Society/Culture Fat, happy and stupid: Is Australia getting dumber?

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Dec 20, 2014
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I've been living outside of Australia for a while.

But every time I go back, I'm shocked and disappointed by what I encounter in Australia.

Australia is one of the most prosperous, well-educated countries in the world – and it's perhaps the most desirable destination for would-be immigrants. The quality of life is through the roof, and the access to health care and higher education is something Americans (for example) could only dream about. And we basically live in peace with one another, without absurd sectarian or ethnic conflicts interfering with the great Australian project of just getting along. Some people may object to that characterisation but they should look abroad – Australian society is remarkably and brilliantly cohesive.*

However, when I go back to Australia, I'm stunned by the vapid commercial TV. It's not befitting of a civilised, well-educated country. For example, the way breakfast TV promotes inane human interest stories over real news, or how the commercial networks spend their budgets on horrific but cheap reality TV. People might say that commercial TV is a poor reflection, but it is actually a very real reflection. It's about volume. Enough Australians like this s**t to vindicate it.

But it doesn't stop there. I actually think Australians are becoming dumber and more incurious when the graph needs to be moving in the opposite direction.



People might accuse me of "cultural cringe" but I've actually been of the opinion for a while that Australian culture generally is among the most robust and decent in the world. We're just misfiring intellectually. Australia is one of the most successful immigrant societies of the past 100 years. We've been super successful in assimilating Greeks, Italians, Vietnamese, Thais, Chinese, Lebanese (with exceptions). Our model is a benchmark for many countries.

People might point to the US or the UK and provide horrific examples of rednecks who can't spell their own names or chavs who don't know what day it is. But those countries are no longer the salient benchmarks for Australia. Rather, Australians should monitor the comparisons with Japan and South Korea. Those are the most developed nations in our region, and Australia is a backward fool in comparison. Australia is not competitive when you look at it regionally.

Consider Australia's advantages: the state of Australian politics is actually pretty admirable (if uninspiring) when you cast an eye further afield. The centre holds, more or less. And the loser in elections accepts the legitimacy of the process. Australians might think that means SFA but it's actually something worth celebrating when you look at the region and the world generally.



The point I hope to make in the above paragraphs is that those who call Australia home have been born into strikingly good fortune. This vast yet small country of 25 million. Compared to whole swathes of the world that are just badly governed loops of poverty and ignorance and violence. But what do Australians do with that good fortune?

Whenever I visit Australia, I feel like Australians are becoming more incurious, more suspicious of intellect. And the token examples of intelligent conversation have become increasingly worthless. I've lived in some s**t holes - some chaotic, developing places - and when I compare those places to Australia, I find it harder and harder to forgive the dumb s**t complacency of Australians who are, in theory, better educated and more effectively incentivised to not be illiterate morons.

The best and most generous explanation I can offer is that Australia is a small market. It means that more challenging, more niche ideas face greater obstacles. There is an incentive for broad appeal.

A trivial example: if Monty Python had started in Australia, as opposed to the larger market of the UK, they simply wouldn't have found a large enough following to transition into something bigger. In the US, someone like Conan O'Brien is by no means the No.1 guy in his slot but manages to carve out a niche – in Australia, we get Rove McManus or The Project. So broad and so uninspired that no one cares. That's Australia.



Australia is this one-off experiment with all these advantages, and it could be the greatest country in the world. But there's this collective mass who are so intoxicated by their relative comfort that they just stopped trying? And now being unlettered and intellectually lazy is OK?

Yet, Australia still has so much to recommend it. But why is it so dumb?

* Generalisations acknowledged.
 
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Rather, Australians should monitor the comparisons with Japan and South Korea. Those are the most developed nations in our region, and Australia is a backward fool in comparison.

Yeah...dunno about this...

I lived in Seoul for three years. South Koreans believe, a.) a running fan in a closed room will kill you; and b.) that ducks cannot fly. My university educated colleagues were convinced of the validity of these 'facts'.

You talk about vapid commercial tv...I watched a Japanese show once where a blindfolded person lay underneath a ramp with a hole that they stuck their tongue through. They then had to guess what was poured down the ramp. I saw a big, spiky ball of some kind and boiling water straight from the kettle.

