Analysis Father Son and Academy players bidding system

[TeeKray]

On a slight tangent but after reading this - http://www.portadelaidefc.com.au/news/2015-10-26/aboriginal-academy-graduate-wins-scholarship - I couldn't help but think that we have some claim to recruiting from our Aboriginal Academy in much the same way as the northern states clubs do in recruiting from their football based academies. Unlike them, we are actually doing good for the community, not just ourselves and the AFL corporate machine.

 

[Portia]

Under the prior system, Brisbane could have taken Hipwood & Keays for their first two picks in the draft. Now, they will take Hipwood and may not be able to afford Keays. Its compeltely different. And thats not even bringing up later Academy players that they wont be able to afford either.

The part about multiple players being worth progressively worse picks previously is a fair one, but as for Brisbane's ability to get their players this year, its still pretty much about them declining to do so - when you start with picks 2, 21, 39, I am not sure you're exactly stuck in a corner/

It must also be remembered that the only reason both Brisbane & GWS have been able to stockpile picks is due to the exodus of players experienced by both clubs this year. In a normal year, neither will be able to end up with a stack of 2nd & 3rd round picks to do what they've been able to this year.

They'll still be able to trade their first round pick into 2nd and 3rd round picks of higher total value every year though.

If anything says that the current points valuation, its that trading down for more points is such a clearly desirable option. Hopefully the AFL will adjust future points values accordingly.

 

[Portia]

On a slight tangent but after reading this - http://www.portadelaidefc.com.au/news/2015-10-26/aboriginal-academy-graduate-wins-scholarship - I couldn't help but think that we have some claim to recruiting from our Aboriginal Academy in much the same way as the northern states clubs do in recruiting from their football based academies. Unlike them, we are actually doing good for the community, not just ourselves and the AFL corporate machine.

Are we though? Flicking through that link, we're giving money for select athletic boys to try and be footballers, or failing that come out of it with a qualification in the sporting industry that tbh would be of dubious value to the community or to their career prospects if they aren't up to grade on their football talent.

 

[Portology]

I want a national draft
I want free player movement with limited restrictions
clubs having some form of development squad linked with zones that play against each other nation wide

So you want pre-draft kids tied to "zones", but relatively free player movement post draft? Or do you mean zones as in ... zones?

IMO "development squads linked with zones", ie closed shop club based academies will 100% lead to rampant talent "hiding". Barring incorruptibly open through-life assessment, valuation, bidding and drafting, it would be a big new source of inequity. IMO we'd be better than most at identifying and developing talent, but worse than most at attempting to hide it. A drive to excel is in our DNA, the corrupt version of "win at any cost" is not. IMO other vagaries of football ops $$ would put a limit on just how good we'd be able to be relative to a certain few richer clubs.

True zones IMO aren't compatible with draft-and-cap professional systems, except for limited scope, special purpose, time limited cases. Expansion state "academies" are effectively "open", meet the first two of my three critieria. The "valuation system" I think is specifically what many think is flawed. We trade current and future picks using the current points value of this year's pick of the same number and next year that pick value changes (but last year's trades are done). Sheesh, it's confusing but it's a marketplace, they are all a bit like that, none are perfect, all purchases involve some risk. Equally confusing and risky for all is not perfect but neither is it necessarily unfair... there's no undoing what Geelong got out of the F/S bidding system of a decade and a half ago, but we know that can't particular "market failure" happen again. Incremental changes are probably more sensible than grand Great Leap Forward type re-engineering of a system no one fully understands.

 

[Jonts]

Are we though? Flicking through that link, we're giving money for select athletic boys to try and be footballers, or failing that come out of it with a qualification in the sporting industry that tbh would be of dubious value to the community or to their career prospects if they aren't up to grade on their football talent.

I'm pretty sure there are some strict guidelines that they have to hit school grade wise to stay in the program

 

[Forzaport]

AFL draft 2015: Academy and Father-Son bidding systems could see ‘black holes’ open in draft

SEVERAL ‘black holes’ in the national draft could open up following the introduction of academy and father-son bidding.

Sydney, GWS and Brisbane are expected to have to part with a number of mid-range draft picks in order to match bids for academy products that have been tipped as top 20 contenders.

It means a swarm of picks, mainly in the middle of the draft, could disappear with those clubs likely to be forced backwards in the pecking order as a result.

As many as 24 of 40 picks between selections 33 and 72 could be used on academy or father-son players.

