Society/Culture Feminism - 2017 Thread - Pt II

[ShanDog]

The potential mother is an actual living breathing, biologically independent girl/woman though......Whereas the foetus if fully dependent upon her womb.

Therefore.....One has rights & the other doesn't.

We have no choice about our parents or the station or situation into which we are born into.....Or not born into, as it holds....Such is the nature of all life.

I still don't like the potential v actual separation in this case. It fails to account for the fact that a perfectly healthy baby born after the appropriate gestation period is still 100% reliant on the mother to survive for years. If self sufficiency is the arbitrator, it will be different for quite literally everyone.

 

[Baby Duck]

The potential mother is an actual living breathing, biologically independent girl/woman though......Whereas the foetus if fully dependent upon her womb.

Therefore.....One has rights & the other doesn't.

We have no choice about our parents or the station or situation into which we are born into.....Or not born into, as it holds....Such is the nature of all life.

So following that logic it should be fine to euthanise down syndrome folks at any stage, or just anyone that is dependant on a parent for their lifetime? Hmmm. I dont think the decision of who gets to live and who does not should be made by anyone. Then again, things have always been that way. Abortion, euthanaisa, forced and voluntary sterility, licensing to have children, one child policies, all of it has the same familiar and grubby fingerprints all over it.

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[Scallop Industry Thug]

So following that logic it should be fine to euthanise down syndrome folks at any stage, or just anyone that is dependant on a parent for their lifetime? Hmmm. I dont think the decision of who gets to live and who does not should be made by anyone. Then again, things have always been that way. Abortion, euthanaisa, forced and voluntary sterility, licensing to have children, one child policies, all of it has the same familiar and grubby fingerprints all over it.

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

In his example there is no person, in the example you have presented there is a person.

 

[Snake_Baker]

The abortion issue should be fixed prior to the breeding process.

Ethical dilemma over.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I still don't like the potential v actual separation in this case. It fails to account for the fact that a perfectly healthy baby born after the appropriate gestation period is still 100% reliant on the mother to survive for years. If self sufficiency is the arbitrator, it will be different for quite literally everyone.

I think the fact that there are time constraints & restrictions (Not to mention moral & health factors to consider) on the legality of an abortion, takes into consideration the level of maturation necessary in the foetus, before society deems that the potential baby has crossed the line of rights versus no rights....What that precise cut off point (Probably a poor pun) should be, is not really for me to say.....However, we deem that the woman has full say & legality over the yes or No up to a reasonable point, prefaced upon the best medical advise of experts & obstetricians in the medical profession....Such people are clearly best placed to make such informed judgement calls.

As to your 'dependent' point....Most, if not all of us are dependent upon each other & society indirectly for our survival, health & prosperity....But this in no way means that our rights are abrogated.....When it comes to abortion & the foetus, the notion of dependency & potentiality are merely 2 factors among many others to consider.

 

[Taylor]

In his example there is no person, in the example you have presented there is a person.

I'm not sure that's objective. Applying thresholds to insulate the reality of a human life being ended is ethical gymnastics in my subjective opinion.

I don't think anyone walks into an abortion clinic waiting for a high five that they are having a clean out, so I see why it's important to help people backed into a corner from the grim reality of their choice - but the abortion is usually the symptom of the real issue, the last step in a shitty process that's been rolling along.

It's just a shame it costs a human life to press reset.

If the church could invent a system where an unwanted baby could be transferred to a machine that would carry it to birth (or even longer if it makes for a healthier result) that would go a long way to sorting the issue, but it would create another.

 

[ShanDog]

I think the fact that there are time constraints & restrictions (Not to mention moral & health factors to consider) on the legality of an abortion, takes into consideration the level of maturation necessary in the foetus, before society deems that the potential baby has crossed the line of rights versus no rights....What that precise cut off point (Probably a poor pun) should be, is not really for me to say.....However, we deem that the woman has full say & legality over the yes or No up to a reasonable point, prefaced upon the best medical advise of experts & obstetricians in the medical profession....Such people are clearly best placed to make such informed judgement calls.

As to your 'dependent' point....Most, if not all of us are dependent upon each other & society indirectly for our survival, health & prosperity....But this in no way means that our rights are abrogated.....When it comes to abortion & the foetus, the notion of dependency & potentiality are merely 2 factors among many others to consider.

There are some significant differences around the world about when an abortion can take place (and I believe it also differs from state to state here). This alone is a red flag about the subjectivity of life's beginnings and the morality of it all. It's not an easy thing to consider. I'm probably in a small minority who also thinks the lack of power for the other parent is also a concern, but that stems from my perspective of the fetus being a life from much earlier than most places deem (predicated on the cut-off for legal abortion being that definiton of life).