I also trekked to Mt Everest Base Camp with a Singaporean girl, univeristy educated, an accountant at a big firm, who didn't think there would be much uphill walking on the trek.

Every culture has its blind spots.
 
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Yeah...dunno about this...

I lived in Seoul for three years. South Koreans believe, a.) a running fan in a closed room will kill you; and b.) that ducks cannot fly. My university educated colleagues were convinced of the validity of these 'facts'.

You talk about vapid commercial tv...I watched a Japanese show once where a blindfolded person lay underneath a ramp with a hole that they stuck their tongue through. They then had to guess what was poured down the ramp. I saw a big, spiky ball of some kind and boiling water straight from the kettle.

I also trekked to Mt Everest Base Camp with a Singaporean girl, univeristy educated, an accountant at a big firm, who didn't think there would be much uphill walking on the trek.

Every culture has its blind spots.
Granted.

But look at South Korea's trajectory.

You can look at any country and highlight a deficiency. My point is that Australia is disproportionately advantaged but is generally dumb AF.

Admittedly some of that is anecdotal.
 

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Granted.

But look at South Korea's trajectory.

I don't disagree with your premise, I just think much of the developed world in general is moving towards the anti-intellectualism you highlighted.

What aspects of SK's trajectory appeal to you?
 
But there's this collective mass who are so intoxicated by their relative comfort that they just stopped trying? And now being unlettered and intellectually lazy is OK?

I think you've nailed one of the key issues with this edit...

Laziness and all its manifestations.
 
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I don't disagree with your premise, I just think much of the developed world in general is moving towards the anti-intellectualism you highlighted.
I don't accept that.

That said, in Australia, where is this "intellectualism" represented? Either way, Australia has little cause for such a revolt.

More generally, my point was that the lowest common denominator US culture shouldn't be the point of comparison.

What aspects of SK's trajectory appeal to you?
The speed of its development from being a basket case.

I'm not suggesting Australia should aspire to be SK, but in terms of its standards of education and development, and regional dynamics, it's perhaps a more salient benchmark than the US.
 
I have told this story in another thread but it is apt for this one.

I have been going to the same GP for the last 34 years and get on very well with him and we regularly share a joke or two. I was in his office one day and a call came through from a patient whom he was clearly frustrated with, when he got off the phone he shook his head. Cut a long story short I ended up saying to him it's not survival of the fittest anymore, his reply was a laugh and "no it's now the survival of the fattest and dumbest".
 
I've been living outside of Australia for a while.

But every time I go back, I'm shocked and disappointed by what I encounter in Australia.

Australia is one of the most prosperous, well-educated countries in the world – and it's perhaps the most desirable destination for would-be immigrants. The quality of life is through the roof, and the access to health care and higher education is something Americans (for example) could only dream about. And we basically live in peace with one another, without absurd sectarian or ethnic conflicts interfering with the great Australian project of just getting along. Some people may object to that characterisation but they should look abroad – Australian society is remarkably and brilliantly cohesive.*

However, when I go back to Australia, I'm stunned by the vapid commercial TV. It's not befitting of a civilised, well-educated country. For example, the way breakfast TV promotes inane human interest stories over real news, or how the commercial networks spend their budgets on horrific but cheap reality TV. People might say that commercial TV is a poor reflection, but it is actually a very real reflection. It's about volume. Enough Australians like this s**t to vindicate it.

But it doesn't stop there. I actually think Australians are becoming dumber and more incurious when the graph needs to be moving in the opposite direction.



People might accuse me of "cultural cringe" but I've actually been of the opinion for a while that Australian culture generally is among the most robust and decent in the world. We're just misfiring intellectually. Australia is one of the most successful immigrant societies of the past 100 years. We've been super successful in assimilating Greeks, Italians, Vietnamese, Thais, Chinese, Lebanese (with exceptions). Our model is a benchmark for many countries.

People might point to the US or the UK and provide horrific examples of rednecks who can't spell their own names or chavs who don't know what day it is. But those countries are no longer the salient benchmarks for Australia. Rather, Australians should monitor the comparisons with Japan and South Korea. Those are the most developed nations in our region, and Australia is a backward fool in comparison. Australia is not competitive when you look at it regionally.

Consider Australia's advantages: the state of Australian politics is actually pretty admirable (if uninspiring) when you cast an eye further afield. The centre holds, more or less. And the loser in elections accepts the legitimacy of the process. Australians might think that means SFA but it's actually something worth celebrating when you look at the region and the world generally.



