Society/Culture Feminism - 2017 Thread - Pt II

[La Dolce Vita]

If you actually go back and read that lengthy post, you won't actually find anything obviously anti-woman. What's with the misrepresentation?

It's called shaming tactics...often used by femo's when they have zero facts, logic or evidence to support there anti male agenda

 

[cartwright]

Surely the fact that a woman can fall pregnant without the man knowing or wanting a child and still have him legally responsible for financing the child for 18 years is more than enough reason to say man does have the right to be involved in decisions regarding a woman's reproductive destiny? How about this scenario? The fact that a woman can say she wants to abort her baby and the father has no say in the matter, yet if she decides to keep a baby which he does not want-he is still legally bound to financially support the baby for 18 years. There are a number of other scenarios all of which screw the man. I never say that women don't face hardships and difficulties. Unlike you, I ask why there is never any concern for the hardships and injustices facing men?

Please cite the "plenty of advantages" men have over women in our society- especially advantages enshrined in law.

How about the fact, that only a woman can have babies. Until that changes, the best thing to teach young men is to not have unprotected sex with any woman that he does not know well enough, nor know how she will deal with falling pregnant.

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

domus it looks like you have residents cartwright and skilts stumped. Keep up the truth spitting.

 

[fleabitten]

On March 18, 2005, Amina Wadud led the first female-led jum`ah (Friday) prayer. On that day, women took a huge step towards being more like men. But did we come closer to actualizing our God-given liberation?

I don’t think so.

What we so often forget is that God has honored the woman by giving her value in relation to God—not in relation to men. But as some interpretations of secular Western feminism erase God from the scene, there is no standard left—except men. As a result, some Western feminists are forced to find their value in relation to a man. And in so doing, she has accepted a faulty assumption. She has accepted that man is the standard, and thus a woman can never be a full human being until she becomes just like a man.

What she didn’t recognize was that God dignifies both men and women in their distinctiveness – not their sameness. And on March 18, Muslim women made the very same mistake.

For 1400 years there has been a consensus of the scholars that men are to lead mixed gender congregation. But, as a Muslim woman, why does this matter? The one who leads prayer is not spiritually superior in any way. Something is not better just because a man does it. And leading prayer is not better, just because it’s leading. Had it been the role of women or had it been more divine, why wouldn’t the Prophet ﷺ have asked Ayesha or Khadija, or Fatima—the greatest women of all time—to lead? These women were promised heaven—and yet they never led prayer.

But now, for the first time in 1400 years, we look at a man leading prayer and we think, “That’s not fair.” We think so although God has given no special privilege to the one who leads. The imam is no higher in the eyes of God than the one who prays behind.

On the other hand, only a woman can be a mother. And God has given special privilege to a mother. The Prophet ﷺ taught us that heaven lies at the feet of mothers. But no matter what a man does he can never be a mother. So why is that not unfair?

When asked, “Who is most deserving of our kind treatment?” the Prophet ﷺ replied, “Your mother” three times before saying “your father” only once. Is that sexist? No matter what a man does he will never be able to have the status of a mother.
And yet, even when God honors us with something uniquely feminine, we are too busy trying to find our worth in reference to men to value it—or even notice. We, too, have accepted men as the standard; so anything uniquely feminine is, by definition, inferior. Being sensitive is an insult, becoming a mother—a degradation. In the battle between stoic rationality (considered masculine) and selfless compassion (considered feminine), rationality reigns supreme.

As soon as we accept that everything a man has and does is better, all that follows is a knee-jerk reaction: if men have it, we want it too. If men pray in the front rows, we assume this is better, so we want to pray in the front rows too. If men lead prayer, we assume the imam is closer to God, so we want to lead prayer too. Somewhere along the line we’ve accepted the notion that having a position of worldly leadership is some indication of one’s position with God.

A Muslim woman does not need to degrade herself in this way. She has God as a standard. She has God to give her value; she doesn’t need a man.

In fact, in our crusade to follow men, we as women never even stopped to examine the possibility that what we have is better for us. In some cases we even gave up what was higher only to be like men.

Then we were expected to be superhuman—the perfect mother, the perfect wife, the perfect homemaker—and have the perfect career. And while there is absolutely nothing wrong, by definition, with a woman having a career, we soon came to realize the cost of trying to be superhuman.

Given my privilege as a woman, I only degrade myself by trying to be something I’m not – and in all honesty – don’t want to be: a man. As women, we will never reach true liberation until we stop trying to mimic men, and value the beauty in our own God-given distinctiveness.

If given a choice between stoic justice and compassion, I choose compassion. And if given a choice between worldly leadership and heaven at my feet—I choose heaven.