On your second point - of course our lives are dramatically entwined in others right up until our death, whenever that may be. However, the key difference is that at a certain age we gain a level of autonomy and agency in that process. An infant has zero ability to make choices and influence their own life. It's a fair distinction to make IMO.

 

[owen87]

In his example there is no person, in the example you have presented there is a person.

At what point is there a person?

 

[Procrastinator35]

There are some significant differences around the world about when an abortion can take place (and I believe it also differs from state to state here). This alone is a red flag about the subjectivity of life's beginnings and the morality of it all. It's not an easy thing to consider. I'm probably in a small minority who also thinks the lack of power for the other parent is also a concern, but that stems from my perspective of the fetus being a life from much earlier than most places deem (predicated on the cut-off for legal abortion being that definiton of life).

On your second point - of course our lives are dramatically entwined in others right up until our death, whenever that may be. However, the key difference is that at a certain age we gain a level of autonomy and agency in that process. An infant has zero ability to make choices and influence their own life. It's a fair distinction to make IMO.

Here's the wiki page on the status of Abortion in Oz, from state to state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Australia

State-by-state legality of abortion in Australia.
Legal on request
+
Exemptions, due to legal definitions, in criminal law for maternal life, rape, health, fetal defects, mental health, economic factors, and/or social factors
+
Legal for maternal life, rape, health, fetal defects, and/or mental health
+
Exemptions, due to legal definitions, in criminal law for maternal life, health, and/or mental health

State or Territory Status Exceptions
Australian Capital Territory Legal and accessible Must be provided by medical doctor. Health Minister may set exclusion zones for protests.[14]
New South Wales and Norfolk Island Criminal offence
subject to CES v Superclinics Australia Pty Ltd (1995)[15] Legal if a doctor finds any economic, social or medical ground or reason that abortion is required to avoid serious danger to the pregnant woman's life or to her physical or mental health.[14]
Northern Territory Legal. Accessible up to 14 weeks.
Legal for up to 24 weeks’ gestation, implementing a 150-metre "safe access zone", removing the requirement of parental approval for abortions and providing early medical abortions with tablets. After 14 weeks two doctors must approve; after 24 weeks illegal, except if needed to save the woman's life.[16] The law went into effect on July 1, 2017.[17][18]
Queensland Criminal offence
subject to McGuire ruling Legal up to 22 weeks if necessary to preserve the woman from a serious danger to her life or health beyond the normal dangers of pregnancy and childbirth or if the foetus has a defect which is considered to be "inconsistent" with life.[14]
South Australia Legal, but restricted Legal up to 28 weeks if two doctors agree that a woman’s physical and/or mental health endangered by pregnancy, or for serious foetal abnormality. Abortion must take place in a hospital.[14]
Tasmania Legal. Accessible up to 16 weeks. Beyond 16 weeks legal with two doctors' approval. Illegal to protest within 150m of an abortion service.[14]
Victoria Legal. Accessible up to 24 weeks. Beyond 24 weeks legal if two doctors agree. Illegal to protest within 150m of an abortion service.[14]
Western Australia Legal. Accessible up to 20 weeks. Very restricted after 20 weeks.[14] Some restrictions for under 16yrs (parental notification)

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

At what point is there a person?

Not when the overwhelming number of abortions happen.

 

[Taylor]

Not when the overwhelming number of abortions happen.

I'll try and remember this comment the next time you argue against a system that has been doing what it does for a long time.

 

[ShanDog]

Here's the wiki page on the status of Abortion in Oz, from state to state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Australia

State-by-state legality of abortion in Australia.
Legal on request
+
Exemptions, due to legal definitions, in criminal law for maternal life, rape, health, fetal defects, mental health, economic factors, and/or social factors
+
Legal for maternal life, rape, health, fetal defects, and/or mental health
+
Exemptions, due to legal definitions, in criminal law for maternal life, health, and/or mental health

State or Territory Status Exceptions
Australian Capital Territory Legal and accessible Must be provided by medical doctor. Health Minister may set exclusion zones for protests.[14]
New South Wales and Norfolk Island Criminal offence
subject to CES v Superclinics Australia Pty Ltd (1995)[15] Legal if a doctor finds any economic, social or medical ground or reason that abortion is required to avoid serious danger to the pregnant woman's life or to her physical or mental health.[14]
Northern Territory Legal. Accessible up to 14 weeks.
Legal for up to 24 weeks’ gestation, implementing a 150-metre "safe access zone", removing the requirement of parental approval for abortions and providing early medical abortions with tablets. After 14 weeks two doctors must approve; after 24 weeks illegal, except if needed to save the woman's life.[16] The law went into effect on July 1, 2017.[17][18]
Queensland Criminal offence
subject to McGuire ruling Legal up to 22 weeks if necessary to preserve the woman from a serious danger to her life or health beyond the normal dangers of pregnancy and childbirth or if the foetus has a defect which is considered to be "inconsistent" with life.[14]
South Australia Legal, but restricted Legal up to 28 weeks if two doctors agree that a woman’s physical and/or mental health endangered by pregnancy, or for serious foetal abnormality. Abortion must take place in a hospital.[14]
Tasmania Legal. Accessible up to 16 weeks. Beyond 16 weeks legal with two doctors' approval. Illegal to protest within 150m of an abortion service.[14]
Victoria Legal. Accessible up to 24 weeks. Beyond 24 weeks legal if two doctors agree. Illegal to protest within 150m of an abortion service.[14]
Western Australia Legal. Accessible up to 20 weeks. Very restricted after 20 weeks.[14] Some restrictions for under 16yrs (parental notification)