The point I hope to make in the above paragraphs is that those who call Australia home have been born into strikingly good fortune. This vast yet small country of 25 million. Compared to whole swathes of the world that are just badly governed loops of poverty and ignorance and violence. But what do Australians do with that good fortune?

Whenever I visit Australia, I feel like Australians are becoming more incurious, more suspicious of intellect. And the token examples of intelligent conversation have become increasingly worthless. I've lived in some s**t holes - some chaotic, developing places - and when I compare those places to Australia, I find it harder and harder to forgive the dumb s**t complacency of Australians who are, in theory, better educated and more effectively incentivised to not be illiterate morons.

The best and most generous explanation I can offer is that Australia is a small market. It means that more challenging, more niche ideas face greater obstacles. There is an incentive for broad appeal.

A trivial example: if Monty Python had started in Australia, as opposed to the larger market of the UK, they simply wouldn't have found a large enough following to transition into something bigger. In the US, someone like Conan O'Brien is by no means the No.1 guy in his slot but manages to carve out a niche – in Australia, we get Rove McManus or The Project. So broad and so uninspired that no one cares. That's Australia.



Australia is this one-off experiment with all these advantages, and it could be the greatest country in the world. But there's this collective mass who are so intoxicated by their relative comfort that they just stopped trying? And now being unlettered and intellectually lazy is OK?

Yet, Australia still has so much to recommend it. But why is it so dumb?

* Generalisations acknowledged.


Australia went through a process of dumbining when it started to follow the "for-profit" model of society, which has as much intellectual worth as a pack of chimpanzees smearing s**t on a glass wall at a zoo enclosure (no offence to your profile pic). As a result of this "for-profit" way of thinking, everything, including the news is just a commercial, "look what people are stating on Twitter" (this news item was brought to you by Twitter), "did you know that the government is going to make you pay more money for your healthcare after you reach 30?" (this news item was proudly brought to you by a private healthcare company and endorsed by a "for profit" government), "houses in Sydney are now >7x median income due to "foreign investors" and the youth cannot afford them because they are lazy, marijuana smoking sharia voting refugee hippies" (this news item was proudly brought to you by the Australian Government who between them have a large portfolio of negatively geared property in Sydney)
 

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OP's location is Hong Kong, I guess he prefers good old authoritarian rule.
I don't.

However, it's striking that your response to my complaint about Australia's embrace of dumb s**t, low culture is to point to Chinese authoritarianism, like that somehow gets Australia off the hook. It doesn't.

If I lived in Zimbabwe, that would make Australia even better. Right?

It's almost like you went out of your way to demonstrate an inability to reason.

He'd have the local authorities knocking on his door if he wrote something like this about the locals.
Hardly.

Have you ever been to HK?
 
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Honestly, this is 'last days of Rome' stuff. It's the 21st-century equivalent of Caligula making his horse a senator. Surely you would have to be brain-damaged and proud of it to watch this. There's simply no excuse for this kind of popular stupidity in Australia. There should be a stigma attached to this kind of mindlessness.

 
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Have thought the same for a long time

except I've never really thought it was a 'smart' country to start with


Without giving my folks too much s**t, they both grew up in the country during the 60s & 70s - Had kids by their early 20s and have pretty much just worked ever since

Nothing wrong with that, and I actually think compared to alot of their friends, they have done alright in terms of their 'awareness' - though myself and my brother have had a lot to do with that


But atleast 30 / 40 years ago we just didn't hear about these dumbshits because there was no social media for them to 'publish' their thoughts - Commercial TV was nowhere near as entrenched as it is now

They've always been there, you just never heard from them before, and markets were not pandered to them because traditionally they had no expendable income
 
Without giving my folks too much s**t, they both grew up in the country during the 60s & 70s - Had kids by their early 20s and have pretty much just worked ever since

Nothing wrong with that, and I actually think compared to alot of their friends, they have done alright in terms of their 'awareness' - though myself and my brother have had a lot to do with that

Huh!

If there is nothing wrong with it, what are you actually telling us ?

