Society/Culture Feminism - 2017 Thread - Pt I

[DemonTim]

Same reply then...


Fine I'll break it down even more...

I can think, or feel I'm the best poster on bigfooty... that doesn't make it real...

Feeling that you're a rape victim doesn't mean you are a rape victim.

Feeling like you've been raped because the aircon is not set at the right temperature, doesn't mean you are a rape victim.

I agree.

But that doesn't make rape objective, if a woman claims to be a rape victim to you, is she objectively a rape victim?

 

[DemonTim]

I'm also not sure why you'd use a subjective example (best poster on bigfooty) as an argument against.

 

[CM86]

I agree.

But that doesn't make rape objective, if a woman claims to be a rape victim to you, is she objectively a rape victim?

What???

I said it isn't subjective.

If you have been raped, you are a rape victim. Where is the subjectivity???

A woman claiming to be a rape victim:...
Was she raped?

If yes she is a rape victim...
If not, then she is not a rape victim.​

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

What???

I said it isn't subjective.

If you have been raped, you are a rape victim. Where is the subjectivity???

A woman claiming to be a rape victim:...
Was she raped?

If yes she is a rape victim...
If not, then she is not a rape victim.​

In other news, bound to shock some people in this thread, 1 + 1 = 2

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

I'd say there is, are women who can't prove they were raped not victims because the law says they're not?
Isn't the whole point about how the justice system doesn't tend to get as many convictions as it should?

Of course they are victims, they are just not victims in a legal sense. Just the same as a rape victim who does not report it is still a rape victim.

 

[DemonTim]

What???

I said it isn't subjective.

If you have been raped, you are a rape victim. Where is the subjectivity???

A woman claiming to be a rape victim:...
Was she raped?

If yes she is a rape victim...
If not, then she is not a rape victim.​

Yes I'm aware you said that. Not sure why that was even part of your response

When is she a rape victim to you? How will you know if the answer to your question is yes or no?

Real life scenario: my best friend from high school was accused of rape. He claims it wasn't. They both have the same version of events
They were kissing, they started to do more, he asked if she was sure, she said she doesn't know if they should, then kept going. After she said that she never consented and that her saying I don't know was a lack of consent. Is she a rape victim?

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Yes I'm aware you said that. Not sure why that was even part of your response

When is she a rape victim to you? How will you know if the answer to your question is yes or no?

Real life scenario: my best friend from high school was accused of rape. He claims it wasn't. They both have the same version of events
They were kissing, they started to do more, he asked if she was sure, she said she doesn't know if they should, then kept going. After she said that she never consented and that her saying I don't know was a lack of consent. Is she a rape victim?

There is no way anyone can be expected to make a judgement based on such little information.

 

[CM86]

Yes I'm aware you said that. Not sure why that was even part of your response

When is she a rape victim to you? How will you know if the answer to your question is yes or no?

Real life scenario: my best friend from high school was accused of rape. He claims it wasn't. They both have the same version of events
They were kissing, they started to do more, he asked if she was sure, she said she doesn't know if they should, then kept going. After she said that she never consented and that her saying I don't know was a lack of consent. Is she a rape victim?

Holy s**t...

How I label someone based on my own thoughts and subjectivity has no actual relation to if they are a rape victim or not.



How can someone who has not and never will be raped, a rape victim?

 

[DemonTim]

There is no way anyone can be expected to make a judgement based on such little information.

What more information would be needed? I could probably provide it
They weren't dating at the time. Both sober. No drugs. Wore protection. Both had depression. She had anxiety.

 

[Jobe Watson]

What???

I said it isn't subjective.

If you have been raped, you are a rape victim. Where is the subjectivity???

A woman claiming to be a rape victim:...
Was she raped?

If yes she is a rape victim...
If not, then she is not a rape victim.​

I think the point is, how is anyone supposed to know who a "real" rape victim is then, apart from the victim themselves? If a woman says she was raped and the courts prove her case, is she a rape victim? All evidence would suggest yes, and she would be labelled as a rape victim in a legal sense, but in reality it does not definitively prove that a rape actually occurred.

So when I said "legitimate" rape victims, it was a descriptor being used to distinguish between actual victims of crime who have actually been sexually assaulted and those who make false claims, because as outsiders we cannot know the difference between the two most of the time.

 

[DemonTim]

Holy s**t...

How I label someone based on my own thoughts and subjectivity has no actual relation to if they are a rape victim or not.



How can someone who has not and never will be raped, a rape victim?

