Society/Culture Feminism - 2017 Thread - Pt II

[HairyO]

So the QLD detective who said the police are keeping an open mind is getting smashed in the media.

I wonder if we are happy with a world where the police decide guilt before any investigations. Because to me all he was saying is they need to investigate and then will make comments which get passed on to the Coroner and then there is a finding... which is how it always has to be every time someone dies.

I was in a Jury for a Manslaughter case where a DV victim killed their partner in self defence. It was obvious to everyone. But every death has to be investigated. And treated equally. And go through the same processes. To ensure that we all get justice.

There are a huge number of issues with our police and courts, but for the above Id have to say Im happy it works this way.

 

[Ok Boomer]

So the QLD detective who said the police are keeping an open mind is getting smashed in the media.

I wonder if we are happy with a world where the police decide guilt before any investigations. Because to me all he was saying is they need to investigate and then will make comments which get passed on to the Coroner and then there is a finding... which is how it always has to be every time someone dies.

I was in a Jury for a Manslaughter case where a DV victim killed their partner in self defence. It was obvious to everyone. But every death has to be investigated. And treated equally. And go through the same processes. To ensure that we all get justice.

There are a huge number of issues with our police and courts, but for the above Id have to say Im happy it works this way.

Top detective stood aside from car fire investigation over 'victim-blaming' comments

Detective Inspector Mark Thompson stands down after suggesting killer Rowan Baxter may have been "driven too far" before dousing his estranged wife and young children in petrol and setting them alight.

www.abc.net.au

You will be stood down for following due process and suggesting that you will investigating all possible scenarios and motives. What a joke.

Investigating all motives could lead to an outcome which prevents incident(s) in the future.

 

[WA ROO]

I'd be curious to know if his time in sport contributed to him acting out violently, acquired brain injuries can lead to that.

Such a shame.

I doubt the CTE would be a factor in this
Gutless POS had been terrorizing the family for a while before this sickening act

 

[skybeau]

Top detective stood aside from car fire investigation over 'victim-blaming' comments

Detective Inspector Mark Thompson stands down after suggesting killer Rowan Baxter may have been "driven too far" before dousing his estranged wife and young children in petrol and setting them alight.

www.abc.net.au

You will be stood down for following due process and suggesting that you will investigating all possible scenarios and motives. What a joke.

Investigating all motives could lead to an outcome which prevents incident(s) in the future.

What circumstances do you think would justify Rowan's choice of behaviour?

 

[Ok Boomer]

What circumstances do you think would justify Rowan's choice of behaviour?

I'm not saying his actions should be justified or are justifiable so your question is irrelevant.

 

[HairyO]

What circumstances do you think would justify Rowan's choice of behaviour?

Saying that the police dont jump to conclusions and keep an open mind until all the evidence is gathered?

Hopefully all circumstances.

What circumstances are you okay with police making finding without all the evidence? I assume you being on the receiving end is a small price to pay for speedy vigilence ?

 

[Lethality]

I'm assuming it's just poor phrasing, because surely we expect police to look at things from all angles. This looks like a fairly typical open/shut case of long term abuse though.

 

[HairyO]

I'm assuming it's just poor phrasing, because surely we expect police to look at things from all angles. This looks like a fairly typical open/shut case of long term abuse though.

Combined with the perpetually outraged and the points scorers.

Lone driver, straight road, car crashed in to a tree. If the cops came out with 'Yep, suicide' the very same people would be outraged that they didnt investigate first.

 

[CM86]

Combined with the perpetually outraged and the points scorers.

Lone driver, straight road, car crashed in to a tree. If the cops came out with 'Yep, suicide' the very same people would be outraged that they didnt investigate first.

I don't think they're complaining about having a proper investigation.

​

But in comments that have shocked domestic violence campaigners, the force says they are keeping an “open mind” about suggestions the 42-year-old Rowan Baxter had been “driven too far” and are appealing to people who knew the couple to come forward to understand his motives.​

​

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...mind-comment-on-of-hannah-clarke-and-children


Can't believe that's the biggest talking point around this horrific incident.

Straight into partisan divides.

 

[HairyO]

I don't think they're complaining about having a proper investigation.

​

But in comments that have shocked domestic violence campaigners, the force says they are keeping an “open mind” about suggestions the 42-year-old Rowan Baxter had been “driven too far” and are appealing to people who knew the couple to come forward to understand his motives.​

​

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...mind-comment-on-of-hannah-clarke-and-children


Can't believe that's the biggest talking point around this horrific incident.

Straight into partisan divides.

"They" are complaining because they complain about everything. The person who it was decided was best suited to lead the investigation is now off the case because he clearly misspoke.

That is a ridiculous outcome.

 

[CM86]

"They" are complaining because they complain about everything. The person who it was decided was best suited to lead the investigation is now off the case because he clearly misspoke.

That is a ridiculous outcome.

No. You just jump anyone who complains about something you agree with, into one vague group.
"They".

I don't believe that you cannot see the reasoning behind people being frustrated with saying you're open to the interpretation that that devastating murder could have been the fault of the victims.

The woman who 'looked into the eyes of a neighbour as skin melted off her hands', might have been the cause of it.

 

[skybeau]

I'm not saying his actions should be justified or are justifiable so your question is irrelevant.

Can you see how the officers comments could be interpreted as him saying the actions could be justifiable? What is your reading of the phrase "under certain circumstances"?

