Society/Culture Feminism - 2017 Thread - Pt II

[Bradesmaen]

Yeah, "can be". Except the vast majority of the time, they're not.





So if she was a 10 out of 10, then I would jump to her defense like a white knight? Is that how it works?

That's exactly how it seems. Maybe that is not your intention but you'd want to check over your posts and it shows how you come off. I don't defend women who falsely accuse people and in this case it was not even related to her accusations, it was the way she was treated by the owner and that is all I mentioned. Even if it is not true that still doesn't give the owner the right to say those things as doing that is what prevents women from speaking up in the first place. Many rapes go unreported or in some cases the charges are dropped by the accuser for fear of repercussions. Simplifying it as you do just makes life more difficult for those who are rapes.

 

[woota]

That's exactly how it seems. Maybe that is not your intention but you'd want to check over your posts and it shows how you come off. I don't defend women who falsely accuse people and in this case it was not even related to her accusations, it was the way she was treated by the owner and that is all I mentioned. Even if it is not true that still doesn't give the owner the right to say those things as doing that is what prevents women from speaking up in the first place. Many rapes go unreported or in some cases the charges are dropped by the accuser for fear of repercussions. Simplifying it as you do just makes life more difficult for those who are rapes.

Great, you're talking about one individual who acted like a pig towards a female online. I'm talking about systematic nationwide anti-male bias in colleges and universities with regard to how sexual misconduct accusations are handled.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Great, you're talking about one individual who acted like a pig towards a female online. I'm talking about systematic nationwide anti-male bias in colleges and universities with regard to how sexual misconduct accusations are handled.

Based on? A few cases = systematic? What about the university cover ups of sexual assaults?

 

[cartwright]

Great, you're talking about one individual who acted like a pig towards a female online. I'm talking about systematic nationwide anti-male bias in colleges and universities with regard to how sexual misconduct accusations are handled.

the show on netflix, "unbelievable" was made for people like you. if you haven't watched it, you should.

 

[woota]

Based on? A few cases = systematic? What about the university cover ups of sexual assaults?

I'm not talking about a few cases, I'm talking about hundreds of #metoo punishments against male students on US college and university campuses that were thrown out after the damage had already been done. Many of them have involved male students suing to clear their names and get monetary damages because of the campuses denying them due rights. And yes, it's systematic. For example, the way the law is written now (in canada and the US at least, I don't know about aus) is that an intoxicated female cannot give legal consent to sex, while an intoxicated male can give legal consent. So there is sexism built into the law itself.

Here's an excerpt from the book of defence attorney Vanessa Place:

"Demonstrating the anomalous situation in which two people, equally loaded, agree to have sex, and one of the two is legally relieved of the effect of her consent by virtue of her voluntary intoxication, whereas the other is fully responsible for the effect of both parties’ agreement. At the risk of sounding ungrateful, there’s no feminist purpose served by allowing only one side full agency, even as that agency is temporarily impaired. Sauced goose should also be sauce for the gander—shouldn’t it?"

- The Guilt Project: Rape, Morality, and Law


But if I followed darth_timon's lead, I would just keep bringing up mattress girl to make my point, instead of talking about the law and the inherent bias within it.

 

[woota]

the show on netflix, "unbelievable" was made for people like you. if you haven't watched it, you should.

Another useless poster, on par with CM86. You couldn't make a good post to save your life.

 

[darth_timon]

There is zero evidence to support this and you are merely indulging in speculation that suits your own narrative. Of course, because of your female-bias you also conveniently ignore the fact that male victims of rape and sexual assault also don't come forward because they face an even bigger stigma; that males can't be raped by females and nobody will believe them (or care) that they were raped, sexually assaulted/abused by a woman. There's shame in even admitting to themselves they were victims of sexual misconduct at the hands of a woman because it threatens their own masculinity, so it's blocked out.

Wait, you think that false allegations hurting men is more frequent than women not coming forward about assault?