I'm not claiming they are. I'm simply saying "rape victim" is subjective, the law may deem there's no evidence of rape, that doesn't mean they aren't a rape victim. Someone may claim they are a victim, and yet not be.
Even the two people involved in the act may have completely different ideas about who is a rape victim.

How do you objectively define something that is often based on someone's word/opinion? If it was objective wouldn't no evidence mean they aren't a victim?

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

What more information would be needed? I could probably provide it
They weren't dating at the time. Both sober. No drugs. Wore protection. Both had depression. She had anxiety.

witness statements.

 

[DemonTim]

I think the point is, how is anyone supposed to know who a "real" rape victim is then, apart from the victim themselves? If a woman says she was raped and the courts prove her case, is she a rape victim? All evidence would suggest yes, and she would be labelled as a rape victim in a legal sense, but in reality it does not definitively prove that a rape actually occurred.

So when I said "legitimate" rape victims, it was a descriptor being used to distinguish between actual victims of crime who have actually been sexually assaulted and those who make false claims, because as outsiders we cannot know the difference between the two most of the time.

Basically this is what I'm saying. Even the persons belief may not mean rape though.

 

[Taylor]

Jesus christ. No one is telling anyone that they are not a rape victim.

It's like iqs halve the moment 'moderator' appears in ones profile.

Haha, you're a joke.

 

[DemonTim]

witness statements.

From the two involved. I gave a short run down of it. Their stories were identical. She believes it was rape as per that, he said it wasn't due to her being the one who continued the act.

You've probably got more info than most cases release in the media.

 

[CM86]

I think the point is, how is anyone supposed to know who a "real" rape victim is then, apart from the victim themselves? If a woman says she was raped and the courts prove her case, is she a rape victim? All evidence would suggest yes, and she would be labelled as a rape victim in a legal sense, but in reality it does not definitively prove that a rape actually occurred.

So when I said "legitimate" rape victims, it was a descriptor being used to distinguish between actual victims of crime who have actually been sexually assaulted and those who make false claims, because as outsiders we cannot know the difference between the two most of the time.

I'm not claiming they are. I'm simply saying "rape victim" is subjective, the law may deem there's no evidence of rape, that doesn't mean they aren't a rape victim. Someone may claim they are a victim, and yet not be.
Even the two people involved in the act may have completely different ideas about who is a rape victim.

How do you objectively define something that is often based on someone's word/opinion? If it was objective wouldn't no evidence mean they aren't a victim?

This is why I'm pointing out that being a rape victim, isn't subjective...

If someone makes a false claim, and it somehow is found to be true in court... that does not make the person a rape victim.

Same as it being rejected in court doesn't suddenly mean the person wasn't raped.


If you try to make it as a purely legal label, sure it's subjective. All labels are.

But, you have either been raped, or you haven't. Regardless of anyone's subjective opinion on the matter.


I'm out. I don't think I can make it any clearer.

 

[DemonTim]

This is why I'm pointing out that being a rape victim, isn't subjective...

If someone makes a false claim, and it somehow is found to be true in court... that does not make the person a rape victim.

Same as it being rejected in court doesn't suddenly mean the person wasn't raped.


If you try to make it as a purely legal label, sure it's subjective. All labels are.

But, you have either been raped, or you haven't. Regardless of anyone's subjective opinion on the matter.


I'm out. I don't think I can make it any clearer.

But the entire concept of labelling someone a rape victim is subjective, you've just admitted that. Legally rape is subjective. Defining someone as a rape victim is subjective. I don't think anyone has even claimed that the actual physical act of rape is subjective, as if we all watched a rape, that was clearly a rape, it would be subjective to determine it. That's not even what's being discussed.

I'm not even sure why it's getting your back up so much, it seems you agree with the point, but are arguing against something no one is saying.

 

[CM86]

But the entire concept of labelling someone a rape victim is subjective, you've just admitted that. Legally rape is subjective. Defining someone as a rape victim is subjective. I don't think anyone has even claimed that the actual physical act of rape is subjective, as if we all watched a rape, that was clearly a rape, it would be subjective to determine it. That's not even what's being discussed.

I'm not even sure why it's getting your back up so much, it seems you agree with the point, but are arguing against something no one is saying.

No, I've been saying from the get go that being the victim of a rape isn't subjective. You have either been raped, or you haven't.

If you want to argue with someone that labels are subjective go for it. I'll agree with you.

But being the victim of a rape is not subjective.

My back is up, because I cannot understand why it's so difficult to grasp such a simple fact.

You can apply any label to anyone. It doesn't change reality.

