Society/Culture Feminism part 1 - continued in part 2

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fleabitten

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My internet is down and im using my phone, so there is a delay. You are now pretending that you will have a real conversation. Nowhere did i suggest that rape victims were ever to blame for being raped. Anyone who does hold that opinion is scum in my opinion. That has nothing to do with the OP.
 

Floor Pie

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My internet is down and im using my phone, so there is a delay. You are now pretending that you will have a real conversation. Nowhere did i suggest that rape victims were ever to blame for being raped. Anyone who does hold that opinion is scum in my opinion. That has nothing to do with the OP.
You made a thread on nothing that has been mentioned by anyone on bigfooty, but insist I am suggesting you think rape victims are to be blamed for being raped?

I asked you about your opinion on an actual issue...
What are your thoughts?
Why is blaming the victims of rape still existent in our society? What can we do, to better educate the public?

How do we decrease rape in general?

Is it just education? What role does socio-economics play?
 

fleabitten

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I insisted nothing of the sort. You are just going off topic. This conversation is too difficult to conduct using my phone. I can respond tomorrow to your off topic questions if i havent been banned by then.
 

Floor Pie

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I insisted nothing of the sort. You are just going off topic. This conversation is too difficult to conduct using my phone. I can respond tomorrow to your off topic questions if i havent been banned by then.
I'm such a nice guy, I'll help you!

What phone do you have? I'll show you how to use it to connect your computer to the internet! ;)
 

Tas

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There can be only one...
You made a thread on nothing that has been mentioned by anyone on bigfooty, but insist I am suggesting you think rape victims are to be blamed for being raped?

I asked you about your opinion on an actual issue...
What are your thoughts?
Why is blaming the victims of rape still existent in our society? What can we do, to better educate the public?

How do we decrease rape in general?

Is it just education? What role does socio-economics play?
You could just add some natural herbal testosterone blocker into the water supply. :p

Not in massive concentration but testosterone is primarily responsible for producing hormones and steroids, people with low levels kind of dull the desire.

Without some biological agent, guys that are not very smart (a lot of them) tend to be bombarded with hormones and steroids which makes it a lot harder for them to control urges and impulses, they become a lot more aggressive.

Any guy that primarily thinks with his dick is not going to be someone that is going to be conditioned by education. Same way life imprisonment and death sentences doesn't stop people doing stupid shit.
 

Floor Pie

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You could just add some natural herbal testosterone blocker into the water supply. :p

Not in massive concentration but testosterone is primarily responsible for producing hormones and steroids, people with low levels kind of dull the desire.

Without some biological agent, guys that are not very smart (a lot of them) tend to be bombarded with hormones and steroids which makes it a lot harder for them to control urges and impulses, they become a lot more aggressive.

Any guy that primarily thinks with his dick is not going to be someone that is going to be conditioned by education. Same way life imprisonment and death sentences doesn't stop people doing stupid shit.
What?

High levels of testosterone lead to rape?
 

Floor Pie

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I insisted nothing of the sort. You are just going off topic

This conversation is too difficult to conduct using my phone. I can respond tomorrow to your off topic questions if i havent been banned by then.
I'm such a nice guy, I'll help you!

What phone do you have? I'll show you how to use it to connect your computer to the internet! ;)
Phone battery went flat?
 

Richard Pryor

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At the risk of getting myself banned again...
10 hours of walking and 2 minutes of footage (unless you count ALL of the alleged footage of white people harassing her that was edited out*) doesn't exactly convince me that this is a colossal problem, and even then it includes a lot of inane padding (like that guy saying "God bless" and lots of simple greetings), even the guy who followed her down the street seemed to be taking the piss out of her looking unreasonably pi**ed off than trying to sexually harass her, even ignoring that apparently they were told it was a comedy skit. You could probably get far more footage of people trying to assault you walking around in Redfern for 10 hours, but what would be the point of that?

And of course, the main problem about this video that shows that it is a farce is the e-begging. Why exactly does these person need money to 'solve' this problem? Where is their financial plan for being cost effective? Are they actually going to try and do anything about this, or just spend the money to "raise awareness" by hawking merchandise and get arrested in San Diego like the last time.

