.
Not everything a fascist govt does is itself fascist.

The thread is about the likelihood of fascism taking hold in Australia.
Take any of the examples I have provided and explain how & why a govt doing that thing does not increase the likelihood of fascism taking hold?

 

[Gralin]

That is just more meaningless twaddle.
I don't recall saying that the Australian govt is fascist, as you keep trying to claim.
It is a strawman argument.
What I did say, which you have completely ignored, is that the Australian govt has done many things that a fascist govt would do.
Pick any of the examples I gave and tell me that a fascist govt would not do that thing as part of their fascism.
Not everything a fascist govt does is itself fascist.

The thread is about the likelihood of fascism taking hold in Australia.
Take any of the examples I have provided and explain how & why a govt doing that thing does not increase the likelihood of fascism taking hold?

I think its worth remembering that western democracies have been doing these sorts of things without being fascist for literally decades

Western Imperial power isn't benevolent as much as it tries to sell itself as such

and Australia is part of that machine so of course these sorts of things happen here

Australia wants to be a power in its own right, we've got decades of doing terrible things in the region, our treatment of asylum seekers is deplorable

our treatment of Indigenous people is deplorable

but most people don't tend to notice or care until it looks like it could happen to them specifically

and then at that point we start talking about fascism because they could come for us next

but they don't need to be fascists to do that, so they probably won't unless it becomes necessary to protect the money and power

 

[faible]

this is currently what they're saying about fascism, racism, homophobia etc in the US

and again I know this is not you doing those things

the first push back from those doing these things on it being called it is denying it is though

I think it's useful to call the things what they are; if it's not fascism it's not fascism. It can be authoritarianism, or totalitarianism, or Oligarchy which are all still bad for the people living under said governments.

It's not as though fascism is the solely bad form of government out there.

here's the thing though, Trump doesn't have to personally be a fascist in this context for his government to be fascist in nature

He doesn't, he was largely the same authoritarian in his first term but wasn't surrounded by fascists, sycophants and anti-democratic enablers the way he is now.

The fascist element is what I'd call the Project 2025 cohort, guys like Miller and Vought. They're the smart ones. They've got a populist leader who's quite happy to sign off on a whole bunch of laws he personally doesn't give a shit about, so long as he gets plastic straws back and can rename the Gulf of Mexico. They're the truly dangerous ones.

If you haven't worked out by now that democracy itself isn't a defense against fascism then I don't know what to say

You might be pointing at Dutton not getting elected but he wasn't smart enough to keep quiet/ thought Trump wouldn't fire up the project so quickly

I'm not sure if Dutton is a fascist either. I certainly think he's racist and if he's not an outright white nationalist I think he's white nationalist adjacent. I also don't think he hid his plans to run more a more authoritative agenda albeit I don't think he'd have been capable of becoming a dictator (lacking the smarts and personality to manage it moreso than the desire).

The elected leader doesn't need to be the problem though, again looking at history here

Our democracy won't protect us they get enough people into enough positions inside the system, because the whole point is taking over once in power

not getting elected on an openly fascist platform

Democracy isn't in and of itself a protection, I agree.

Capitalism was a way for the wealthy and powerful to maintain their power under a new model

that allowed them personally to operate largely the same as under the old model, but pretend this time they earned the money

Capitalism certainly has many problems, particularly in a country like the US where they're actively removing and level of regulation or restraint around it.

The level of disdain some people have for anything labelled as 'socialist' is bizarre, given things like publicly funded healthcare are a pretty resounding success.

 

[faible]

That is just more meaningless twaddle.
I don't recall saying that the Australian govt is fascist, as you keep trying to claim.
It is a strawman argument.
What I did say, which you have completely ignored, is that the Australian govt has done many things that a fascist govt would do.
Pick any of the examples I gave and tell me that a fascist govt would not do that thing as part of their fascism.
Not everything a fascist govt does is itself fascist.

The thread is about the likelihood of fascism taking hold in Australia.
Take any of the examples I have provided and explain how & why a govt doing that thing does not increase the likelihood of fascism taking hold?

It's not meaningless twaddle.

You just keep saying things that aren't fascist as arguments that somehow the government is doing fascist things.

If the government does problematic things, that aren't fascist, then it's not fascist. Problematic things are still problematic.

You seem to be arguing that the sole form of problematic government is fascist ones, when there's plenty of others out there that are just as problematic for the people living under them and far more likely to occur in the Australian context IMO.

I'd be far more concerned about plutocracy or oligarchy here than fascism.

 

[Gralin]

I think it's useful to call the things what they are; if it's not fascism it's not fascism. It can be authoritarianism, or totalitarianism, or Oligarchy which are all still bad for the people living under said governments.

