Society/Culture Feminism - 2017 Thread - Pt II

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Fadge

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TheWoodenSlug

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Can someone please explain to a simpleton like me why it's important to increase the number of women in STEM in the first place? That is, what are the benefits in doing so?
 

quotemokc

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Can someone please explain to a simpleton like me why it's important to increase the number of women in STEM in the first place? That is, what are the benefits in doing so?
So that little girls have a role model that isn't a supermodel, singer, celebrity trash etc.

Because all the big name scientists and engineers that we hear about all the time are men... /sarcasm.
 

the_interloper

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Can someone please explain to a simpleton like me why it's important to increase the number of women in STEM in the first place? That is, what are the benefits in doing so?
I don’t know either. Though on the Today show when discussing the lower entry requirements for females they were saying (I’m not making this up) that it will help women have things designed for them like shelves for their make up bags in bathrooms.
 

woota

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Can someone please explain to a simpleton like me why it's important to increase the number of women in STEM in the first place? That is, what are the benefits in doing so?
There is certainly no practical benefit to society at large. The only people it benefits are the feminists who push this type of legislation to satisfy their own ambitions of redressing structural inequality (the reality of "structural inequality" in this instance is people making different choices for themselves), and perhaps even brings them a step closer to achieving their ideological fantasy of destroying the patriarchy. When you begin to understand that it's feminist ideology driving this whole thing, then it will start to make sense.

It helps to know the difference between reality and feminist fantasy land.

Reality - men and women are different, have different interests (a good starting point is that women tend to be more interested in people; men tend to be more interested in things), thus having a natural propensity to pursue different types of careers. This explains why the majority of nurses, teachers, and childcare workers are women, while the majority of mechanics, technicians and engineers are men.

Feminist fantasy land - there are more men than women in STEM fields because patriarchy

The irony here is that feminists want women to want something - that women by and large don't want - so that the feminists can get what they want (at the expense of women as a whole).
 

CM86

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Are there quotas for defence? That would be news to me, is there a source for that?
In that scenario, even if unis don't lower the requirements even further, the government will step in and do something to put women at an advantage/men at a disadvantage with regards to gaining entry to university and completing degrees in STEM fields. The government might just make universities put a hold on accepting men's applications into STEM fields, or mandate a 50% female ratio in STEM courses. To anyone who thinks this sounds crazy and would never happen - that's exactly what the australian government already did with regard to direct combat roles in the Australian Defence Force. The results have been absolutely disastrous, of course, but that's never going to stop the feminists in government departments.
 

CM86

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Can someone please explain to a simpleton like me why it's important to increase the number of women in STEM in the first place? That is, what are the benefits in doing so?
There is certainly no practical benefit to society at large. The only people it benefits are the feminists who push this type of legislation to satisfy their own ambitions of redressing structural inequality (the reality of "structural inequality" in this instance is people making different choices for themselves), and perhaps even brings them a step closer to achieving their ideological fantasy of destroying the patriarchy. When you begin to understand that it's feminist ideology driving this whole thing, then it will start to make sense.

It helps to know the difference between reality and feminist fantasy land.

Reality - men and women are different, have different interests (a good starting point is that women tend to be more interested in people; men tend to be more interested in things), thus having a natural propensity to pursue different types of careers. This explains why the majority of nurses, teachers, and childcare workers are women, while the majority of mechanics, technicians and engineers are men.

Feminist fantasy land - there are more men than women in STEM fields because patriarchy

The irony here is that feminists want women to want something - that women by and large don't want - so that the feminists can get what they want (at the expense of women as a whole).
Can you both genuinely not think of a single reason to make STEM more accessible and appealing to women?

That the only possible explanation is that it's a plot by feminists to destroy the patriarchy?



STEM is the future, women are just as capable as men. To progress as a society we need more people in STEM.
What is the downside of making STEM more appealing in general?
There are less women in STEM fields, because many people still hold the opinion that women don't belong in STEM fields. There is a stigma attached to it. Even with such a strong push from certain areas we still have people explaining that women are just different to men, and that men are engineers while women are nurses.
Argue the dangers of pushing too far one way, and discouraging men from these positions. But why do we want to discourage someone from STEM because of their gender?

There is also heavy encouragement and support to get Indigenous Australians into STEM fields. Is anyone against that? (Apart from igon value)
 

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Can you both genuinely not think of a single reason to make STEM more accessible and appealing to women?
What do you mean by accessible and appealing?
That the only possible explanation is that it's a plot by feminists to destroy the patriarchy?
No, the explanation is that as opposed to real factors influencing behaviours of men and women, at root it is a conspiracy by something called “the patriarchy”.
 

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Taylor

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Women aren't prevented from STEM occupations, they are cheered for it and their employment can even be a patronising display of the company's virtue for hiring a womanfolk to wear a hard hat in the man cave.
 

Goosecat

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Can you both genuinely not think of a single reason to make STEM more accessible and appealing to women?

That the only possible explanation is that it's a plot by feminists to destroy the patriarchy?



STEM is the future, women are just as capable as men. To progress as a society we need more people in STEM.
What is the downside of making STEM more appealing in general?
There are less women in STEM fields, because many people still hold the opinion that women don't belong in STEM fields. There is a stigma attached to it. Even with such a strong push from certain areas we still have people explaining that women are just different to men, and that men are engineers while women are nurses.
Argue the dangers of pushing too far one way, and discouraging men from these positions. But why do we want to discourage someone from STEM because of their gender?