In relation to the UK: https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/statistics-sexual-violence/

I quote:

In January 2013, An Overview of Sexual Offending in England and Wales, the first ever joint official statistics bulletin on sexual violence released by the Ministry of Justice (MoJ), Office for National Statistics (ONS) and Home Office, revealed:

• Approximately 85,000 women and 12,000 men (aged 16 - 59) experience rape, attempted rape or sexual assault by penetration in England and Wales alone every year; that's roughly 11 of the most serious sexual offences (of adults alone) every hour.
• Only around 15% of those who experience sexual violence report to the police
• Approximately 90% of those who are raped know the perpetrator prior to the offence

And your point about male rape victims is not something I overlook - that's however a piece of misdirection on your part, as we were talking about women victims at the time. Do you know why men don't come forward either? Because society conditions us to believe men cannot be victims. It's not masculine. It tells women they won't be believed and/or treated as complicit in their assault, and men that we cannot possibly be victims.

The problem is that rape is not a black and white thing, and a sexual misadventure where alcohol is involved (that was believed to be consensual at the time) can become rape after the fact because someone regrets it the next day. It's interesting that you keep bringing up one individual case as though that discredits everything else and can't admit that the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction now, at least in the western world. Ever since the #metoo thing started in 2017, college and university campuses in the US have operated with an anti-male bias in how they handle rape and sexual assault allegations against male students, that denies accused men due process and gets them expelled and ruins their reputations and lives on mere accusations. The "believe all women" mantra is the prevailing attitude on college and uni campuses on the US.

A women is either raped or she isn't, yet unlike most other crimes, the victim is on trial almost as much as the suspect. 'How much did she drink?' 'What was she wearing?' 'Had she been flirting with the suspect?' You think things have swung too far in favour of women? The one example I've provided is only the tip of the iceberg. Why do you think that whilst men are concerned about false accusations, women are concerned about ensuring their safety?

There's even an advocacy group now, started by women whose sons were falsely accused of sexual misconduct on college campuses.

Families Advocating for Campus Equality - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How many groups do you think exist in relation to women being assaulted? I promise you, women being raped happens more often than men being false accused of it.

 

[woota]

Wait, you think that false allegations hurting men is more frequent than women not coming forward about assault?

In relation to the UK: https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/statistics-sexual-violence/

The report is from 2013, four years before #metoo and #believeallwomen kicked off. Things have changed.

And your point about male rape victims is not something I overlook - that's however a piece of misdirection on your part, as we were talking about women victims at the time. Do you know why men don't come forward either? Because society conditions us to believe men cannot be victims. It's not masculine. It tells women they won't be believed and/or treated as complicit in their assault, and men that we cannot possibly be victims.

And that's at the very heart of the problem; the conversation around victims coming forward and speaking out is completely female-centric, as though it's exclusively a woman's issue. When in reality, male victims face equal or even greater barriers when it comes to disclosing sexual assault and rape, especially if the perpetrator is female. It's a human issue, not a gendered issue as feminists wish to portray it. Sex crimes involving a male victim are even more underreported compared to the same type of crime with a female victim.

A women is either raped or she isn't, yet unlike most other crimes, the victim is on trial almost as much as the suspect. 'How much did she drink?' 'What was she wearing?' 'Had she been flirting with the suspect?'

So what do you think should happen then? That we should #believeallwomen and men should be locked up without a fair and impartial investigation into the matter? When you're talking about a natural activity between two people where consent is what delineates whether a crime was committed or not, investigations need to take place and questions need to be asked. There's no easy solution, and believing all women is not a solution at all; it actually creates more problems than it solves for both men and women.

Further to what I said in post #7,230 about alcohol and consent - There was a case a few years ago where a male and female were caught having sex after a college party, while both clearly intoxicated. My memory of it is sketchy but I think somebody dobbed the guy in; technically he had committed rape on account of the fact that the girl was intoxicated, because an intoxicated female can't give legal consent while a male can. Basically, a man who engages in consensual sex can be turned into a rapist by this law.

You think things have swung too far in favour of women?

In terms of how allegations of sexual misconduct are handled on college and university campuses in the US and canada, yes things have obviously swung too far in favor of women. As I said in previous posts, we are talking about accused males being expelled from higher education establishments without due process. A mere accusation of wrongdoing can derail their entire college education.

Now if we're talking about outside of US and canadian college & university campuses, then I don't know, but I wouldn't put much stock in anything that you, or any other feminist has to say on the matter. But I will say that cases like this certainly don't inspire confidence in the system:

Woman jailed for lying about being raped by ex-partner, faking crime scene

A former prison guard who spent months fearing for his life in jail over a fake rape reveals how his ex-partner's crime nearly drove him to suicide, changed who he was and "shattered" his faith in the legal system.

www.abc.net.au

The one example I've provided is only the tip of the iceberg. Why do you think that whilst men are concerned about false accusations, women are concerned about ensuring their safety?