When your example for "stoic rationality" is Muslim men, it's no wonder you'd be a bit confused. If this lady sees motherhood and service to her family as enough of a purpose in life, good for her. Telling other Muslim women that it should be enough for them though....

 

[cartwright]

So, apparently this is a thing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealthing

Considering the impact of unprotected sex for women (and I don't just mean pregnancy - STI etc)... I wonder how the courts would deal with this.

 

[Generalissimo]

Reasonably sure courts (rightly) punish men for sabotaging birth control and financially reward women for doing it.

 

[romeohwho]

Thanks for that. This is a common and very lazy response that any man who tries to speak up for the male gender or raise awareness of the injustices they face will be have to endure.

I actually thought your comment re trump and the women who want to be grabbed ( by theirs pussies you forgot to include) to advance themselves reveals a rather negative attitude towards women.
Not to mention a rather benign attitude towards the male party.

 

[fleabitten]

I actually thought your comment re trump and the women who want to be grabbed ( by theirs pussies you forgot to include) to advance themselves reveals a rather negative attitude towards women.

I thought it revealed a negative attitude towards women that will cozy up to a creep like Trump just because he's rich and powerful. He didn't say all or even most women are like that.

 

[cartwright]

I thought it revealed a negative attitude towards women that will cozy up to a creep like Trump just because he's rich and powerful. He didn't say all or even most women are like that.

actually, he said

I’ve gotta use some Tic Tacs, just in case I start kissing her.
You know I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait.
And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything…
Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything.

 

[romeohwho]

I thought it revealed a negative attitude towards women that will cozy up to a creep like Trump just because he's rich and powerful. He didn't say all or even most women are like that.

Not sure why you seem to be taking the view that Trump's perception of these ' interactions' is accurate. Wonder why, given his repeated behaviour as a bully and a liar, you'd accept this so easily? ( unless of course one was predisposed to think that way about 'some women')

 

[La Dolce Vita]

How about the fact, that only a woman can have babies. Until that changes, the best thing to teach young men is to not have unprotected sex with any woman that he does not know well enough, nor know how she will deal with falling pregnant.

Or alternatively we could just do something completely absurd like treat men fairly and equally.

I'm sure feminists will have no problem giving men equal rights and shared responsibility as an alternative to the current pro woman bias.

Because people like you actually think feminism is about equality.. lol

 

[fleabitten]

Not sure why you seem to be taking the view that Trump's perception of these ' interactions' is accurate. Wonder why, given his repeated behaviour as a bully and a liar, you'd accept this so easily? ( unless of course one was predisposed to think that way about 'some women')

Trump is probably exaggerating the availability of women to impress the buffoon he was talking to, but it's not an unlikely scenario that Trump would encounter many women who would let him get away with anything. That's not to say that he hasn't tried the same disgusting behaviour on women against their will. Would surprise me if he hasn't. He's a pig. But beautiful women still marry him.

Many men are also willing to sell their souls to rub shoulders with the rich and powerful, so it's not only women. I reckon there are millions out there of both genders that would compromise their own morals and dignity for a chance to get even a small taste of the lifestyle of the rich, powerful and famous.

 

[Gough]

actually, he said

I’ve gotta use some Tic Tacs, just in case I start kissing her.
You know I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait.
And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything…
Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything.

Just an orange Rolf Harris really.

 

[romeohwho]

Trump is probably exaggerating the availability of women to impress the buffoon he was talking to, but it's not an unlikely scenario that Trump would encounter many women who would let him get away with anything. That's not to say that he hasn't tried the same disgusting behaviour on women against their will. Would surprise me if he hasn't. He's a pig. But beautiful women still marry him.

Many men are also willing to sell their souls to rub shoulders with the rich and powerful, so it's not only women. I reckon there are millions out there of both genders that would compromise their own morals and dignity for a chance to get even a small taste of the lifestyle of the rich, powerful and famous.

Yep but of course, I just find it a little puzzling that you and domus seem to be portraying the female in this scenario as the 'baddie' whereas it seems quite clear to me that the 'baddie' is Donald. Not even up for discussion.

 

[quotemokc]

So, apparently this is a thing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealthing

Considering the impact of unprotected sex for women (and I don't just mean pregnancy - STI etc)... I wonder how the courts would deal with this.

This is probably just as big a thing as butt chugging. The media hear wind of the occasional instances of this happening and blow it up so that it seems like everyone is doing it where it is actually very very few.

Not to mention that women can also trick men into getting them pregnant so it cuts both ways,

 

[fleabitten]

Yep but of course, I just find it a little puzzling that you and domus seem to be portraying the female in this scenario as the 'baddie' whereas it seems quite clear to me that the 'baddie' is Donald. Not even up for discussion.