 

[HairyO]

No. You just jump anyone who complains about something you agree with, into one vague group.
"They".

I don't believe that you cannot see the reasoning behind people being frustrated with saying you're open to the interpretation that that devastating murder could have been the fault of the victims.

The woman who 'looked into the eyes of a neighbour as skin melted off her hands', might have been the cause of it.

So sometimes the police shouldnt do a full investigation before offering opinions?

Do you have a list of the times this is okay?

 

[CM86]

So sometimes the police shouldnt do a full investigation before offering opinions?

Do you have a list of the times this is okay?

Not connected to my post in anyway.
We're discussing how it can come across as victim blaming.
And while there is a serious discussion to be had around the legal system etc (Which I've talked about before).
Making a comment that can be seen as blaming the victims the day they were burned to death. You're lying if you pretend you don't understand how that could make people react. And if you don't see how bad it is as an outlook for the police.

Engage or don't. But I'm not playing your silly games on this issue.

 

[HairyO]

Not connected to my post in anyway.
We're discussing how it can come across as victim blaming.
And while there is a serious discussion to be had around the legal system etc (Which I've talked about before).
Making a comment that can be seen as blaming the victims the day they were burned to death. You're lying if you pretend you don't understand how that could make people react. And if you don't see how bad it is as an outlook for the police.

Engage or don't. But I'm not playing your silly games on this issue.

Lets keep it simple then. Do you think he was victim blaming?

 

[Lethality]

Can you see how the officers comments could be interpreted as him saying the actions could be justifiable? What is your reading of the phrase "under certain circumstances"?

Circumstances are taken into account in criminal law all the time though. I don't understand why this particular crime should be handled any differently. That's not to say there are extenuating circumstances in this case, but why can't that be investigated?

 

[HairyO]

Circumstances are taken into account in criminal law all the time though. I don't understand why this particular time is any different.

Because sometimes people want the police to ascribe guilt before investigating. Like domestic violence and Islamic terrorism.

 

[Nickos66]

As for the initial comment I wasn't implying this should effect custody decisions. I implied would. Do you think incidents like this effect men negatively, generally when it comes to custody?

No, I wouldn't have thought so.

I'd like to think Family Court Judges are intelligent enough to decouple a completely unrelated incident to the case before them at any given point in time.

Sorry but.... Spoken like a person that's never experienced the family courts.

 

[owen87]

No. You just jump anyone who complains about something you agree with, into one vague group.
"They".

I don't believe that you cannot see the reasoning behind people being frustrated with saying you're open to the interpretation that that devastating murder could have been the fault of the victims.

The woman who 'looked into the eyes of a neighbour as skin melted off her hands', might have been the cause of it.

Reads to me like he’s said one sentence in an awkward way that sums up as “we’ll keep an open mind while we explore all possibilities” and then people have drastically blown it up as though he’s actively blaming the mother.

Keep in mind it’s likely the same people would demand their due process and not having the police pre-empt a conclusion prior to a full investigation.

 

[romeohwho]

The policeman involved got it completely wrong when he spoke of ‘circumstances’ and ‘driven’ and his now standing aside is completely correct outcome. Any discussion around this that comes to a different interpretation is simply rubbish.
There are no circumstances that justify the pre-meditated and particularly horrible taking of these four lives.

 

[skybeau]

Circumstances are taken into account in criminal law all the time though. I don't understand why this particular crime should be handled any differently. That's not to say there are extenuating circumstances in this case, but why can't that be investigated?

Firstly, no one has been able to detail what those circumstances may be.

Secondly, of course they'll investigate all options. Even in this case, where it's pretty clear there is a history of violence. But the public messaging around this tragedy has to be on point. And opening the door to "under certain circumstances" promotes the discussion that Hannah in some way is responsible for what happened. And surely you and others in this thread objecting to the officer being stood down don't entertain this right?

 

[Lethality]

Firstly, no one has been able to detail what those circumstances may be.

Secondly, of course they'll investigate all options. Even in this case, where it's pretty clear there is a history of violence. But the public messaging around this tragedy has to be on point. And opening the door to "under certain circumstances" promotes the discussion that Hannah in some way is responsible for what happened. And surely you and others in this thread objecting to the officer being stood down don't entertain this right?

I'm not speaking about this particular case, I just don't understand the attitude being taken that we can't talk about that possibility. I suppose the best explanation is about getting the message on point. That's the only thing that makes sense to me.

 

[skybeau]

I'm not speaking about this particular case, I just don't understand the attitude being taken that we can't talk about that possibility. I suppose the best explanation is about getting the message on point. That's the only thing that makes sense to me.

I don't understand, in other posts you've referred to this particular case. And now you aren't referring to this case. But you'd like to talk about the possibility of "under certain circumstances" in this case.

But yep, it's the messaging. Glad you appreciate that. In this particular case.

 

[Lethality]

I don't understand, in other posts you've referred to this particular case. And now you aren't referring to this case. But you'd like to talk about the possibility of "under certain circumstances" in this case.

But yep, it's the messaging. Glad you appreciate that. In this particular case.

I was probably saying I'm not speaking about this case having extenuating circumstances, as it looks like textbook abuse/murder

 

[Deliverance]

I don't know a great deal about the legal system, but I'd imagine each case would be treated individually.

Sorry but.... Spoken like a person that's never experienced the family courts.

Guilty as charged your honour. If you have knowledge of the system, I think it would be enlightening in this thread in particular. I'd be keen to hear your thoughts.