Holy s**t, 28 weeks in SA (with caveat). A fetus at 28 weeks and healthy has very high survival rates if born prematurely. This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. It mentions that the mother's mental health can be determined a reason to abort (with two doctors agreeing). At 28 weeks is it not essentially trading one life for another? I've no idea whether any abortions have been done like that here in SA or whether that information is even accessible, but it's possible existence in accordance with the law is very concerning.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Holy s**t, 28 weeks in SA (with caveat). A fetus at 28 weeks and healthy has very high survival rates of born prematurely. This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. It mentions that the mother's mental health can be determined a reason to abort (with two doctors agreeing). At 28 weeks is it essentially not trading one life for another? Ive no idea whether any abortions have been done like that here in SA or whether that information is even accessible, but it's possible existence in accordance with the law is very concerning.

That equates to 6 & a half months.....That seems excessive, though as you say, with many stipulations applied.

 

[Taylor]

Holy s**t, 28 weeks in SA (with caveat). A fetus at 28 weeks and healthy has very high survival rates of born prematurely. This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. It mentions that the mother's mental health can be determined a reason to abort (with two doctors agreeing). At 28 weeks is it essentially not trading one life for another? Ive no idea whether any abortions have been done like that here in SA or whether that information is even accessible, but it's possible existence in accordance with the law is very concerning.

Premature babies that early can and do survive just fine, especially with the steroid treatment prior to boost the lung growth.

They could induce and have both lives.

 

[Snake_Baker]

My comrades in the white dust coats find a way to switch on and off fertilisation and the whole issue is resolved.

Science will deliver again!

 

[owen87]

Not when the overwhelming number of abortions happen.

You’re allowed to say you don’t know, it’s fine.

 

[Colin Northcott]

You’re allowed to say you don’t know, it’s fine.

Will never happen. Sidney thinks his conception is irrelevant.

Tend to agree in that case.

 

[Chief]

Premature babies that early can and do survive just fine, especially with the steroid treatment prior to boost the lung growth.

They could induce and have both lives.

Who becomes responsible for that life?

How much does that medical intervention cost? What else could that portion of the health budget be spent on?

This doesn’t jibe with the idea of total self reliance and agency. People making their own lives based on their own decisions.


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[Leeda]

Not when the overwhelming number of abortions happen.

no the point is viable personalities and this doesn't happen until birth.. it simply isn't bon...

 

[Taylor]

Who becomes responsible for that life?

How much does that medical intervention cost? What else could that portion of the health budget be spent on?

This doesn’t jibe with the idea of total self reliance and agency. People making their own lives based on their own decisions.


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I do see your point, but you're making it about 28 week old abortions. I got a baking from you about sexual abuse and that's something my family had plenty of so I'm not going to try and claw back some moral high ground but a baby is a baby, something like 4% of all children born in Australia are to couples who were struggling to have a child and sought IVF. There is a "market" out there of people who would care for a baby.

TMI time.
Back I had my late miscarriage I was sitting on the empty floor of my never to be born baby boys room with a handful of pills and a bottle of wine, literally ready to go. All alone in the house, my girlfriend had left for work a little while earlier. Its about to happen. My now stepdaughter, my girl, rang me up and told me she loved me and that she was so sad too. So I flushed the pills and cried my face off.

Anyway, if someone had put a newborn in my arms at that moment I would have never put it down. A little lost soul that we could match.

There is absolutely a market.

Regarding how much it costs to keep a child in a neonatal unit for six to twelve weeks it's going to knock on a large number but I'm of the belief that if you judge the worth of someone's life by how much it would cost to keep them around then you start down a path you won't like the end of.

The nation already has a duty to cover the health and education of Australians. Facilitating the death of one for convenience, let alone financial convenience makes me sick.

I know you're being facetious in a mocking sort of way because I think that people end up where they do because of choices they make, I also think that too much opportunity isn't a bad thing for young people, let them dream big. But give them a chance to have the choice.