AFL draft 2015: Academy and Father-Son bidding systems could see ‘black holes’ open in draft

Interesting times.

 

[Tibbs]

Are we though? Flicking through that link, we're giving money for select athletic boys to try and be footballers, or failing that come out of it with a qualification in the sporting industry that tbh would be of dubious value to the community or to their career prospects if they aren't up to grade on their football talent.

Mmmm? Your negativity surprises me! I for one think that this program is one of the many things that sets us apart from the other teams. It will have an impact on these young men's lives, their families, and the communities they visit. It makes me for one, proud of our club, but more importantly it is part of the mosaic that is making Port stand out as a destination club.

Some quotes from various PAFC club on the AcademyL

Their time training as elite athletes will come with a catch – they must also adhere to a strict academic benchmark. "The emphasis of this program is in the educational outcomes ...“

While at Alberton, participants will also complete a Certificate III in sport and recreation. So vital is the education side of the program that, if he had to choose, Power CEO Keith Thomas said he'd prefer to see one of the participants go on to graduate from university than get drafted to the AFL.

"The football component is in fact a very small component of the overall program. It is being established to encourage every student to aim high and raise the bar of expectation they place on themselves in areas such as attendance, participation, educational achievement and behaviour.”

Port Adelaide stays in contact with players' schools for the duration of the program to ensure they continue to meet in-school expectations and uphold the Academy's team values outside of the football environment.

“It’s really exciting to see the huge gains these young men have made both as footballers and as students in the Aboriginal AFL Academy this year,” said Paul Vandenbergh.

“The support of EnergyAustralia has given us an opportunity to do more things with this young group and also plan for a future where the Academy is able to have an even bigger impact in remote communities. “Our continuing partners have been excellent in providing us the opportunity to engage young Aboriginal students around the state again this year.”

“The Academy boys will run football clinics and also give out boots and shoes from ourSoles4Souls program and hopefully get a sense of pride from seeing the way such a simple gesture can impact on the lives of local children.”

 

[demon inda sack]

Sorry didn't explain that well at all I was in a rush. Take away the linked with zones and I was talking about increasing the draft age and having something like the tac cup nationally for two years of development.

So you want pre-draft kids tied to "zones", but relatively free player movement post draft? Or do you mean zones as in ... zones?

IMO "development squads linked with zones", ie closed shop club based academies will 100% lead to rampant talent "hiding". Barring incorruptibly open through-life assessment, valuation, bidding and drafting, it would be a big new source of inequity. IMO we'd be better than most at identifying and developing talent, but worse than most at attempting to hide it. A drive to excel is in our DNA, the corrupt version of "win at any cost" is not. IMO other vagaries of football ops $$ would put a limit on just how good we'd be able to be relative to a certain few richer clubs.

True zones IMO aren't compatible with draft-and-cap professional systems, except for limited scope, special purpose, time limited cases. Expansion state "academies" are effectively "open", meet the first two of my three critieria. The "valuation system" I think is specifically what many think is flawed. We trade current and future picks using the current points value of this year's pick of the same number and next year that pick value changes (but last year's trades are done). Sheesh, it's confusing but it's a marketplace, they are all a bit like that, none are perfect, all purchases involve some risk. Equally confusing and risky for all is not perfect but neither is it necessarily unfair... there's no undoing what Geelong got out of the F/S bidding system of a decade and a half ago, but we know that can't particular "market failure" happen again. Incremental changes are probably more sensible than grand Great Leap Forward type re-engineering of a system no one fully understands.

 

[demon inda sack]

Yeah I said goals, not systems, for a reason. Those things you mention have conflicting goals.

Sorry I was in a rush when I posted that. Players being able to move freely at 24. Limited access to local talent. players entering at a more developed level. I want an even competition where teams spend limited time down the bottom due to not having access to talent.

 

[*PAF]

Portia you are missing the point.

This system will probably allow all clubs to end up with academies, or zones or whatever you want to call them, as it is seen as fair to all teams.

The point is that the real fun will begin after all clubs have academies.

 

[Portology]

Portia you are missing the point.

This system will probably allow all clubs to end up with academies, or zones or whatever you want to call them, as it is seen as fair to all teams.

The point is that the real fun will begin after all clubs have academies.

Every club getting one of something with the same name is no practical definition of "fair".