And I can provide examples like mattress girl or the duke lacrosse case and say that's only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the injustices faced by falsely accused and wrongfully punished men on college campuses.

How many groups do you think exist in relation to women being assaulted? I promise you, women being raped happens more often than men being false accused of it.

Your promises mean nothing.

 

[scoman]

So just turned on the Bathurst coverage to be introduced to the 'Polished Man' movement. The idea is you paint a nail purple to highlight that one child dies every 5 minutes, due to violence. Fair enough. Seems a worthy cause.

However I am reminded that discussions on here have often raised the idea that (depending on the study and parameters) women kill just as man if not more children than men. I check the website to see the justification to focus this campaign on men. I find a section on the home page with a heading 'Why men?' followed front and centre that it is because men are responsible for 83% of sexual violence. Is that the same thing as one child dying every 5 minutes? I may be seen as nitpicking but it feels a little dishonest and selective.

 

[Bradesmaen]

So just turned on the Bathurst coverage to be introduced to the 'Polished Man' movement. The idea is you paint a nail purple to highlight that one child dies every 5 minutes, due to violence. Fair enough. Seems a worthy cause.

However I am reminded that discussions on here have often raised the idea that (depending on the study and parameters) women kill just as man if not more children than men. I check the website to see the justification to focus this campaign on men. I find a section on the home page with a heading 'Why men?' followed front and centre that it is because men are responsible for 83% of sexual violence. Is that the same thing as one child dying every 5 minutes? I may be seen as nitpicking but it feels a little dishonest and selective.

And? So what has this got to do with feminism. Seems like a worthy cause to get behind.

 

[scoman]

The polished man movement has nothing to do with violence by a specific sex though.

Really?

 

[Bradesmaen]

Really?

Took a dig to find it (hence my edit), but yes it does - although it's really just highlighting violence against children. Again what has feminism got to do with this

 

[scoman]

Took a dig to find it (hence my edit), but yes it does - although it's really just highlighting violence against children. Again what has feminism got to do with this

May be the wrong thread but thought it was a rather clumsy use of two seperate statistics to base a campaign on.

 

[Deliverance]

May be the wrong thread but thought it was a rather clumsy use of two seperate statistics to base a campaign on.

Men used to kill more kids than women, but the number is in decline for men I believe. I wonder if recent campaigns such as this have helped that.

 

[Frank Bunn]

I'm not talking about a few cases, I'm talking about hundreds of #metoo punishments against male students on US college and university campuses that were thrown out after the damage had already been done. Many of them have involved male students suing to clear their names and get monetary damages because of the campuses denying them due rights. And yes, it's systematic. For example, the way the law is written now (in canada and the US at least, I don't know about aus) is that an intoxicated female cannot give legal consent to sex, while an intoxicated male can give legal consent. So there is sexism built into the law itself.

Here's a real example from the UK where the charge was not thrown out.

A socially awkward teenage boy approached a girl in his year group and touched her on the arm, then on another occasion on her waist. He was convicted of two charges of sexual assault. He will be sentenced later this month and is facing a maximum sentence of ten years jail.

The encounters with a teenage girl that have left this 'shy' student facing jail

'It was quite a while - three to five seconds. He smirked at me, he didn’t stop he just touched me and walked off and I broke down crying in the street - it was quite traumatic'

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

 

[Andrew Birch]

 

[Fadge]

Nice that she speaks on behalf of ALL women.

I suggest it is more likely 10% of women...

 

[Andrew Birch]

I don't understand why feminists aren't outraged by this

 

[darth_timon]

The report is from 2013, four years before #metoo and #believeallwomen kicked off. Things have changed.

If you'd read the article, you'd have seen that the figures are up to March 2017. I believe it covers the period of April 2016 to March 2017 (if it follows the UK financial year). Regardless, #metoo has not changed the landscape as significantly as you would believe.

This site has data collected over a number of years, highlighting that under-reporting remains an issue for as recently as 2016, and there is no reason to think that this situation has fundamentally improved within the last two years. https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

And that's at the very heart of the problem; the conversation around victims coming forward and speaking out is completely female-centric, as though it's exclusively a woman's issue. When in reality, male victims face equal or even greater barriers when it comes to disclosing sexual assault and rape, especially if the perpetrator is female. It's a human issue, not a gendered issue as feminists wish to portray it. Sex crimes involving a male victim are even more underreported compared to the same type of crime with a female victim.

