Society/Culture Feminism - Pt III

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Gralin

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Apr 8, 2010
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Because private money is rarely distributed on the basis of fairness.

Within sports we see athletes earning unequal money due to perceived marketability. Sharapova is one of the best examples, she was a good tennis player, but not the best, yet was raking in more sponsorship dollars than any other athlete on the Women's Tour.

Should Sharapova have been forced to forego some of her advertising income by having it all paid in to a pool and being redistributed?
Ok so you're only concerned about some types of fairness in women's sport then.
 

owen87

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Ok so you're only concerned about some types of fairness in women's sport then.

How do you think private money should be distributed?

You've got examples like the AFL TV rights that are paid to the league as a whole, you've got individual athlete sponsorships, you've got team sponsorships where athletes are employed (e.g. cycling).

You're quick to attack anything people say, I'd be interested to hear how you'd propose the above examples could be managed fairly.
 

Gralin

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How do you think private money should be distributed?
You've got examples like the AFL TV rights that are paid to the league as a whole, you've got individual athlete sponsorships, you've got team sponsorships where athletes are employed (e.g. cycling).

You're quick to attack anything people say, I'd be interested to hear how you'd propose the above examples could be managed fairly.
AFL gets plenty of tax
But again my point was if you're one of the people so concerned about the fairness and integrity of womens sport but that advocacy is limited to keep trans women out its not really about womens sport is it.

Like if you don't care about funding or facilities or coverage or pay or anything else

Because it seems you don't as you love arguing for the status quo any time someone suggests women deserve more money or support or recognition
 

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owen87

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So no, can't provide any proposals of your own?

AFL gets plenty of tax

Public money. Should be equally distributed.

my point was if you're one of the people so concerned about the fairness and integrity of womens sport

Yep I am. I know a number of female athletes, they should be able to voice their thoughts as to what they believe is fair or not fair given they're the one's being impacted by any change or non-change along with transgender athletes. They shouldn't be shouted down by a man called Gralin, should they? Is your opinion more valid than Cate Campbell's for example?

that advocacy is limited to keep trans women out its not really about womens sport is it.

Should probably re-read my posts in the Transgender thread, specifically the most recent one's following the FINA ruling.

Like if you don't care about funding or facilities or coverage or pay or anything else

Public money. Equal distribution. That would largely cover facilities.

I'll say it again, since you seem unclear; For sports that are publicly funded, that funding should be equally distributed.

Because it seems you don't as you love arguing for the status quo any time someone suggests women deserve more money or support or recognition

Incorrect, I often argue for not the status quo, but you ignore all that because you raise your blinkers and just want to attack anyone who doesn't wholly agree with everything you write and make a whole bunch of assumptions.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
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My wife owns a business.

I asked her when we first met if she ever felt it was harder to get to that point where you are a female business owner in an industry with more male representation. She said (paraphrasing) 'no, at school we had it drilled into us that as women, we can achieve absolutely anything'.

I can tell you as a male that at school all I was told was 'If you aren't going to uni why are you even still here?' with the assumption being that I may as well be doing a trade. Probably a generalisation that as a bloke that's my fallback option. My interests in other areas weren't harnessed and I was never filled with 'the sky is the limit' encouragement.

Society has shifted massively.

My company offers full parental leave to expectant mothers or father's. I requested to be the primary carer when my son was born. I was only approved for 2 weeks of leave (also known as the 'Dad leave') despite my request. When I escalated to this to human recourses, the woman told me, and this is no word of a lie, 'you can't really breast feed obviously'.
I was then told I needed a statutory declaration from my wife saying she is going back to work and 'will be the secondary carer of her child'.
No female staff member was ever asked to provide of any this.

My second child is due soon and thankfully there has been no issue with my leave request this time.

I don't know why I wanted to get involved in here to be honest. I don't feel like a debate on any of this. I just believe we've reached the point of equality now where both men and women are being treated positively and negatively to a comparative degree.
Your position is that, because men are being treated more unfairly, that there is equality.
And the number of posters who liked it, show that this is an obvious understanding.


But...

Why don't you feel outrage that women are expected to stay at home?
Why are women expected to breast feed?
Why are women expected to be stay at home parents?
Why are men required to provide more evidence that they will take a 'lesser' role, than a female is?
 