I don't ever see zones happening nationally. There is absolutely no way they could be uniform or fair and most importantly whatever the vagaries of the current system zones would end up less fair and more inequitable. Not while the prospective zones are so unequal in terms of catchment (think Vic cubs, and think of SA's age profile and lack of growth), quality (in the non-footy states), "competitiveness" for the top talented kids (think NSW&QLD competing with three other major footy codes + swimming at least for talent) and club revenue spends on said academies (think North vs WC).

current northern academies (=half birthed/half baked zones) and drafts are only just compatible as it is, as the points system complexity seems to show. but at least the confusion and risk is relatively equally shared with the points system and the system is capable of evolution.

get a bad zone and you're South Adelaide, from perennial contender to ****ed for your entire history, and it happened to them twice in effect. change borders of zones around like electorates every few years? also not going to work and many unintended consequences/complexities.

do YOU want Collingwood/WC/Crows scouts sniffing around your zone paying parents under the covers to move when the talented kids are 15 years old or to send them to live with uncles/aunts who live in "the right zone" under the cover of, say, just to think up another corrupt practice, "scholarships" to expensive private schools? we will not be able to afford such deceptions, nor is that behavior in our DNA.

that's well before anyone questions such a system in court. no lawyer but surely for a professional sport a draft+cap with free agency provisions system would hold up better than a zones-based system.

Speculating much more long term... because of all the inequities listed above I also think zones - eventually - lead to a single, State based team here in SA. Ironic, considering there is only one club outside Vic with any historical connection to zones. Whatever. **** that outcome.

<insert chicken little gif here>

 

[*PAF]

I like the idea of zones.
Bad zone equals bad club set up. I am sure you can find examples of zones given to clubs because they were meant to be crap but years later everybody wanted them.

Collingwood sniffing? They do now.

 

[Holden Hillbilly]

Port can have the west coast of SA and the Crows can have the south east.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

The academies will be around for ages.

Half the Australian people live in Qld and NSW which means half the talent pool for potential players live there - maybe more if you look at birth rates and male-female ratios. There isnt the culture of the game to attract those kids to the game in huge numbers up north- especially the best athletes. And the current talent pool is spread thinner over 18 clubs instead of 16. But a well structured academy program that gives a kid a well structured career path will attract kids and their parents especially in a high cost place like Sydney who know their kids have the chance to make big $$. And the AFL are better placed, better resourced and better experienced to do this compared to RL and RU and even soccer, although a decent 16 year old soccer kid could go off to Europe on a million dollar sign up fee. AFL cant compete against these few examples.

And the northern state teams need to get a decent pool of players from their home city/home state to help prevent the go home factor. Sydney have done bloody well in developing a stay in Sydney culture, because its the biggest, most fast paced city in Oz. Brisvegas doesnt have that attraction so when things arent booming on field, the go home factor is huge. Who wants to live in the real western Sydney suburbs when they are drafted up as an 18 year old? They originally were going to be housed at Blacktown. So a GWS academy helps get over that issue. [edit basically covering the ground that western royboy wrote about in the General AFL Talk thread about Lions]

Last year and this year we had 17 SA raised players who initially were drafted from a SANFL club on our list. That is the sort of numbers the 4 northern states have to get to.

Then there is the economics. TV advertising rates in Sydney are about 25% higher than Melbourne. If the AFL want to maximise TV and media rights value they need decent ratings in Sydney. 2 strong Sydney based teams with having minimal go home factor in their playing group because they can have squads with 40% of their players. Brisbane TV advertising rates are higher than in Perth and Adelaide so ditto there as well.

So we the supporters might reckon its rubbish but our club has to be aware of the economics and politics involved by the AFL and be agile and move quickly to take as much advantage of the situation and push for us to have a fully blown academy set up. North Melbourne before the 1973 season voted against the 10 year rule, the new "free agency" rules the VFL proposed. Once it was voted in, they got off their arse, got innovative, filled a few brown paper bags and got a first mover advantage which led to them building such a great squad that in 1974 they made their first VFL GF in 24 years and then next year won their first Flag, 50 years after they were admitted to the VFL and were a force for almost a decade.

So as we move to each club having their own academies, we should start a push and be innovative and ask for our Indigenous academy be open to us to have first pick just like the northern clubs academy but having to give up picks to match bids by other clubs. Use the moral equivalent of the northern clubs economic argument for their academies existing. Push that we are working closely with the Gerard Neesham running the Clontarf Foundation which started off working with the Clontarf Aboriginal Academy which has spread its wings across WA and then across Oz -except South Oz to have 68 schools/academies. We are doing something about closing the gap between indigenous Australians and non indigenous Australians.