The vast majority of sexual assault and rape victims are women, the vast majority of offenders are men, and yet you act outraged because the issue is not weighted equally. Also, consider why it is that victims, whether male or female, do not come forward - the same societal aspects that mean women do not get believed, or worse, are told they invited it/deserved it, apply to men also, as you point out, so why not support feminism and the work it does to highlight that victim-shaming/blaming anyone is wrong? Feminism does far more to highlight this than so-called MRAs ever manage. Meanwhile, it would serve you in good stead to remember that women make up the vast majority of the victims, and men are the majority of the perpetrators.

So what do you think should happen then? That we should #believeallwomen and men should be locked up without a fair and impartial investigation into the matter? When you're talking about a natural activity between two people where consent is what delineates whether a crime was committed or not, investigations need to take place and questions need to be asked. There's no easy solution, and believing all women is not a solution at all; it actually creates more problems than it solves for both men and women.

This isn't what the #believeallwomen thing is about. It's about ensuring that women are not automatically dismissed as liars, which tends to be a recurring theme in rape cases. A victim is no more automatically dishonest than a suspect is automatically guilty, but whilst due process assumes the innocence of the suspect until proven otherwise, it assumes the victim is a liar/deserved it/imagined it/exaggerated it. This is the common narrative of rape cases, yet it rarely happens with other forms of crime.

Further to what I said in post #7,230 about alcohol and consent - There was a case a few years ago where a male and female were caught having sex after a college party, while both clearly intoxicated. My memory of it is sketchy but I think somebody dobbed the guy in; technically he had committed rape on account of the fact that the girl was intoxicated, because an intoxicated female can't give legal consent while a male can. Basically, a man who engages in consensual sex can be turned into a rapist by this law.

If the man was lucid enough to engage in sex without having gotten consent for it, what do you think should happen? He was in control of his faculties enough to take advantage of someone else. Is that fair?

In terms of how allegations of sexual misconduct are handled on college and university campuses in the US and canada, yes things have obviously swung too far in favor of women. As I said in previous posts, we are talking about accused males being expelled from higher education establishments without due process. A mere accusation of wrongdoing can derail their entire college education.

Now if we're talking about outside of US and canadian college & university campuses, then I don't know, but I wouldn't put much stock in anything that you, or any other feminist has to say on the matter. But I will say that cases like this certainly don't inspire confidence in the system:

Woman jailed for lying about being raped by ex-partner, faking crime scene

A former prison guard who spent months fearing for his life in jail over a fake rape reveals how his ex-partner's crime nearly drove him to suicide, changed who he was and "shattered" his faith in the legal system.

www.abc.net.au

And yet, in the US and Canada, you can face allegations and not be impacted at all - Donald Trump, Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, have risen to very powerful positions. In the US, less than 1% of rapes lead to a conviction, and the sentencing varies wildly - with perpetrators, convicted of the crime, walking free in an alarming number of cases. You're attempting to suggest there is an equivalence between men's lives being ruined by an allegation, and the weakness of reporting, investigating, and convicting in cases of rape. That there's an equivalence between false allegations of rape, and the harm done to women by being frequently disbelieved, judged for their behaviour/dress code, having their cases not even investigated, and watching their rapist walk free even after a conviction. Give your head a shake.

And I can provide examples like mattress girl or the duke lacrosse case and say that's only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the injustices faced by falsely accused and wrongfully punished men on college campuses.

I'm sure you can. I don't have any doubt that the problem you complain of is minuscule in comparison to the one I am addressing. I am not saying that making false claims shouldn't be considered wrong, but to suggest the two are even remotely similar in size and scope is misleading.

 

[CatFan79]

Interesting, given rumour has it......

 

[Thegibbsgamble]

Under the advice of dv respect and mental health, they told me to get out before she kills you. The police ignored both services. These services apologised to me. Anyway police wouldn't act so I was given a hotel room for two days while they found her somewhere to live, rather than my home.

A social worker cMe with her other half and son and we moved her stuff. The social worker was a go between. For the next week making sure she had everything. The. Moment she said she had everything the social worker broke of vOntact between is. She sacked the social worker and then started stalking an assaulting me. Social worker took me to a victims support officer and the restrain order option started.