In any case, these videos do nothing to advance their causes in my opinion, as anyone who denies that guys trying to take advantage of drunk women might be a problem is not going to be convinced by an online video. These videos only real purpose could be to 'raise awareness', yet the vast majority of people talking about them were already aware of the issues.

When these videos aren't trying to scam donations, they exist to preach to the choir and give people an outlet to feel pride in the fact they recognise a blatantly obvious topic.

Good intentions shouldn't absolve crappy means.

*http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/10/29/catcalling_video_hollaback_s_look_at_street_harassment_in_nyc_edited_out.html
 
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little graham

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Because we all know, none of us have a problem with feminism, it's just that they distract us from the real issues!!!
You are right, the louder someone shouts ideological bullshit, the more they got to hide. You're a smart boy, why don't you look at the publications that seem to provide these feminists with a platform. Whats the bet their heavily into consumerism?
 

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fleabitten

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Okay I finally managed to fix my internet. It would have been fixed sooner but my wife is away visiting her family. She's much better with that kind of thing.
 

fleabitten

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While we still live in the age of white male guilt it is going to be an awkward transition period until things start to turn shitful and men become the disadvantaged. Once that happens then the movement will be dead for good.
I agree with most of your post, but not this part. I honestly can't see men's disadvantages becoming significantly greater than women's disadvantages in the future (or women's advantages becoming greater than men's advantages). As long as feminism is seen as largely misandrist in its objectives, there will be a backlash from men. Which is kinda the point I'm getting at with regard to what's wrong with modern feminism. We're at a point where each gender has their own set of bonuses and burdens and it will probably remain at a stalemate until we stop dividing up according to gender.

You mentioned gamergate...I can't even make sense of that whole thing. But yeah, it seems like another example of feminists taking what could be a reasonable point and then coating it in so much bullshit that it alienates the people that they need on side if there is going to be any real change. Anita Sarkeesian is a fraud. Some of the reactions from male gamers have been disgusting as well, so it makes it pretty hard for a sensible person to pick a side without a ton of qualifiers.

The comet guy's shirt was in pretty bad taste, but again, over the top reactions from feminists make them look ridiculous. If a young woman was excited about them landing a space probe on a comet and started dreaming of being an astronomer, only to change her mind when she saw that dude's shirt, then she was not motivated enough in the first place and didn't deserve to ever become a scientist.
 

Tas

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What?

High levels of testosterone lead to rape?
Well, there is mixed scientific research, one study in Zurich says testosterone doesn't but that study covered 120 test subjects so the sample data was extremely small and their testing seems a bit dubious as they used trading to determine aggressiveness.

I think education will also help, however, I still think hormones and testosterone levels play a significant role when it comes to sex and the aggressiveness men show against women, especially if they say no or back off.

The reason women fall for arseholes is because men are very good at suppressing their true character for a while, probably is a subconscious thing rather than a conscious thing. I don't know if you can emulate the mating ritual conditions in a scientific experiment without studying people's behaviour long-term.
 
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fleabitten

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You made a thread on nothing that has been mentioned by anyone on bigfooty, but insist I am suggesting you think rape victims are to be blamed for being raped?

I asked you about your opinion on an actual issue...
What are your thoughts?
Why is blaming the victims of rape still existent in our society? What can we do, to better educate the public?

How do we decrease rape in general?

Is it just education? What role does socio-economics play?
This is off topic but I'll try to answer anyway.

My thoughts are that rape is always wrong. Of course it is. If a man has been proven to have committed a rape, then he deserves whatever punishment can be meted out to him, including vigilante justice. The problem can be proving that there was a rape and again this is where feminist dishonesty can muddy the issue. There are people who are trying to include drunken sex in the definition of rape. Not drunk women being molested when they are incapacitated, but consensual sex between two drunk people. Now that might have no chance of ever becoming actual law, but the feminist loons who think these things up actually make people question whether rape is as common as we're led to believe.

Victims of rape should never be blamed for being raped. There is absolutely no excuse for forcing yourself on another human being. However, people who claim to have been raped should not always be believed without question. Some women do accuse men falsely. We could argue about how common that is and I hope its at the lower end of the estimated range just for the sake of my own faith in humanity, but it does happen and it ruins peoples lives just as much as being the victim of a rape does.