There is also heavy encouragement and support to get Indigenous Australians into STEM fields. Is anyone against that? (Apart from igon value)

Gee I wonder what benefit and productivity increases can be found by incorporating females who actually aren't REALLY interested in and if given complete freedom of choice would choose a career away from; STEM fields, over and above males who actually are interested and would choose to devote themselves to such a career.

Australia is as usual a decade behind. Given absolute equality and freedom of choice, most females CHOOSE not to devote themselves to STEM careers.
It is instead in countries lacking equality, where women feel compelled to enter such industries despite not actually desiring to do so.
Any country enforcing forms of "Quotas" regarding female participation in fields previously deemed by imbecilic, short-sighted academics as surely being desired by women, when in actuality they are not, is doomed to suffer further productivity and capability loses in those very fields.
That has nothing to do with ability.
 
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TheWoodenSlug

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Can you both genuinely not think of a single reason to make STEM more accessible and appealing to women?

That the only possible explanation is that it's a plot by feminists to destroy the patriarchy?



STEM is the future, women are just as capable as men. To progress as a society we need more people in STEM.
What is the downside of making STEM more appealing in general?
There are less women in STEM fields, because many people still hold the opinion that women don't belong in STEM fields. There is a stigma attached to it. Even with such a strong push from certain areas we still have people explaining that women are just different to men, and that men are engineers while women are nurses.
Argue the dangers of pushing too far one way, and discouraging men from these positions. But why do we want to discourage someone from STEM because of their gender?

There is also heavy encouragement and support to get Indigenous Australians into STEM fields. Is anyone against that? (Apart from igon value)
So it's just a numbers thing, i.e. we need more people in STEM in general?
 

CM86

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So it's just a numbers thing, i.e. we need more people in STEM in general?
No. It's not just a numbers thing.

You asked what a benefit to more women in STEM could be.

We do need more people in STEM in general. Which is why we need to be careful not to discourage men from STEM fields, while encouraging women.

STEM shouldn't be viewed as unsuited for specific genders, because it isn't unsuited for specific genders. The same way it isn't unsuited for specific races.


Many in our society still view STEM as a domain for men, which would understandably put women off it.
The same way men were/are put off of nursing, because it was/is seen as a domain for women.
 

Fadge

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No. It's not just a numbers thing.

You asked what a benefit to more women in STEM could be.

We do need more people in STEM in general. Which is why we need to be careful not to discourage men from STEM fields, while encouraging women.

STEM shouldn't be viewed as unsuited for specific genders, because it isn't unsuited for specific genders. The same way it isn't unsuited for specific races.


Many in our society still view STEM as a domain for men, which would understandably put women off it.
The same way men were/are put off of nursing, because it was/is seen as a domain for women.
What is your ideal ratio of males and females in STEM careers?
 

the_interloper

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the ideal ratio is the ratio of people who have the ability, intelligence and motivation to enter the field

so exactly what it is currently
I don't think it's as easy as that, we have a shortage in the field and I think most people would rather they are filled with local people if qualified (men or women, who would give a fu**?). Currently these gaps are filled with overseas talent, roads and technology infrastructure demand outstrips current local supply.

That said I'd rather someone from overseas designing this stuff over underqualified locals.

Women aren't prevented from STEM occupations, they are cheered for it and their employment can even be a patronising display of the company's virtue for hiring a womanfolk to wear a hard hat in the man cave.
Correct. I am (well was) an engineer and women were actively encouraged to apply for roles with the consulting firms. It's a huge pat on the back for firms who have women and also indigenous engineers working for them, believe you me they want to have these demographics in their workforce.

Do you have a better source than another Bigfooty poster? I did a quick google but found nothing substantial, would be interested to know the types of roles these quotas are for.

No. It's not just a numbers thing.

You asked what a benefit to more women in STEM could be.

We do need more people in STEM in general. Which is why we need to be careful not to discourage men from STEM fields, while encouraging women.

STEM shouldn't be viewed as unsuited for specific genders, because it isn't unsuited for specific genders. The same way it isn't unsuited for specific races.


Many in our society still view STEM as a domain for men, which would understandably put women off it.
The same way men were/are put off of nursing, because it was/is seen as a domain for women.
I don't know if that is the reason, nursing seems like a bloody tough gig, there's every chance blokes just don't want to do it.
 

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Correct. I am (well was) an engineer and women were actively encouraged to apply for roles with the consulting firms. It's a huge pat on the back for firms who have women and also indigenous engineers working for them, believe you me they want to have these demographics in their workforce.
I do if wonder the population of engineers, male and female, who left the profession to pursue more interesting, less stressful work, is greater than those who are still practicing.
 

james Dean

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Can someone please explain to a simpleton like me why it's important to increase the number of women in STEM in the first place? That is, what are the benefits in doing so?
STEM is one of the biggest causes of the gender pay gap, decrease the discrepancy in M/F participation in STEM, you will reduce the gender pay gap.
 

the_interloper

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I do if wonder the population of engineers, male and female, who left the profession to pursue more interesting, less stressful work, is greater than those who are still practicing.
I've often wondered this myself, there's a lot of people who completed engineering degrees out there that aren't practicing as engineers.

This has a bit to do with the lack of manufacturing over here of course, a lot of former local manufacturers are now importers and basically sales and service offices, and the designers are overseas. This means that they want local sales people who are technical, so they can do the selling, sales support and solution design all in one.
 

owen87

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STEM is one of the biggest causes of the gender pay gap, decrease the discrepancy in M/F participation in STEM, you will reduce the gender pay gap.
Cue future complaints that women learn 'less' than men working in engineering despite not actually doing exactly the same work, or having the same work arrangements.
 

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