Being the victim of a rape is not subjective...
Labeling someone a rape victim is subjective, as are all labels...

 

[DemonTim]

No, I've been saying from the get go that being the victim of a rape isn't subjective. You have either been raped, or you haven't.

If you want to argue with someone that labels are subjective go for it. I'll agree with you.

But being the victim of a rape is not subjective.

My back is up, because I cannot understand why it's so difficult to grasp such a simple fact.

You can apply any label to anyone. It doesn't change reality.

Being the victim of a rape is not subjective...
Labeling someone a rape victim is subjective, as are all labels...

But the only way to say someone is or isn't a rape victim, is to make a subjective decision.

Although doesn't the definition of rape change in different places? Doesn't an objective fact need to be proven?

No one has disputed your fact. Not one person. You're off on a tangent that doesn't relate to a point anyone is making.

 

[CM86]

But the only way to say someone is or isn't a rape victim, is to make a subjective decision.

Although doesn't the definition of rape change in different places? Doesn't an objective fact need to be proven?

No one has disputed your fact. Not one person. You're off on a tangent that doesn't relate to a point anyone is making.

Good, we all agree that being a rape victim is not subjective.

 

[DemonTim]

Good, we all agree that being a rape victim is not subjective.

So what were you arguing against exactly?

Personally, how do you base your decision on who you do and don't consider a rape victim?

 

[CM86]

So what were you arguing against exactly?

Personally, how do you base your decision on who you do and don't consider a rape victim?

FMD.

One is not a victim just because one makes an allegation - which is what you are arguing - one is a victim if the incident occurred. I really fail to see what is so hard to understand about this.

I believe it is subjective, as in the person making the accusation will feel they are a victim.

Kynge points out that unless a person is actually the victim of a rape... they are not a rape victim.
Tayl0r replies saying that it's subjective, and that the person making the accusation might feel they are a victim.

It's pointed out again that it isn't subjective... that labels are subjective, but you are not a rape victim unless you have been raped.
That one is not actually a rape victim, unless they have been raped. Sans subjectivity.

Then you joined in, agreeing with Tayl0r.

There is nothing subjective about being the victim of rape...

What the hell are you talking about?

I'd say there is, are women who can't prove they were raped not victims because the law says they're not?
Isn't the whole point about how the justice system doesn't tend to get as many convictions as it should?

I'm out.

 

[DemonTim]

Kynge points out that unless a person is actually the victim of a rape... they are not a rape victim.
Tayl0r replies saying that it's subjective, and that the person making the accusation might feel they are a victim.

It's pointed out again that it isn't subjective... that labels are subjective, but you are not a rape victim unless you have been raped.
That one is not actually a rape victim, unless they have been raped. Sans subjectivity.

Then you joined in, agreeing with Tayl0r.




I'm out.

Yes. You've said the I'm out thing before, if you're going to stop responding just stop. An announcement just screams attention.

Yes, because part of defining someone as something is subjective. You've literally agreed with the point being made, yet are still arguing about nothing. How will you, or I, or anyone else know if the rape is an objective fact?

You're cracking it over basically nothing. Ill ask again, doesn't an objective fact need to be proven? Isn't that part of what makes it an objective fact?

 

[Maggie5]

Kynge points out that unless a person is actually the victim of a rape... they are not a rape victim.
Tayl0r replies saying that it's subjective, and that the person making the accusation might feel they are a victim.

It's pointed out again that it isn't subjective... that labels are subjective, but you are not a rape victim unless you have been raped.
That one is not actually a rape victim, unless they have been raped. Sans subjectivity.

Then you joined in, agreeing with Tayl0r.




I'm out.

I am surprised to see Demon Tim back on SRP as I believe he has said he is outta here before.

 

[Jobe Watson]

Kynge points out that unless a person is actually the victim of a rape... they are not a rape victim.

No, but they can be labelled as a rape victim. The rest of society can view them as rape victims. They can be classified as rape victims in a legal sense.

Which is why I originally made the distinction. Of course anyone who is actually raped is a rape victim, and if you have never been raped then you aren't a rape victim. However, it is impossible for anyone other than that person and any possible offenders to know the truth (in most cases). So when I say "legitimate" rape victim I am referring to those people who were actually raped and who deserve justice, as opposed to anyone who just claims they were raped when they weren't yet gets labelled by society as a "rape victim" anyway.

All I was doing in the original post was distinguishing between actual rape victims and those who are only claiming to be. I'm not sure how 1 single word spawned two pages of discussion but anyway.