As for how to decrease the incidences of rape, that's a difficult question. I think there should be less stigma around sexuality in general. Religion has us all twisted on sex and it's going to take a couple of generations at least to undo that damage. And that process can't even really get going until we've kicked religion. Of course rape is about more than just sex, it's about power, so removing all of societies weirdness about sex isn't going to put a stop to rape. There will always be people who want to dominate other people, so I guess we just try to identify those people and remove them from the general population. This could spin off into a new conversation about crime and punishment, prison reform, etc.
 

fleabitten

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10 hours of walking and 2 minutes of footage (unless you count ALL of the alleged footage of white people harassing her that was edited out*) doesn't exactly convince me that this is a colossal problem, and even then it includes a lot of inane padding (like that guy saying "God bless" and lots of simple greetings), even the guy who followed her down the street seemed to be taking the piss out of her looking unreasonably pi**ed off than trying to sexually harass her, even ignoring that apparently they were told it was a comedy skit. You could probably get far more footage of people trying to assault you walking around in Redfern for 10 hours, but what would be the point of that?
That was the other video with the drunk girl. This one was real footage. But as you said, out of 10 hours they got just a few seconds of actual harassment. It's a few seconds too many, but by making out as if she was constantly under attack, they have people calling BS on the whole thing.

And of course, the main problem about this video that shows that it is a farce is the e-begging. Why exactly does these person need money to 'solve' this problem? Where is their financial plan for being cost effective? Are they actually going to try and do anything about this, or just spend the money to "raise awareness" by hawking merchandise and get arrested in San Diego like the last time.
Yep. Same thing with Sarkeesian and the gamergate thing. She raised a bunch of money so that she could go around giving talks about the problem. Snake oil salespeople.

Good intentions shouldn't absolve crappy means.
This is the crux of my argument.
 

The Coup

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See the only time I read about feminism is when I'm reading an actual academic talking about gender issues, or I'm reading about people being mad at the alleged "feminism" appearing in mainstream media articles.

I don't get the point of people like Sarkeesian. We already have feminist academics who are way more informed and way more intelligent than Sarkeesian is, but they don't get any exposure. Its similar to how whenever someone religious is being interviewed on mainstream TV its some complete nutcase "preacher" like Danny Nalia instead of say, an official spokesman of the church or an Anglican minister.

Give proper exposure to academics and experts in the field. Its why TED talks are so popular, people are cottoning on that things like feminism, or religion, or economics are not covered accurately or fairly by profit driven media companies.

So ignore it.
 

Tas

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I agree with most of your post, but not this part. I honestly can't see men's disadvantages becoming significantly greater than women's disadvantages in the future (or women's advantages becoming greater than men's advantages). As long as feminism is seen as largely misandrist in its objectives, there will be a backlash from men. Which is kinda the point I'm getting at with regard to what's wrong with modern feminism. We're at a point where each gender has their own set of bonuses and burdens and it will probably remain at a stalemate until we stop dividing up according to gender.
I think we are already seeing backlash, however, the opposition is not organised, it is not motivated and it is not political. Take the #gamergate twitter example I mentioned, they had a lot of support via the #notyourshield which was a lot of women and even some feminists who sides with the gamers simply because they felt they were being victimised, treated unfairly and persecuted by the media who are painting a one-sided narrative against them. There are a number of outspoken women, especially psychologists who have been pushed out of the system of determining social policy by activists who do not have the education or experience.

I think it would take a fair bit for them to lose their political power

You mentioned gamergate...I can't even make sense of that whole thing.
It was largely about the gaming media, it had become corrupt and was rife with cronyism and had got worse and worse over the last decade, a lot of journalists were driven out of the system and a lot of bloggers and freelances who lacked professional ethics replaced them and it was rife with people being paid off and accepting kickbacks for blatant promoting or had relationships or friendships which produce biased articles.

The gaming industry is now up to $100b, larger than music and movie industries combined, so there are big players like Microsoft, Sony and others, a lot of money is at stake and there was no real code of ethics so they pretty much pushed it as much as humanly possible and destroyed anyone ethical who spoke out.