So if Brandan Parfitt is such a talent that he will be a top 30 or so pick next year, and we know all about him both football and non football life as per the story of club's website yesterday, then we get first crack at him because we get off our arse the next few months and get the Indigenous academy added to the 4 northern states ones.

 

[Portology]

Port can have the west coast of SA and the Crows can have the south east.

Half the Mont Gambierans I know are North supporters, and "the Borderlands" are exactly where the starving Vic clubs will seek to expand their little fiefdoms when they run out of serfs.

Expect the next Premier of Victoria to seek to move the State border to the Murray "where it should have been all along".

Would swap for Broken Hill & NT

Which brings me to REH's post. Good call suggesting we say **** the system and just bargain for a leg up based on our prior innovation and hard work. Even if the advantage is only temporary, even if we only get a few gems out of it before the competition inevitably dilute the advantages per what has happened to the Northern academies, COLA, Footy Ops spending caps, etc, the "damage" would be done for at least one premiership window's worth of players. It's certainly arguable in our favour terms of the bogus concept of "fairness" and "credit" for good work but in the real world of negotiation I'm not sure which sort of chips we actually hold. Kochie has some political connections, getting governments at multiple levels even more enmeshed into our Academy workings is probably our best play - at least defensively - would make it hard to dismantle and harder for the AFL to refuse if we moved to bargain for some sort of advantage out of continuing our extra spend on it.

 

[crazy_big_al]

We have a new father son prospect. Stewart Dew has had a son today. Welcome to the PAFC family Jack.

 

[Holden Hillbilly]

We have a new father son prospect. Stewart Dew has had a son today. Welcome to the PAFC family Jack.

180 games for Port and 26 for the other mob.

F/S candidate.

 

[NoddyHolder]

Jack Dew doesn't really roll off the tongue very smoothly

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Jack Dew doesn't really roll off the tongue very smoothly

Better call him Jackie then.

 

[Hellgood]

The quality and quantity of genuine draft hopefuls from New South Wales and Queensland is certainly appearing to be on the increase each year.

Excellent for the game to have this additional influx in talent, but obviously it will lead to a flashpoint where the whole academy/zones thing becomes too much of an unfair advantage.

Taking a step back and looking at things from a neutral point of view, I can see why it is important for the QLD/NSW clubs to be strongly represented by locals and believe that this will have the subsequent effect of bringing new talent to the game that otherwise we may not have had access to. So I understand and accept what the AFL has been trying to achieve here, but it will in all likelihood get messy when the flashpoint inevitably arrives. Sydney/GWS/Bris/GC will have a fair argument that they have invested big money into systems that have actually been successful, everyone else will validly point out that it is an unfair advantage. So the AFL essentially has the option of re-introducing zones to bring it all into line (which IMO opens a huge can of worms) or abolishing the programs and running the risk of the pathways drying up. Someone much smarter than I am will hopefully find a solution that ensures the pathways become self sustaining but mitigating the advantage of the respective clubs.

I think on the whole, clubs are open to taking a collaborative approach to developing the game at the grassroots even if the benefits are eventually shared. Not wanting to get drunk off our own bathwater, but I think we do an outstanding job with the community programs we run and are genuine in our engagement. Over here in WA, both clubs through the WAFC are pretty active and whilst there are always people who say they need to do more, I think they do have an impact.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Looks like Port Adelaide will be well-placed with Gillon McLachlan pushing for club-zoned multicultural and Indigenous academies.

The AFL will radically restructure the development of young football talent across Australia with the creation of club-zoned multicultural and Indigenous academies.

In a move that has been viewed as a precursor to the return of club-branded development zones, the competition is expected to allocate a significant portion of the 2017-2022 broadcast rights money in a bid to attract under-represented talented boys into the game.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ung-talent-20151027-gkk0vd.html#ixzz3pm9oGopD

 

[Holden Hillbilly]

Port can have the west coast of SA and the Crows can have the south east.

Port get the Barossa, Northern Hills, Mid North and West Coast of SA.

Crows get the Riverland, Southern Hills, South Coast and South East of SA.

 

[Garibaldi Red]

Port get the Barossa, Northern Hills, Mid North and West Coast of SA.

Crows get the Riverland, Southern Hills, South Coast and South East of SA.

Tell them to Eff off, we have the mainland and they can have KI, Wedge Island etc.

 

[*PAF]

Cannot be as simple as state based.

 

[Holden Hillbilly]

Tell them to Eff off, we have the mainland and they can have KI, Wedge Island etc.

Granite Island?