I think I've bared enough of my soul over this subject now so I'll leave with one summation of my position.

I don't like it, I'd never do it, I'd fight for your right to be able to do it and won't judge you, but it's not something I could do. I used to think I could, but I can't. Having the choice made for me really distilled what really mattered to me.

 

[Chief]

Baking? And its probably a very lucky family that hasn't been touched by sexual abuse. Or miscarriage.

And now I have to be the heartless bloke with an opinion

I don't know where you got the 28 weeks thing?

We had embryos stored and had to make the choice every time we got a bill for storage. In the end it was something like $120 a year and it was - do we keep paying this at our age or just let them go? There were no options to donate them to another couple and really I don't know how I'd feel about having my own child out in the world without me. But that's totally emotional. So we had them destroyed, but it was not an easy decision. But we weren't going to have more kids in our 40's nor could I afford to pay for someone else to raise them.

If society is going to force someone to have a baby, society needs to pay for it. If society is going to take an embryo from a person and incubate it, then it is society's responsibility for the rest of its life. Not just the incubation.

Same goes for criminalising abortion. Society needs to pay the bill on the kids that result.

This win in Ireland is a great thing. It means safer options for women who need them for whatever reason. It releases citizens from an onerous, religious control over their own health and life.

I don't think the celebrations are for the deaths of kids - embryos aren't children in any case - but for the lives that will be saved by this legislation.

 

[Leeda]

The abortion issue should be fixed prior to the breeding process.

Ethical dilemma over.

quite right.. shuffle it over to the egg producer and then we shall qualify it to being a non entity if the producer decides that before it is born that it
will be what it will be but when it is not born that it won't be suffering unnecessarily and so we won't burden it with things it doesn't need to be
carrying..

thank you..

 

[cartwright]

Here's the wiki page on the status of Abortion in Oz, from state to state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Australia

State-by-state legality of abortion in Australia.
Legal on request
+
Exemptions, due to legal definitions, in criminal law for maternal life, rape, health, fetal defects, mental health, economic factors, and/or social factors
+
Legal for maternal life, rape, health, fetal defects, and/or mental health
+
Exemptions, due to legal definitions, in criminal law for maternal life, health, and/or mental health

State or Territory Status Exceptions
Australian Capital Territory Legal and accessible Must be provided by medical doctor. Health Minister may set exclusion zones for protests.[14]
New South Wales and Norfolk Island Criminal offence
subject to CES v Superclinics Australia Pty Ltd (1995)[15] Legal if a doctor finds any economic, social or medical ground or reason that abortion is required to avoid serious danger to the pregnant woman's life or to her physical or mental health.[14]
Northern Territory Legal. Accessible up to 14 weeks.
Legal for up to 24 weeks’ gestation, implementing a 150-metre "safe access zone", removing the requirement of parental approval for abortions and providing early medical abortions with tablets. After 14 weeks two doctors must approve; after 24 weeks illegal, except if needed to save the woman's life.[16] The law went into effect on July 1, 2017.[17][18]
Queensland Criminal offence
subject to McGuire ruling Legal up to 22 weeks if necessary to preserve the woman from a serious danger to her life or health beyond the normal dangers of pregnancy and childbirth or if the foetus has a defect which is considered to be "inconsistent" with life.[14]
South Australia Legal, but restricted Legal up to 28 weeks if two doctors agree that a woman’s physical and/or mental health endangered by pregnancy, or for serious foetal abnormality. Abortion must take place in a hospital.[14]
Tasmania Legal. Accessible up to 16 weeks. Beyond 16 weeks legal with two doctors' approval. Illegal to protest within 150m of an abortion service.[14]
Victoria Legal. Accessible up to 24 weeks. Beyond 24 weeks legal if two doctors agree. Illegal to protest within 150m of an abortion service.[14]
Western Australia Legal. Accessible up to 20 weeks. Very restricted after 20 weeks.[14] Some restrictions for under 16yrs (parental notification)

I believe nsw is also looking to introduce that it will be illegal to protest within 150m of a clinic.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I believe nsw is also looking to introduce that it will be illegal to protest within 150m of a clinic.

There's nothing worse or more paradoxical in this world, than seeing 'pro-lifers' with 'no life' making prats of themselves, by standing outside an abortion clinic with placards all day long.

The irony is well lost on em.

 

[owen87]

I don't think the celebrations are for the deaths of kids - embryos aren't children in any case - but for the lives that will be saved by this legislation.

Whilst I generally agree that the celebrations are more about the choices and options for people that currently don’t have them.

The bolded is always the contentious part; and depending on your views as to when an unborn child is considered a life, will heavily influence your stance on abortion, and at what point abortions should be available up to.