She went to the hearing saying I had her bed and other stuff. So magistrate said she could go get that stuff. I was not at the hearing, was not required. Victim never attends first hearing. Cops come next day with court order. They acted real quick when on her side. When she had no support from services. Didn't act when I had the support and needed them.

Anyway social worker horrified at what she done with hearing, we challenged. She didn't turn up, she was summunsed but didn't. She knew we could prove she was lying. Magistrate found in favour of her. Said she can't take my word for it.

Cops came next day for her stuff. Cops with guns.

To mNy people in here with no life experience, there minds wrapped in cotton wool. People on both sides.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Brave little Khyler Edman

The good alpha

A 15-year-old died protecting his little sister during a burglary, authorities say | CNN

A teenage boy died Thursday while trying to protect his home and little 5-year-old sister from an invading burglar, authorities say.

edition.cnn.com

 

[ash_1050]

There's a hell of a lot more rapes and sexual assaults that go unreported compared to men being falsely accused of rape or sexual assault. That should be the topic of conversation in a feminism thread rather than 'but think about the poor men that are being falsely accused'.

That's a pretty straight forward example of inequality right there, the bigger women's issue being overlooked in favour of discussion around a much smaller number of men being affected.

 

[owen87]

the bigger women's issue being overlooked

Um... where outside of a discussion thread specifically about Feminism as a political outlook is this overlooked? Isn't it specifically that there's limited recognition of male rape victims (part of the issue being a definition of rape that specifically includes penetration) and little to no repercussions when an accuser has found to have falsely lodged an accusation that's the discussion point?

There's a lot of rapes and sexual assaults that go unreported, there's also lots of false accusations (in many forms) that receive little to no publication or sanction when found.

Is the only allowable discussion in a Feminism thread about Women's issues, or are people allowed to raise the harm of some of the positions that are pushed? I find generally there's decent discussion between the more extreme posts that appear in here.

 

[woota]

There's a hell of a lot more rapes and sexual assaults that go unreported compared to men being falsely accused of rape or sexual assault. That should be the topic of conversation in a feminism thread rather than 'but think about the poor men that are being falsely accused'.

If you haven't caught on yet, the general nature of this thread is not pro-feminist. Meaning, if you think people should just parrot feminist dogma like you're doing and not think for themselves, this probably isn't the thread for you.

That's a pretty straight forward example of inequality right there, the bigger women's issue being overlooked in favour of discussion around a much smaller number of men being affected.

It's a pretty straightforward example of how limited your apprehension of the issue is. The issue being discussed is sexual assaults and rapes going unreported. Rape and sexual assault of males is both underreported and underresearched compared to rape and sexual assault of females, which is why the actual magnitude of the problem is unknown. According to the link dark_timon posted, 20% of female students and 32% of female non-students (of college age) who have been raped, will report it. It also has a stat on reporting of rape in the military (43% of female rape victims report it, compared to 10% of male rape victims). More broadly speaking, the stats you'll come up with by searching google state that fewer than 1 in 10 male rape victims report it.

In this thread I've been going on about false allegations on US college campuses, while another poster is throwing out stats from the UK. But these things don't have much real-world relevance to us. If you want to know how this could actually effect you one day, maybe you should listen to the talkback radio program, the 94.5 nightshift. A hot topic of late (which male callers have been speaking out about regularly) is the entrenched anti-male bias in our family court system, and fathers being unjustly served with domestic violence restraining orders due to false allegations of violence, sexual abuse/assault, and rape. We've heard from a former police chief inspector who has stated that everyone who works in the system, from the police, to the magistrates know that it's a wraught and men are being falsely accused all the time, but their hands are tied. It is standard practice for men to be served with DVOs during custody disputes because judges grant women DVOs without even asking for evidence. The women and their lawyers do it because they know the advantage it's going to give them when it comes to gaining custody, child support, and assets. But you would rather that we all just collectively deny the reality of false accusations against men, and center the whole conversation around women and rape, as though they're the only victims.

Strangely, I don't hear women calling talkback radio every night to talk about how unfair the family court system is...or judges denying their requests for DVOs. In fact, I've yet to hear one instance of this happening. The fact is, the family court is rife with false allegations against men, and feminists who have recently been given air time to talk on this issue, know they can't deny it outright but they are very, very determined to obfuscate the facts and muddy the waters around it.