It's not as though fascism is the solely bad form of government out there.

of course it isn't the only bad form of government

He doesn't, he was largely the same authoritarian in his first term but wasn't surrounded by fascists, sycophants and anti-democratic enablers the way he is now.

The fascist element is what I'd call the Project 2025 cohort, guys like Miller and Vought. They're the smart ones. They've got a populist leader who's quite happy to sign off on a whole bunch of laws he personally doesn't give a shit about, so long as he gets plastic straws back and can rename the Gulf of Mexico. They're the truly dangerous ones.

this is my point though, it doesn't matter whether Trump is actively fascist if he's going to passively enact the policies of fascists in his government

at that point there is no reason to say he's not personally fascist in ideology, the end result is him enacting fascism

and it is the sort of area that the people who want fascism love to play in

they'll point out all the ways they can't be fascists

Trump is truly dangerous because he does not give a shit and will do this regardless of whether he believes in it or not

and he provides a focal point for people to cheer it on

I'm not sure if Dutton is a fascist either. I certainly think he's racist and if he's not an outright white nationalist I think he's white nationalist adjacent. I also don't think he hid his plans to run more a more authoritative agenda albeit I don't think he'd have been capable of becoming a dictator (lacking the smarts and personality to manage it moreso than the desire).

again not really relevant or what I was getting at,
Australia not voting Dutton is wasn't a rejection of fascism so its not an example of how it couldn't happen here was my point

Democracy isn't in and of itself a protection, I agree.

good because that's been proven true

Capitalism certainly has many problems, particularly in a country like the US where they're actively removing and level of regulation or restraint around it.

The level of disdain some people have for anything labelled as 'socialist' is bizarre, given things like publicly funded healthcare are a pretty resounding success.

because socialism means the capitalists have to pay for things and those with less money have better lives

better lives means they might not take a risky job to get health insurance because hospital is free

its not in the interests of capital for the population to be comfortable or for wealth to be shared despite the main selling point of capitalism being officially anyone can get rich

 

[faible]

this is my point though, it doesn't matter whether Trump is actively fascist if he's going to passively enact the policies of fascists in his government

at that point there is no reason to say he's not personally fascist in ideology, the end result is him enacting fascism

and it is the sort of area that the people who want fascism love to play in

they'll point out all the ways they can't be fascists

Trump is truly dangerous because he does not give a shit and will do this regardless of whether he believes in it or not

and he provides a focal point for people to cheer it on

It's not like it's any better that he's personally an authoritarian though.

Since as you said about fascism;

of course it isn't the only bad form of government

Australia not voting Dutton is wasn't a rejection of fascism so its not an example of how it couldn't happen here was my point

I don't think Dutton ran on a particularly fascist platform and even that got resoundingly rejected.

I never said it couldn't happen here:

That's not to say it could never happen

I just don't think a fascist government is a likely occurrence in the short-term in Australia. I think we're far, far closer to the below:

I'd be far more concerned about plutocracy or oligarchy here than fascism.

because socialism means the capitalists have to pay for things and those with less money have better lives

better lives means they might not take a risky job to get health insurance because hospital is free

its not in the interests of capital for the population to be comfortable or for wealth to be shared despite the main selling point of capitalism being officially anyone can get rich

The silly part is, when a society is more unequal it ultimately leads to problems. Those problems often end in those in power suffering in the long run.

You'd think for the ultra-wealthy they'd be far smarter to throw out a few more crumbs to ensure they're not the ones that lose their head. It's not good long-term planning, but I guess for a lot of them they simply don't give a shit about the long-term so long as they've got theirs.

 

[Gralin]

It's not like it's any better that he's personally an authoritarian though.

Since as you said about fascism;

I'm asking why you want to make the distinction that you don't think Trump personally is a fascist while he very much appears to be enacting the policies of fascists standing behind him?

Its a form of cover whether you mean it to be or not

While its true that accuracy matters there's no point getting bogged down in the academic exercise of arguing where the line is before you can call it what it is

we've got plenty of evidence over the last few years of how that tendency is used by those in power to cover what they are doing

I don't think Dutton ran on a particularly fascist platform and even that got resoundingly rejected.

again I never said he did and I didn't say you did either

I'm saying him not winning isn't an argument against it happening here because they're not going to get elected on a fascist platform if it ever does happen here

I never said it couldn't happen here:



I just don't think a fascist government is a likely occurrence in the short-term in Australia. I think we're far, far closer to the below:

again no argument from me on this, all I've said is that if they need to pull that lever they can more easily than people realise

The silly part is, when a society is more unequal it ultimately leads to problems. Those problems often end in those in power suffering in the long run.

