Review 'Father Time' caught up with Cloke

PhiloBeddoe

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It appears his mobility is severely underrated on here. Whenever KPD's speak about playing on him they talk about not only his bulk, but also his ability to blow them up with his tank.

As has been discussed at length in this thread his role had changed in the latter stages of his time with us (rightly or wrongly). Beforehand though he was capable of covering the ground as well as any of those fowards just in a different manner.

At the Bulldogs he'll most likely return to a more free wheeling role so whether the father time comment is proven will be shown in time one thing I'm sure about is that we'll get a quick answer on his mobility. Having shed weight I'm very confident with my assesment, but we'll see.
My concern for him is with the way the Dogs can move the ball. He may be doing a lot of junk running in that free wheel type role. The mental strength aspect would be tested in any player who is bypassed when he's done a s**t load of running.
With reference to another post of yours mentioning Richo. I watched him because I loved his work rate. A lot was made of his reactions to being ignored. I remember being puzzled thinking "Richo, why the * would you lead there, no wonder they ignored you?". IMO, he the most out of limited football nouse. Upon reflection, can't knock him.
The dogs have just won a flag and would back in their current style. He'll either fit the current plan or won't. I can't see Bevo accomodating him by changing the way they play. Then again, it's all the great unknown.
 

doodles98

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we were too "Cloke focussed", for much of the last 5 years- and that needed to change as so many here have previously and correctly observed.
Totally agree with you here Spinny. The "kick it deep to Trav" gameplan started in 2013 and was a terrible feature of our play for the next few years with horrible results.
So the real point you are making is that Bucks IS in fact flexible enough to eventually change his own gameplans when they fail.:thumbsu:o_O. Some posters had their doubts and considered him too stubborn. But this just shows he gets there eventually.
 
Totally agree with you here Spinny. The "kick it deep to Trav" gameplan started in 2013 and was a terrible feature of our play for the next few years with horrible results.
So the real point you are making is that Bucks IS in fact flexible enough to eventually change his own gameplans when they fail.:thumbsu:o_O. Some posters had their doubts and considered him too stubborn. But this just shows he gets there eventually.

It could also show that Bucks was unable to design a game plan that utilised Cloke effectively.
 

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4 years of knee tendinitis is possible but unlikely. I'd also suggest that him bulking up whilst suffering an extended knee tendinitis must have been complete incompetence from two different fitness departments.

I didn't say it was 4 years of tendinitis, I said that was the rumour doing the rounds as to the reason he became a stay at home forward.
 

doodles98

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It could also show that Bucks was unable to design a game plan that utilised Cloke effectively.



Yes Jmac.. it does show that. That said.. Cloke didn't help by becoming sulky and half arsed in his efforts in his last few seasons.
 
Yes Jmac.. it does show that. That said.. Cloke didn't help by becoming sulky and half arsed in his efforts in his last few seasons.

Possibly. I think the real reason for Cloke being traded is that Bucks doesn't think he needs him anymore and that the forward line will function better without him. Let's hope he's correct!
 
Possibly. I think the real reason for Cloke being traded is that Bucks doesn't think he needs him anymore and that the forward line will function better without him. Let's hope he's correct!

I think Cloke felt the p̶a̶r̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶p̶o̶t̶, l̶u̶c̶r̶a̶t̶i̶v̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶t̶r̶a̶c̶t̶ forward 50 was his and if he couldn't own it, he would put in feeble efforts.

But like a stubborn partner who realises they were pig-headed, he'll probably put a better effort in in his next dalliance.
 

doodles98

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Possibly. I think the real reason for Cloke being traded is that Bucks doesn't think he needs him anymore and that the forward line will function better without him. Let's hope he's correct!
I'm bullish about the talent and depth we have in smalls on the forward line and hope we plan things around them as the focus for our i50 entries.
With Cloke gone though, we are now overly dependent on some very uncertain key forwards so I would question Buck's judgement there if that was the case. I think Bucks wanted him to stay on the list for this reason. But Cloke wanted out... and was playing like it all last year (bar 1 advertisement game).