Tell me about this 'awareness'.
 
sorry I didn't really expand on that

- There's nothing inherently wrong with getting a job, married, having kids early and then that's it (though I'm not interested myself) but what it tends to lead to is a complete lack of experience and awareness of anything outside of your mortgage and the inane and unimpressive s**t that your kids do

Less varied experiences then can often lead to less empathy and the hubris creates '* everyone else I'm in it for me'

then you end up with a nation such as this that is completely self-centred and greedy
 
Honestly, this is 'last days of Rome' stuff. It's the 21st-century equivalent of Caligula making his horse a senator. Surely you would have to be brain-damaged and proud of it to watch this. There's simply no excuse for this kind of popular stupidity in Australia. There should be a stigma attached to this kind of mindlessness.



I don't watch it and I'm not sure it's popular but have you ever considered that you could be a snob?
 
I don't watch it and I'm not sure it's popular but have you ever considered that you could be a snob?
Define "snob".

If you mean being able to identify awful s**t as awful s**t, then sure. If you mean a belief that being informed and discerning is desirable for its own sake, then sure. Is the opposite preferable?

There should be a stigma attached to rank stupidity. Instead, you focus on the "snobbishness" of calling out this stupidity for what it is. Therein lies the problem. The quality control filters are broken. How can that be a good thing?

Why aren't people more ashamed of being dumb AF? There's no excuse for it in Australia. And yet people seem quite relaxed about it. There no longer seems to be any social cost attached. That leaves us with the race to the bottom that's now on display.
 
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sorry I didn't really expand on that

- There's nothing inherently wrong with getting a job, married, having kids early and then that's it (though I'm not interested myself) but what it tends to lead to is a complete lack of experience and awareness of anything outside of your mortgage and the inane and unimpressive s**t that your kids do

Less varied experiences then can often lead to less empathy and the hubris creates '**** everyone else I'm in it for me'

then you end up with a nation such as this that is completely self-centred and greedy

You see i think the opposite, i think you end up with selfish and self centered people when you don't have families and do it tough paying of mortgages or school fees, or even just the rent, they also miss out on the pleasure and pain of seeing the triumphs and pitfalls of their children.

I think it actually snobbish of you to point and say people with families have less empathy and more hubris, for me it is the complete opposite.
 
Define "snob".

If you mean being able to identify awful s**t as awful s**t, then sure. If you mean a belief that being informed and discerning is desirable for its own sake, then sure. Is the opposite preferable?

There should be a stigma attached to rank stupidity. Instead, you focus on the "snobbishness" of calling out this stupidity for what it is. Therein lies the problem. The quality control filters are broken. How can that be a good thing?

Why aren't people more ashamed of being dumb AF? There's no excuse for it in Australia. And yet people seem quite relaxed about it. There no longer seems to be any social cost attached. That leaves us with the race to the bottom that's now on display.

incredible genius, you got all that out of one question.

Snob, intellectual or otherwise where there's always a higher goal to attain so far so good. But in doing that, there's always more and more people to look down on.
 
incredible genius, you got all that out of one question.
I didn't realise there was a limit to how I was allowed to respond.

Snob, intellectual or otherwise where there's always a higher goal to attain so far so good.
I don't understand what this means.

But in doing that, there's always more and more people to look down on.
Again, this idea that "looking down on someone" is inherently a taboo. Why isn't stupidity the taboo? We'd be better off.

Absolutely, I look down on people who would choose to watch Bride and Prejudice. I judge them for their stupidity and lack of discernment.

The problem is that they are turning their brains to mush, not that some people are willing to criticise them for it. How did we get this the wrong way round?

I suspect plenty of people would be willing to criticise a morbidly obese person who continues to binge on junk food. That would strike many people as grotesquely and recklessly unhealthy. What's the difference?
 
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You see i think the opposite, i think you end up with selfish and self centered people when you don't have families and do it tough paying of mortgages or school fees, or even just the rent, they also miss out on the pleasure and pain of seeing the triumphs and pitfalls of their children.

I think it actually snobbish of you to point and say people with families have less empathy and more hubris, for me it is the complete opposite.

empathetic for people in the same situation as them

that's the problem

no empathy for people with different circumstances, because they've never stepped outside their insular lives*

that's why there is an entire spectrum of national politics playing up to dead s**t morons who are scared of brown people rocking up to this country via boat


*7 nights in Kuta doesn't count
 

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