nobody ever said the rich were any smarter than the rest of us

You'd think for the ultra-wealthy they'd be far smarter to throw out a few more crumbs to ensure they're not the ones that lose their head. It's not good long-term planning, but I guess for a lot of them they simply don't give a shit about the long-term so long as they've got theirs.

yes, they aren't any more emotionally mature or intelligent, they're not longer term strategic thinkers

they're people with money

there is a reason that all around the world over and over again those in power fail to learn the lessons that you can only push people so far before they push back

and its because people don't really learn from history

they think it will be different for them this time

they'll get away with it, they're smarter than those other guys after all, everyone tells them that

 

[faible]

I'm asking why you want to make the distinction that you don't think Trump personally is a fascist while he very much appears to be enacting the policies of fascists standing behind him?

Its a form of cover whether you mean it to be or not

While its true that accuracy matters there's no point getting bogged down in the academic exercise of arguing where the line is before you can call it what it is

we've got plenty of evidence over the last few years of how that tendency is used by those in power to cover what they are doing


again I never said he did and I didn't say you did either

I'm saying him not winning isn't an argument against it happening here because they're not going to get elected on a fascist platform if it ever does happen here

again no argument from me on this, all I've said is that if they need to pull that lever they can more easily than people realise

nobody ever said the rich were any smarter than the rest of us

yes, they aren't any more emotionally mature or intelligent, they're not longer term strategic thinkers

they're people with money

there is a reason that all around the world over and over again those in power fail to learn the lessons that you can only push people so far before they push back

and its because people don't really learn from history

they think it will be different for them this time

they'll get away with it, they're smarter than those other guys after all, everyone tells them that

This entire thread is about fascism taking hold in Australia, so it seems pretty relevant to distinguish what is, and what is not, fascism.

This whole chain of discussion kicked off because a poster mentioned <bad things government does> as evidence for fascism taking hold in Australia, despite none of those things actually being fascist.

Bad governments do a lot of similar things, because those things are necessary to continue to do the things they want to do without interference by the people.

My entire response was that there's plenty of other forms of governments that are bad for the people living under them beyond fascism, so getting fixated on fascism whilst you're living under an oligarchy or plutocracy seems pretty silly.

It's not impossible Australia someday elects a fascist government, but I don't think we're going to see that in the near future. Meanwhile, I'd be far more concerned about plutocracy or oligarchy and the problems that brings.

The US under Trump isn't just problematic because parts of his administration are fascists, it's problematic because Trump is an anti-democratic authoritarian dictator.

If people want to use the term fascism as a nebulous thing that's largely unrelated to the definition of fascism that's fine, but when the entire topic is about a fascist movement it does kind of matter that we're actually discussing fascism and not using it as a vague 'everything I don't like is fascist' the way right-wingers use the term woke.

 

[Gralin]

This entire thread is about fascism taking hold in Australia, so it seems pretty relevant to distinguish what is, and what is not, fascism.

This whole chain of discussion kicked off because a poster mentioned <bad things government does> as evidence for fascism taking hold in Australia, despite none of those things actually being fascist.

Bad governments do a lot of similar things, because those things are necessary to continue to do the things they want to do without interference by the people.

My entire response was that there's plenty of other forms of governments that are bad for the people living under them beyond fascism, so getting fixated on fascism whilst you're living under an oligarchy or plutocracy seems pretty silly.

It's not impossible Australia someday elects a fascist government, but I don't think we're going to see that in the near future. Meanwhile, I'd be far more concerned about plutocracy or oligarchy and the problems that brings.

The US under Trump isn't just problematic because parts of his administration are fascists, it's problematic because Trump is an anti-democratic authoritarian dictator.

If people want to use the term fascism as a nebulous thing that's largely unrelated to the definition of fascism that's fine, but when the entire topic is about a fascist movement it does kind of matter that we're actually discussing fascism and not using it as a vague 'everything I don't like is fascist' the way right-wingers use the term woke.

this is the issue I keep having with you

you want to argue what things aren't not what they are

you then bog conversation down in your definition of what a word means rather than anything else

its tiresome and I don't believe it actually achieves what you think it will, which is to get people to agree what a word means and only use it in the agreed fashion

people don't work that way

I agree we're unlikely to become a fascist state because I don't think they will need to go to that specific point to get what they want

but that doesn't mean we couldn't become a fascist state

that doesn't mean that there isn't an element of the population that does want a fascist state

the question really should be how many people are there that want this and how successful are they at getting into positions of power

you think the people behind Project 2025 aren't trying to replicate what they are doing in America in every major western democracy right now?

regardless of whether we specifically get fascism there is a definite push in western democracies to become more authoritarian and that is going to increase the risk of fascism taking root, not decrease it