Society/Culture Feminism - Pt III

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Gralin

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I don't have the background knowledge to question much of that, so I'll take your points on face value. If feminism is defined as the fight for female rights and equality, it's objectively wrong to exclude women based on wealth or race. Few will argue against that.

While I agree that trans rights are human rights, I don't see why feminists shoulder any responsibility to advocate on behalf of trans women. It's up to feminists to define what they're advocating for, and whether they fight purely on behalf of their sex and ignore gender altogether.

A lot of the pushback seems to come from males, which to me speaks of the same angle anti-abortionists use. Why should males get an equal say on female rights like reproduction (abortion), sports, bathroom usage, etc? Let them decide their own fate.
As I said feminism evolves. It's not a single movement.
It's like any other social or political movement.

Being a woman doesn't automatically make you a feminist and you don't have to be a woman to be a feminist.

Like I said though trans rights are human rights. Trans people are people, they deserve the same rights and access as anyone else to sport and safe spaces, school, employment, everything.

What we've got at the moment is their rights being attacked on many fronts.

If you are a feminist you should be for equality, equality only exists if everyone has it. That includes trans people.

Fourth wave feminism is about that.

That doesn't mean that second and third wave feminists can't also be on board with this either, just that it wasn't part of the main push then.

You best believe that trans activists have been there marching for civil rights, gay rights, women's rights, Stonewall happened in 1969
 

Evolved1

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As I said feminism evolves. It's not a single movement.
It's like any other social or political movement.

Being a woman doesn't automatically make you a feminist and you don't have to be a woman to be a feminist.

Like I said though trans rights are human rights. Trans people are people, they deserve the same rights and access as anyone else to sport and safe spaces, school, employment, everything.

What we've got at the moment is their rights being attacked on many fronts.

If you are a feminist you should be for equality, equality only exists if everyone has it. That includes trans people.

Fourth wave feminism is about that.

That doesn't mean that second and third wave feminists can't also be on board with this either, just that it wasn't part of the main push then.

You best believe that trans activists have been there marching for civil rights, gay rights, women's rights, Stonewall happened in 1969
I don't believe anti-trans sentiment is nearly as strong as you think. The pushback against Deves showed that Australia is largely accepting of trans rights. There are legitimate scientifically valid reasons to question whether professional sporting competition can be fair for females with the inclusion of trans-women, and the FINA decision validates that.

I feel the attitude of 'if you're not 100% for everything that trans groups want, you're against trans rights' pushes a lot of people away.

Interesting to read the greens take on sexuality. I don't have a problem with anything there except point 31.
 

Gralin

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I don't believe anti-trans sentiment is nearly as strong as you think. The pushback against Deves showed that Australia is largely accepting of trans rights. There are legitimate scientifically valid reasons to question whether professional sporting competition can be fair for females with the inclusion of trans-women, and the FINA decision validates that.

I feel the attitude of 'if you're not 100% for everything that trans groups want, you're against trans rights' pushes a lot of people away.

Interesting to read the greens take on sexuality. I don't have a problem with anything there except point 31.
Ok my point which keeps getting either ignored, missed, glossed over or dismissed is that there are much, much bigger issues attached to the sport's one.

The sports issue is being used as an entry point for some truly ducked s**t.

Also the FINA position actually just shows how this pressure gets the people that are anti trans what they want.

Because they just got trans women banned from swimming. Its being dressed up a lot by most news networks but Fox went with segregation which is what we are talking about.

Except the segregated comps don't

So what we are getting isn't a nuanced, balanced, slowly slowly approach.

Its ok we've drummed up enough support to pass laws in America to medically destransition people.

Oh and also as I keep saying, this is already also harming cis women and will continue to do so
 

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Gralin

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Also as I keep saying the facsists and alt right are all over this and leveraging it to the hilt for everything else they can get out of it
 

owen87

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What is it about elite women's sport that you think is different to school and local club sport?

Money? Sponsorship? Career?

Plenty of things.

The lower the level, the more participation is the relevant measure.
 

owen87

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Money and corporate interests being the main ones?

Athletes making a career out of being an athlete are different to local sports participants turning up wanting to play.

I guess that could be related to money and corporate interests if you want?