Another factor is that feminist movement have been targeting the game and tech industries as a battleground they have lost territory in since the second wave, even though 60% of the population play video games and it is roughly a 50/50 split in terms of gender, the core-gamers which accounts for approximately 80% of the revenue is 95% male (according to one CEO) so a lot of the products being produced cater for males and isn't what you would call the most politically correct content. However, it is a lot tamer than the movie or TV industries.

The shitstorm started when an independant female developer, Zoe Quinn, had an ex-boyfriend write an article or something that she cheated on him and exchanged sex for positive reviews, she had only written a small text based game on depression (from what I am lead to believe) and she got a bit of coverage, most indies get zero coverage. So the shit hit the twitter fan with gamers being fed up with the gaming media and demanding a code of ethics put in place, a lot of Zoe's supporters rushed to her defence (especially in the media) and twitter being the anonymous shit hole that it is, some of them threatened and harassed her and those who defended her. The ex-boyfriend later came out and said he made it up.

The major gaming media sites then colluded to release 'gamers are dead' articles, which was basically an attack on their major demographic of users, and they started to champion a feminist activist called Anita Sarkessian who was putting out a kickstarter web series of videos that basically said the gaming industry was sexist and misogynistic and they were getting a lot of left wing support and the message was they wanted to force a change of the content developers were producing. That went down like a lead balloon with the gamers and there has been heating abuse back and forth between the nerds and feminist groups ever since.

There has been a very strong narrative about how certain female who had spoken up had death threats, but those who supported gamergate had also received death threats, been harassed, etc. but the narrative was that it was just misogynist gamers threatening women in gaming who were against gamergate. Reality was that there were anonymous trolls threatening both sides, however, the gamers wanted to address ethics in journalism, creative freedom for developers in the gaming industry, etc but haven't even being given a platform to even talk about the issues that are important to them at least.

Two things were surprising about this whole drama, the ability of feminists and the left wing to control the vast majority of the media and the message to the general public is surprising and I think it surprised a lot of right wing groups in general as well. I have serious doubt they will win unless the media gives a more balanced approach to the topic, I don't see that happening any time soon.

But yeah, it seems like another example of feminists taking what could be a reasonable point and then coating it in so much bullshit that it alienates the people that they need on side if there is going to be any real change. Anita Sarkeesian is a fraud. Some of the reactions from male gamers have been disgusting as well, so it makes it pretty hard for a sensible person to pick a side without a ton of qualifiers.
It hasn't been well handled by either side really, it really isn't the gamer's fault for the content that is being made, they purchase the kind of games they like to play and over the years the game developers have stuck with simple narratives that have worked over the decades of gaming, but ultimately the developers are the ones responsible for what is produced, however, the consumers are copping the brunt of the abuse for it.

My sister works in the gaming industry so I understand the kind of barriers she has to deal with in the industry, women represent about 22% of the gaming industry and most of the women are not in the technical or development side, more the PR, marketing, etc.

People getting attacked on both sides is really disgusting, there is no excuse to threaten or harass anyone for an opinion or a belief, but in the media the message is only one side is being attacked, they are not doing a very good job of painting an accurate picture for the general public, the vast majority of articles and news reports have been hit pieces which seek to dehumanise one side.

Companies aren't politically motivated, they will make whatever there is demand for and a lot of the games are made in Japan which isn't the most progressive of nations when it comes to women. Gamers are concerned the type of games they want to play will be pushed out in favour of 'feminist approved games'. However, I think that is paranoid. There is scope imo for there to be stronger women characters with better roles and a more gender neutral objectives, it would broaden the products to be more appealing to a wider audience. However, if more women don't buy/play them then the developers just see a lot more cost for no gain.

The comet guy's shirt was in pretty bad taste, but again, over the top reactions from feminists make them look ridiculous. If a young woman was excited about them landing a space probe on a comet and started dreaming of being an astronomer, only to change her mind when she saw that dude's shirt, then she was not motivated enough in the first place and didn't deserve to ever become a scientist.
The problem with comet guy is that you would think someone in the ESA would have got him to change his shirt before going on TV, didn't matter if he was wearing that shirt or any other overly casual shirt, it isn't a good image for the organisation. Europe might be a lot less uptight than other places around the world but it wasn't a good look irrespective what images were on it.