Not really. Donald, to me at least, is definitely the baddie. The women (and men) willing to degrade themselves for him aren't necessarily bad. They're just not victims either (I'm not referring to any unwilling participants in his sleaziness here).

 

[cartwright]

Just an orange Rolf Harris really.

LOL

This is probably just as big a thing as butt chugging. The media hear wind of the occasional instances of this happening and blow it up so that it seems like everyone is doing it where it is actually very very few.

Not to mention that women can also trick men into getting them pregnant so it cuts both ways,

possibly. Its not just pregnancy. STI's are a real thing and they can wreak havoc on a woman's fertility.

 

[romeohwho]

Not really. Donald, to me at least, is definitely the baddie. The women (and men) willing to degrade themselves for him aren't necessarily bad. They're just not victims either (I'm not referring to any unwilling participants in his sleaziness here).

Yep good we are agreed then-the focus should be on Donnie's behaviour in this case.

 

[Werewolf]

 

[darth_timon]

You seem to be a very nice person with a genuine interest in the issues we are discussing. I think you are very misguided to think that feminists have any interest whatsoever in doing anything which will help men to overcome the disadvantages and injustices they face. If what you say about feminists is true why haven't they made a lot of noise about the enormous gender gap in deaths in the workplace? I could say the same about suicide, homelessness and the ever widening gap between female and male graduates at our universities. Feminists (the name is a bit of a give away) have absolutely no interest in anything other than female entitlement. eg. They repeatedly claim they are the equals of men in every way and should be treated accordingly- fair enough.
They enter politics and the moment they get ridiculed or criticized in parliament or the media they scream "sexism!" or fall in an indignant heap. They do not want equality-they want what they perceive to be the good stuff men have without having to take the bad that often goes with it.

Why do male politicians have to simply cop the most vile abuse and scrutiny without being able to say " it's only because I'm a man that you are saying all these horrible things about me!" It is truly ridiculous. I could give many more examples of this sense of entitlement but I fear we will not be changing each other's viewpoint.

Thanks for engaging in such a courteous manner-this is not very common when this issue is discussed.

I think Domus, there's a lot where we don't agree and probably never will. I have read a lot of feminist material (ranging across a lot of issues), and one consistent narrative is that there are plenty of feminists who regard issues affecting men with a great deal of importance. Whereas so-called Men's Rights Activists spend the vast majority of their time criticising feminism (and women in general), there's actually plenty of evidence that feminists actually support greater awareness of men's issues too. Feminism doesn't hold to the old-fashioned idea that men are animals who cannot resist the merest hint of female flesh (this is where a lot of the puritan notions about how women should dress come from, not to mention victim-blaming), feminism holds to the idea that men are smart enough and capable enough to be held accountable for their actions.

This is the same for issues such as male suicide and the improved performance of girls at school vs boys. MRAs moan about feminism not doing anything about these issues, but MRAs don't do anything whilst feminists actually seek to talk about the underlying causes behind these problems.

Thank you for this conversation.

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

 

[domus]

Trump does it because he can get away with it, in spite of what the woman wants, not because of it. Women do not generally want to be grabbed at, regardless of the status of the man doing the grabbing.

But they are happy to grope and grab male celebrities. The difference is that when they do it is seen as funny. Yet more double standards. Think of rock stars being scratched and groped-having their clothes pulled off and hair grabbed. This happened on a regular basis in the 60's and 70's. If male fans had done that to a female celebrity they would be in prison. The male celebrities simply have to accept it as a part of the deal of being famous. Many were scared and had to enter building through back doors or have get away cars to escape the hysterical girls.

I also believe there are some women who love trading a bit of a grope for the money they know will be spent on them and the fame they will achieve if seen on the arm of someone who is rich and powerful.

 

[Lebbo73]

Just an orange Rolf Harris really.

Since you call Trump orange, I imagine you and cartwright didn't mind when people called Obama a monkey? Or just as bad........ never mind.

 

[Maggie5]

Since you call Trump orange, I imagine you and cartwright didn't mind when people called Obama a monkey? Or just as bad........ never mind.

No comparison as one is pretty accurate of hair colouring depending on the day and light.

You are just getting worse and just wanted to use the word 'monkey'. Shame on you!

 

[fleabitten]

No comparison as one is pretty accurate of head colouring depending on the day and light.

You are just getting worse and just wanted to use the word 'monkey'. Shame on you!

FTFY

 

[cartwright]

Since you call Trump orange, I imagine you and cartwright didn't mind when people called Obama a monkey? Or just as bad........ never mind.

It's utterly unsurprising you cannot see the difference.