You run a forum that largely revolves around the elite end of one sport, it's not as though you're unaware of a distinction between elite sport and community sport.
 

Chief

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Athletes making a career out of being an athlete are different to local sports participants turning up wanting to play.

I guess that could be related to money and corporate interests if you want?

You run a forum that largely revolves around the elite end of one sport, it's not as though you're unaware of a distinction between elite sport and community sport.
Yeah, and my view is that it's money and corporate interests.
 

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Chief

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You think sponsors would like women sports to disappear, is that what you’re saying?
They were hardly clamouring for it, were they? They were hardly stumping up extra to give women equal prize money, were they?

I think advertisers would LOVE it if there was one sport played 24 hours a day on 3 different channels, which everyone spent all of their free time watching (and streamed on their phone during work hours if they could), which cost hardly anything to run and made people highly suggestible to buying their crap.

So, if there was a "person sitting in a shed watching an electric fan" sport that had 100% reach and gave them a huge return on their ad spend, they would heap it full of advertising.

They don't care. What's more, they legally have to do the best for the company's investors so actually caring is a dodgy proposition.
 

Chief

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And someone would come up with the idea to make it a life-size cutout of a person so they didn't have pesky salaries to worry about.
 

the_interloper

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They were hardly clamouring for it, were they? They were hardly stumping up extra to give women equal prize money, were they?

I think advertisers would LOVE it if there was one sport played 24 hours a day on 3 different channels, which everyone spent all of their free time watching (and streamed on their phone during work hours if they could), which cost hardly anything to run and made people highly suggestible to buying their crap.

So, if there was a "person sitting in a shed watching an electric fan" sport that had 100% reach and gave them a huge return on their ad spend, they would heap it full of advertising.

They don't care. What's more, they legally have to do the best for the company's investors so actually caring is a dodgy proposition.

Ok well equal prizemoney, well we know that's not realistic, but you think companies like NAB weren't falling over themselves to sponsor AFLW when it became a thing?

Your point is actually fair enough re companies though, they're not sponsoring sports for virtuous purposes, it's to make money. So if suddenly anti abortion becomes a popular cause you could imagine the AFL changing their name to "Abortion Free League" or something like that.

All that aside, yes currently advertisers really want women's sport to remain a thing.

And someone would come up with the idea to make it a life-size cutout of a person so they didn't have pesky salaries to worry about.

I really don't know what the hell you're on about here.

Between the women's football team, cricket team and Ash Barty I wouldn't mind betting that some of the most marketable Australian athletes at the moment are chicks.

Absolutely, and add to that AFLW of course. I feel like there's not as much risk with sponsoring a female athlete, generally they're not known to * up like De Goey and other male athletes.

Ash Barty is interesting, being an indigenous women who is the best in the world, plus who seems to be pretty normal and is unlikely to * up, yeah doesn't get much more marketable. When she retired I wondered what the hell she was doing, she's leaving a hell of a lot of dough on the table.

Though if she's retiring to have kids she's certainly young enough to have time to come back, probably even more marketable as a mother then.
 

Gralin

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Why isn't equal prize money realistic.
People want women's sport to be fair don't they?
Same pay seems fair, same funding and facilities seems fair.
 

owen87

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Why isn't equal prize money realistic.
People want women's sport to be fair don't they?
Same pay seems fair, same funding and facilities seems fair.

Depends where the sport derives funding from.

If it's public money e.g. Olympic sports, not much question it should be on an equal basis, many of our best performing athletes in those sports are female so should be the best funded by public institutions given many of them earn incentive based bonuses.
 

Gralin

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Depends where the sport derives funding from.

If it's public money e.g. Olympic sports, not much question it should be on an equal basis, many of our best performing athletes in those sports are female so should be the best funded by public institutions given many of them earn incentive based bonuses.
Why does it depend though? If you really care about fairness i mean
 

owen87

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Why does it depend though? If you really care about fairness i mean

Because private money is rarely distributed on the basis of fairness.

Within sports we see athletes earning unequal money due to perceived marketability. Sharapova is one of the best examples, she was a good tennis player, but not the best, yet was raking in more sponsorship dollars than any other athlete on the Women's Tour.

Should Sharapova have been forced to forego some of her advertising income by having it all paid in to a pool and being redistributed?
 

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