I think the western media made too much of a song and dance about it, this guy lead a team that landed a glorified microwave on an asteroid that took 12 years to get there, it was his 15 seconds of fame and they turned him into a sexist instead, that is pretty brutal.
 

fleabitten

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See the only time I read about feminism is when I'm reading an actual academic talking about gender issues, or I'm reading about people being mad at the alleged "feminism" appearing in mainstream media articles.

I don't get the point of people like Sarkeesian. We already have feminist academics who are way more informed and way more intelligent than Sarkeesian is, but they don't get any exposure. Its similar to how whenever someone religious is being interviewed on mainstream TV its some complete nutcase "preacher" like Danny Nalia instead of say, an official spokesman of the church or an Anglican minister.

Give proper exposure to academics and experts in the field. Its why TED talks are so popular, people are cottoning on that things like feminism, or religion, or economics are not covered accurately or fairly by profit driven media companies.

So ignore it.
That's all well and good for people who take an active interest in the issues. For people who are just scrolling down their facebook page and seeing all these videos and articles, they're either going to think "men are dangerous, women are oppressed" or "feminists are liars". And the nutty stuff is creeping into the mainstream more and more. You don't have to be subscribed to anything radical to be running into it multiple times on a daily basis. The feminist myths from the article in the OP are repeated everywhere, all the time. And anyone that points out that there are some factual errors is shouted down or mocked.

It's not just MRA-types who are anti-feminism now, it's a lot of women, including women who would identify as feminists if they weren't repulsed by certain aspects of it. It's men who would otherwise be allies but don't see how they fit into modern feminism unless they are coming with their hat in their hands, apologizing for things they never did.
 

Tas

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There can be only one...
See the only time I read about feminism is when I'm reading an actual academic talking about gender issues, or I'm reading about people being mad at the alleged "feminism" appearing in mainstream media articles.

I don't get the point of people like Sarkeesian. We already have feminist academics who are way more informed and way more intelligent than Sarkeesian is, but they don't get any exposure. Its similar to how whenever someone religious is being interviewed on mainstream TV its some complete nutcase "preacher" like Danny Nalia instead of say, an official spokesman of the church or an Anglican minister.

Give proper exposure to academics and experts in the field. Its why TED talks are so popular, people are cottoning on that things like feminism, or religion, or economics are not covered accurately or fairly by profit driven media companies.

So ignore it.
The problem is people like Sarkeesian are the type that get feminist support, which means the media and political support, nobody cares what the professional psychologist thinks, they have no voice.

i didn't have any major problem with Sarkeesian's observations, it was her conclusions of her observations in some of her videos which I had a problem with because they weren't supported by any peer reviewed evidence.

In one of them she said "the trope quickly became the go-to motivational hook for developers as it provided an easy way to tap into adolescent male power fantasies in order to sell more games to young straight boys and men.”

There is just no evidence to support this conclusion, a lot of the narratives followed simple narratives similar to legends, myths, fairytales, etc. In games where you have a joystick, a fire button and a jump button, you don't really have complex interaction or stories.

Unless she is claiming Walt Disney to be a misogynist who is brainwashing kids with his trope characters then I am not sure you can isolate video games.

In another one she claimed the sexist and misogynistic nature of games contributes to violence against women or words to that effect which she really needs to come out evidence to support that claim, because there have been activists that have claimed from observation that violence in games leads to violence in real life and that has been disproven.

I am all for what she says about creating better characters, story and goals which would appeal more to women, but she wears you down with an hour long video with numerous observations and then implants the conclusion in your mind that yes, this is misogynistic because it leads young men to hate women.

That is what has sucked in a lot of left wing people, 99% of what she says is fine and reasonable but that last 1% is inflammatory and based on no supported evidence.

