Society/Culture Feminism - 2017 Thread - Pt II

[Scallop Industry Thug]

The woman in the Ansari case felt violated after a casual hookup which involved a very famous man. Hookups are promoted as empowering for women and sex with a famous man is a fairly common fantasy. It turns out that in spite of the promotion of these two things, casual sex and famous men turn out to be pretty disappointing for many women (so the stories have gone after the publication of the Ansari story).

So?

So then you have rape fantasies. If something as relatively benign and commonly promoted in the culture as the above is dissatisfying, what do you reckon the promotion of rape fantasies might lead to?

Women have a much complicated relation to sex than men do. Bad sex weighs on them emotionally. Actively encouraging fantasies like hookups, famous men, and rape, each of which have a high likelihood of turning sour, is madness.

Simply put, you can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality. This is what it comes down to.

It's clear what you're implying, an it's pretty ****ed up. Rape apologists don't have a say in this debate except as an exhibit of what toxic human beings think like.

 

[King Brown]

So?

If celebrity & hookup fantasies are routinely disappointing, to the point they leave women highly traumatised - what do you reckon rape fantasies might lead to?

Simply put, you can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality. This is what it comes down to.

It's clear what you're implying, an it's pretty ****** up. Rape apologists don't have a say in this debate except as an exhibit of what toxic human beings think like.

Who is this performance for?

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

If celebrity hookup fantasies are routinely disappointing - what do you reckon rape fantasies might lead to?

You don't get it.

It's genuinely astounding you don't know where the line is between consent and rape, reality and fantasy.

What you need to do is shut your mouth and just listen to women on this issue. Don't start making the point that women bring rape on themselves, or they get emotional, or they want rape.

Just shut your mouth and listen.

You might learn something.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Just looked up 2 of the articles on that site about rape fantasies. It's played out very consentually with willing partners. It's roleplay. It's women choosing the parameters of their sex life.

The boundary is clear as *.

 

[RobbieK]

I am one.

Not the trendy university version of an alt-statist claiming to be an anarchist, the real thing.

Ok, so you would be well aware of the diversity of opinion within the anarchist tradition. But you want to define me out of it? Sounds a little "thought police" like...

I'm intrigued to know what makes you a real anarchist and me a fake one. And what an "alt-statist" is.

By implication of the fact that you have challenged my views opposing exactly that very thing.

So you can't, then?

The fact that we have a different idea about what kind of common belief is required for a functioning free society does not mean that I am in favour of state-sanctioned policing of thought.

Any community has a set of values and principles that it maintains in order to maintain cohesion. Even an anarchist community. Exactly what those values and principles are is up to the community to define - I've given my perspective on what they ought to be, you are free to disagree. Ultimately, every community will have to make decisions about how those principles and values are maintained and how to deal with situations that arise where these principles are threatened. The group can decide to have social consequences for acting outside of the communities values.

If I showed up in your community working the way you wanted it, and started agitating my perspective and you feared that doing so threatened the continuation of your community as you wanted it, what would you do?

 

[RobbieK]

Women have a much complicated relation to sex than men do. Bad sex weighs on them emotionally. Actively encouraging fantasies like hookups, famous men, and rape, each of which have a high likelihood of turning sour, is madness.

Citation?

 

[King Brown]

Citation?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...women-regret-men-regret-not-having-evolution/

 

[King Brown]

You need to understand the difference between fantasy and reality.

It's pretty shocking that you don't.

I understand the difference perfectly, and I’ve clearly explained why the difference doesn’t matter.

You seem easily shocked. You spend every day on here being shocked and getting angry.

 

[King Brown]

Citation?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...women-regret-men-regret-not-having-evolution/

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

I understand the difference perfectly, and I’ve clearly explained why the difference doesn’t matter.

You seem easily shocked. You spend every day on here being shocked and getting angry.

Why shocked?

I hear your attitude from your types far too often.

 

[King Brown]

Why shocked?

You spend every day tut-tutting other opinions, like you’re an aspiring moderator. It’s quite pathetic.

You’re exactly the kind of person who forms his opinions in reaction to those he hates. There’s no clarity in the way you think, just resentment and hatred.

I hear your attitude from your types far too often.

Where do you hear them? What types?

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Where do you hear them? What types?

The type of opinions that don't understand rape. I hear them on the news, or in court transcripts.

 

[King Brown]

The type of opinions that don't understand rape. I hear them on the news, or in court transcripts.

What is to understand that’s not being understood?

I’d have thought it was quite clear what is and isn’t rape. Is Ansari a rapist?

 

[Snake_Baker]

Ok, so you would be well aware of the diversity of opinion within the anarchist tradition. But you want to define me out of it? Sounds a little "thought police" like...

I'm not attempting to facilitate the machinery of the state in order to deny you that right, but I do maintain my own right to call you out on bullshit.

I'm intrigued to know what makes you a real anarchist and me a fake one.

Your willingness to support state sanctioned thought and speech controls.