Cloke needed to adapt his game faster, lift his workload and output and not sulk. The coaches needed to have better man management skills and help and support him through the process better than they did. It was a fail on both sides and a loss on both sides as a result.
 

mike123

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we were too "Cloke focussed", for much of the last 5 years- and that needed to change as so many here have previously and correctly observed.

I agree but Cloke wasn't the problem. The problem was we didn't have a good key forward to partner him besides a little cameo from Reid. Some of that had to do with our second key forward also being the second ruck, as opposed the third forward 2nd ruck. With Moore coming up and having Jesse White as the third tall 2nd ruck we could still have a gameplan that suits Cloke and not be too Cloke focused.
 
With Cloke gone though, we are now overly dependent on some very uncertain key forwards so I would question Buck's judgement there if that was the case. I think Bucks wanted him to stay on the list for this reason. But Cloke wanted out... and was playing like it all last year (bar 1 advertisement game).

I take a different view here. I suspect it was much more the coaching panel deciding to reduce reliance on Cloke that was the trigger. Ultimately they decided he was not required and really engineered the departure for a number of reasons including salary considerations.

I also feel it's more likely to become the wrong decision. Cloke has had one bad season 2016 and that was on the back of the coaching panels change in position partly. Still a very good KPF can be allowed one bad season and then bounce back

At the Dogs Cloke is likely to encounter a couple of advantageous postions compared to Collingwood 2014-16. One he is likely to be playing in a top 4 teams which makes the KPFs role much easier. He will be playing in a team that moves the ball quickly and in a team with good delivery by foot. My suspicion is he will return to 50+ goals a season immediately.

Darcy Moore has also been given a huge load to carry now for a young KPF and I think that is the other thing we will miss by Cloke being gone.
 

doodles98

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I take a different view here. I suspect it was much more the coaching panel deciding to reduce reliance on Cloke that was the trigger. Ultimately they decided he was not required and really engineered the departure for a number of reasons including salary considerations.

I also feel it's more likely to become the wrong decision. Cloke has had one bad season 2016 and that was on the back of the coaching panels change in position partly. Still a very good KPF can be allowed one bad season and then bounce back

At the Dogs Cloke is likely to encounter a couple of advantageous postions compared to Collingwood 2014-16. One he is likely to be playing in a top 4 teams which makes the KPFs role much easier. He will be playing in a team that moves the ball quickly and in a team with good delivery by foot. My suspicion is he will return to 50+ goals a season immediately.

Darcy Moore has also been given a huge load to carry now for a young KPF and I think that is the other thing we will miss by Cloke being gone.
If that's the case then it's a massive call by Bucks to move Cloke on with our KPF stocks and his tenuous hold on his job.
We have had our discussions about Cloke for a few years now GC. Your reading of his output in 2014 and 2015 differs from mine. Yes he statistically did OK, and that is perhaps the point. He should have been doing much better than just OK in his prime years. Being played deep the way he was certainly did not help him out. But to me he was suffering from good old fashioned complacency and was turning up and going through the motions and playing without real passion or intent. He needed the rocket well before 2016 but the club was behind the curve and only dropped him last year in his poor form. It backfired and just made him sulk and want to leave is how I see it.
Cloke is one of the best one grab contested marks I've seen play. He has a phenomenal tank and work ethic when motivated. He is undoubtedly still capable of 50 plus goal seasons. If our coaches wanted him moved on for pick 76 then it speaks volumes about their ability to make the most of players and their approach to list management and maximizing trade values. Whatever the scenario was in reality; and whatever angle you look at it from; it is not one that reflects well on the club in my view.
 
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I agree but Cloke wasn't the problem. The problem was we didn't have a good key forward to partner him besides a little cameo from Reid. Some of that had to do with our second key forward also being the second ruck, as opposed the third forward 2nd ruck. With Moore coming up and having Jesse White as the third tall 2nd ruck we could still have a gameplan that suits Cloke and not be too Cloke focused.