However, the psychologists and scientist studies don't mean shit, they aren't the ones being interviewed or have their message broadcast as the truth.
 

fleabitten

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Two things were surprising about this whole drama, the ability of feminists and the left wing to control the vast majority of the media and the message to the general public is surprising and I think it surprised a lot of right wing groups in general as well. I have serious doubt they will win unless the media gives a more balanced approach to the topic, I don't see that happening any time soon.
Yeah i was only vaguely aware of what it was all about, but most of the info I was getting was saying that it was about the portrayal of women in video games and then a bunch of woman-haters sending death threats to the brave feminists who dared speak out. Get past the usual hysteria and it was obviously about a lot more than that, but as you said, there was almost blanket coverage in the media of the radical feminist perspective. And there were enough douchebags who fit the description for them to be able to paint all male gamers with the same brush.

People getting attacked on both sides is really disgusting, there is no excuse to threaten or harass anyone for an opinion or a belief, but in the media the message is only one side is being attacked, they are not doing a very good job of painting an accurate picture for the general public, the vast majority of articles and news reports have been hit pieces which seek to dehumanise one side.

Companies aren't politically motivated, they will make whatever there is demand for and a lot of the games are made in Japan which isn't the most progressive of nations when it comes to women. Gamers are concerned the type of games they want to play will be pushed out in favour of 'feminist approved games'. However, I think that is paranoid. There is scope imo for there to be stronger women characters with better roles and a more gender neutral objectives, it would broaden the products to be more appealing to a wider audience. However, if more women don't buy/play them then the developers just see a lot more cost for no gain.
Exactly. My wife and daughters are all gamers (much more so than I) and they don't have any problems with the gaming community in general. And they're not hung up on whether their favourite game has male or female protagonists. They just like playing games. I've actually been very careful with my daughters because I know that people online can be assholes and I didn't want them being bullied, especially for being female. They've had people express surprise that they are girls and doubt that they really are, but nothing negative about their gender. Just people arguing and being jerks like they would with anyone else.

The problem with comet guy is that you would think someone in the ESA would have got him to change his shirt before going on TV, didn't matter if he was wearing that shirt or any other overly casual shirt, it isn't a good image for the organisation. Europe might be a lot less uptight than other places around the world but it wasn't a good look irrespective what images were on it.

I think the western media made too much of a song and dance about it, this guy lead a team that landed a glorified microwave on an asteroid that took 12 years to get there, it was his 15 seconds of fame and they turned him into a sexist instead, that is pretty brutal.
Yep. That sums it up perfectly.
 

The Coup

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That's all well and good for people who take an active interest in the issues. For people who are just scrolling down their facebook page and seeing all these videos and articles, they're either going to think "men are dangerous, women are oppressed" or "feminists are liars". And the nutty stuff is creeping into the mainstream more and more. You don't have to be subscribed to anything radical to be running into it multiple times on a daily basis. The feminist myths from the article in the OP are repeated everywhere, all the time. And anyone that points out that there are some factual errors is shouted down or mocked.

It's not just MRA-types who are anti-feminism now, it's a lot of women, including women who would identify as feminists if they weren't repulsed by certain aspects of it. It's men who would otherwise be allies but don't see how they fit into modern feminism unless they are coming with their hat in their hands, apologizing for things they never did.
You have to be really careful about what you read (and even more careful about what you believe as genuine) in your facebook feed.

Why just the other day I thought that Putin cockmobile motorcade was genuine.
 

The Coup

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The problem is people like Sarkeesian are the type that get feminist support, which means the media and political support, nobody cares what the professional psychologist thinks, they have no voice.
Well I'm a feminist and I think she's a hack with a couple of good points turned into sweeping generalisations.

i didn't have any major problem with Sarkeesian's observations, it was her conclusions of her observations in some of her videos which I had a problem with because they weren't supported by any peer reviewed evidence.
I agree. Leave academic discussion to academics and research universities and scientists - if you want to get involved in those studies, go to university and actually learn about how they work and get involved with other experts in that field.

Some random with a beef can certainly make sense or advocate, but their process of evidence gathering and conclusions gained from it are probably going to be a mess.
 

fleabitten

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Tell me more men, How does it feel being a female?
Not sure. I talk to the females close to me a lot about their experiences, so while I can never really know what it's like to be female, I am pretty well-informed about what it's like to be those particular females.

And the post in the OP was by a woman. I can provide links to numerous other women talking about the problems with feminism if you're only willing to listen to women's opinions.
 
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