For crissakes, you present as a "leftie, SJW, postmodernist" "anarchist" and claim to have a 10 year education in political science, and here I am having to point out one of the fundamental tenets of anarchist philosophy!!!!!!!

You strongly present to me as a rote learner who has had their head filled with muck.

And what an "alt-statist" is.

My term for a statist masquerading as an anarchist. The universities are filled with these people.

By implication of the fact that you have challenged my views opposing exactly that very thing.

So you can't, then?

Jesus H Christ, what is it with you people?!

Please, have the final word and don't bother me again.

 

[RobbieK]

I'm not attempting to facilitate the machinery of the state in order to deny you that right, but I do maintain my own right to call you out on bullshit.

Your willingness to support state sanctioned thought and speech controls.

For crissakes, you present as a "leftie, SJW, postmodernist" "anarchist" and claim to have a 10 year education in political science, and here I am having to point out one of the fundamental tenets of anarchist philosophy!!!!!!!

You strongly present to me as a rote learner who has had their head filled with muck.

My term for a statist masquerading as an anarchist. The universities are filled with these people.

Jesus H Christ, what is it with you people?!

Please, have the final word and don't bother me again.

So, again, I ask you to point out where I expressed a willingness to support state sanctioned thought and speech controls?

I ask because I'm pretty sure that I haven't done that and I'm confused as to why you think I have.

I understand anarchist philosophy. I know what I have written. It isn't what you are saying I have written. Ease up on the personal insults, work on your comprehension skills.

 

[Snake_Baker]

So, again, I ask you to point out where I expressed a willingness to support state sanctioned thought and speech controls?

I ask because I'm pretty sure that I haven't done that and I'm confused as to why you think I have.

You don't? Good then. This has gone the proverbial 180 degrees.

If you ever run across any statist SJW types masquerading as anarchists then I recommend you utilise some of Dr Petersons tactics to overcome their cheap intellectual stunts:

Ease up on the personal insults, work on your comprehension skills.

Postmodernism 101.

 

[Jello_B]

I understand the difference perfectly, and I’ve clearly explained why the difference doesn’t matter.

You seem easily shocked. You spend every day on here being shocked and getting angry.

I don’t really get your point. You think people can do what they want in the bedroom but you have an issue with this? I’m sorry I don’t get it. Can you please explain your point.

 

[BEaston]

It's strange when someone starts a conversation by calling someone else dense and then needs a simple concept explained to them 27 times before still not understanding it.

 

[BEaston]

Your willingness to support state sanctioned thought and speech controls.

RobbieK never said that once. You and others just automatically assumed.

 

[BEaston]

You don't? Good then. This has gone the proverbial 180 degrees.

Not really, you just never understood their original point.

 

[ShanDog]

RobbieK never said that once. You and others just automatically assumed.

He quoted someone who advocated that and more (if necessary) before clarifying his own position, so it was an easy misunderstanding to occur.

 

[King Brown]

I don’t really get your point. You think people can do what they want in the bedroom but you have an issue with this? I’m sorry I don’t get it. Can you please explain your point.

If risky fantasies are sold by a publication that at the same time publishes fantasy-as-real as going bad (with voices of other women in support), then maybe women need to recalibrate their expectations and desires around sex just as much as men.

Maybe hookup culture leaves people feeling unfulfilled. Maybe celebrities who have their own show on Netflix are just as awkward and bad at sex as some bloke you meet in a bar. Maybe some of the rituals around courtship that existed for hundreds of years served as useful guardrails against these kinds of disappointment, and shouldn't have been trashed in the name of 'liberation'.

 

[King Brown]

Why is left-wing anarchy any less deluded than libertarianism?

 

[RobbieK]

He quoted someone who advocated that and more (if necessary) before clarifying his own position, so it was an easy misunderstanding to occur.

There was no mention of the state in the passage from Popper that I quoted and there was no indication that I was in favour of authoritatian state sanctioned thought policing in anything that I wrote myself, I specifically made comments about how I was interested in actions outside of the state's legal system that a community/society can utilise to protect and maintain openness and tolerance for difference.

Along the way I copped a fair bit of personal abuse, none of which was justified. It was a bizarre conversarion, I'm uninclined to engage with that poster again.

 

[Snake_Baker]

RobbieK never said that once. You and others just automatically assumed.

Not really, you just never understood their original point.

I employed logical extension as it applies to the limited inferences of written communication.

- I support Petersons stand against postmodernism and it's cheap political stunts.
- Unless you are living on Mars you should be aware that Peterson is a combatant against state mechanisms that seek to control language.
- The interview in question basically consists of this topic.
- RK entered the discussion with an opposing view by challenging my reasoning.
- If RK was not referring to the Peterson interview based upon my reply to that exact thing them maybe their communication skills need a brush up.

There's nothing illogical about how the rest played out..

Along the way I copped a fair bit of personal abuse, none of which was justified.

I should have taken my own advice and first established the ground rules that we are mature adults and offending was allowed.

If you ever want to discuss something with me again, feel free to offend.

I promise I won't utilise it as a fallback position if my arguments fall over.