Out of curiosity, how many full games did Cloke, White and Moore play together? Can't recall too many over the past two years.
 

mike123

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Out of curiosity, how many full games did Cloke, White and Moore play together? Can't recall too many over the past two years.
Which is exactly my point.

Edit: Cloke and Moore's best game for the year came when all three played.
 

PhiloBeddoe

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I take a different view here. I suspect it was much more the coaching panel deciding to reduce reliance on Cloke that was the trigger. Ultimately they decided he was not required and really engineered the departure for a number of reasons including salary considerations.

I also feel it's more likely to become the wrong decision. Cloke has had one bad season 2016 and that was on the back of the coaching panels change in position partly. Still a very good KPF can be allowed one bad season and then bounce back

At the Dogs Cloke is likely to encounter a couple of advantageous postions compared to Collingwood 2014-16. One he is likely to be playing in a top 4 teams which makes the KPFs role much easier. He will be playing in a team that moves the ball quickly and in a team with good delivery by foot. My suspicion is he will return to 50+ goals a season immediately.

Darcy Moore has also been given a huge load to carry now for a young KPF and I think that is the other thing we will miss by Cloke being gone.
Where do you think he'll play? Deep, high or somewhere in between?
If defenders get on their bikes and roam up the ground, he'll have to follow. On a turn over, as an opposition supporter, I wouldn't mind him getting the ball up on the wings as I don't rate his field kicking as much as others. I think 50+ is a bit of a stretch but that's not to say that he can't make a positive impact.
 
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Where do you think he'll play? Deep, high or somewhere in between?
If defenders get on their bikes and roam up the ground, he'll have to follow. On a turn over, as an opposition supporter, I wouldn't mind him getting the ball up on the wings as I don't rate his field kicking as much as others. I think 50+ is a bit of a stretch but that's not to say that he can't make a positive impact.

I think the Dogs' one weakness last year was a "linkman" who could be relied upon to take a grab 50-100m from goal. Hell, they were playing Zaine Cordy at CHF. I can see Cloke having value and being successful in that role, if he's fully fit. That'll probably result in a lower goal tally, but it's probably where he'll do his best work for them. I feel like if they try to use him as a goalsquare FF and expect 50+ goals, it's going to unsettle too many of their other moving parts and just end in tears.
 

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I'm not gonna miss Cloke. But we're sure as hell better off with him than we're with Mason Cox.
 
I'm bullish about the talent and depth we have in smalls on the forward line and hope we plan things around them as the focus for our i50 entries.
With Cloke gone though, we are now overly dependent on some very uncertain key forwards so I would question Buck's judgement there if that was the case. I think Bucks wanted him to stay on the list for this reason. But Cloke wanted out... and was playing like it all last year (bar 1 advertisement game).

Cloke needed to adapt his game faster, lift his workload and output and not sulk. The coaches needed to have better man management skills and help and support him through the process better than they did. It was a fail on both sides and a loss on both sides as a result.

I knew on the 1st Aug that Collingwood were going to trade Cloke.
 
Where do you think he'll play? Deep, high or somewhere in between?
If defenders get on their bikes and roam up the ground, he'll have to follow. On a turn over, as an opposition supporter, I wouldn't mind him getting the ball up on the wings as I don't rate his field kicking as much as others. I think 50+ is a bit of a stretch but that's not to say that he can't make a positive impact.
Agree, I'm not sure him running out to the 50m mark, marking, wheeling around with the arch of the QE2 & letting fly a bomb to a pack situation is really what the bulldogs need.
 

doodles98

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I knew on the 1st Aug that Collingwood were going to trade Cloke.
Care to share how you knew that back then? Do you also know why it was felt we were better off with pick 76 rather than Travis Cloke on the list?
 
l personally think cloke will do well at first at the bullies, a chf linking up, allowing him to
get on his bike and his confidence will be quite good. but when he starts to miss gettable goals
close in, or gets a niggle or two then we will see if cloke can work his way through it, or slide back to the vfl.
 

OniAu

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Cloke wouldnt be the first big forward to have the game go past him.

Whitnall was a gun in his earlier years and was horrid later in his career, didnt he finish up at 27?
 
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