Blackhawk42

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Your position is that, because men are being treated more unfairly, that there is equality.
And the number of posters who liked it, show that this is an obvious understanding.


But...

Why don't you feel outrage that women are expected to stay at home?
Why are women expected to breast feed?
Why are women expected to be stay at home parents?
Why are men required to provide more evidence that they will take a 'lesser' role, than a female is?


Society has always expected that the mother will stay at home. That has (rightfully) been changing lately. Win/win for both sexes.

My wife couldn't breast feed. The people who made her feel bad about this were other women. Where is the inequality in this expectation? I'd argue it's always been a divisive female issue. Where are the men campaigning for 'breast is best'?

The third question and the first question can have the same answer.

Did you mean to say why AREN'T men required to provide more evidence? Like my wife was required to do? Because I asked the following
question to the HR representative: 'why haven't the male partners of my female colleagues been asked to provide evidence stating they too would be the secondary carer to their new newborn children?'
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
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Society has always expected that the mother will stay at home. That has (rightfully) been changing lately. Win/win for both sexes.

My wife couldn't breast feed. The people who made her feel bad about this were other women. Where is the inequality in this expectation?
It doesn't matter if it's coming from a male or a female. It's still sexism, right?
 

Blackhawk42

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Signs were all over the hospitals when we were in there.

They exist. They suck. My question is where are the MEN campaigning for this? Can it be inequality between the sexes if it's an issue confined to one sex?
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
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They exist. They suck. My question is where are the MEN campaigning for this? Can it be inequality between the sexes if it's an issue confined to one sex?
Many men are campaign for it. Your anecdotal experience, and your resistance to look further or take in opposing viewpoints is what causes you to cement your position more and more.

Any time you'd be given something to change your stance, you take it as hostile or aggression.
 

Blackhawk42

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It doesn't matter if it's coming from a male or a female. It's still sexism, right?

Where is that line drawn?

Is it sexism if I get frustrated at my footy mates for getting in fights every game? That's a negative trait usually stemming from wild levels of testosterone and bad decision making.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
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Where is that line drawn?

Is it sexism if I get frustrated at my footy mates for getting in fights every game? That's a negative trait usually stemming from wild levels of testosterone and bad decision making.
You don't believe sexism exists.
 

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Blackhawk42

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Many men are campaign for it. Your anecdotal experience, and your resistance to look further or take in opposing viewpoints is what causes you to cement your position more and more.

Any time you'd be given something to change your stance, you take it as hostile or aggression.

Completely untrue. You've read two of my posts on this topic so far. All I did was give evidence of an opposing viewpoint that I'm sure many didn't realise was a scenario that could happen (ie. A male staff member being turned down on a request to be a stay at home Dad with zero explanation until it was fought).
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
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Completely untrue. You've read two of my posts on this topic so far. All I did was give evidence of an opposing viewpoint that I'm sure many didn't realise was a scenario that could happen (ie. A male staff member being turned down on a request to be a stay at home Dad with zero explanation until it was fought).
You've given specific information, in order to make specific points.

That's enough for me to get a base level understanding of where you're coming from.

Then, on basic questioning, you've responded in a specific way.

You've made it clear where your position is, and how useless it is to attempt to engage with you.
 

Blackhawk42

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You don't believe sexism exists.

Not in a deliberate way.

I feel it exists 50/50 subconsciously between both men and women but you only ever hear about it when males are the perpetrators.

We won't even get into the theory on toxic femininity which I feel is ignored but plays a massive part in young men being over represented in suicides.
 

Blackhawk42

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You've given specific information, in order to make specific points.

That's enough for me to get a base level understanding of where you're coming from.

Then, on basic questioning, you've responded in a specific way.

You've made it clear where your position is, and how useless it is to attempt to engage with you.

I'm convinced this is the only entertainment you get or it's your default setting to believe you've won every disagreement you're a part of.

Because if this back and forth was a 2 hour movie,in your mind you've just wrapped up the third act about 25 minutes in.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
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I'm convinced this is the only entertainment you get or it's your default setting to believe you've won every disagreement you're a part of.

Because if this back and forth was a 2 hour movie,in your mind you've just wrapped up the third act about 25 minutes in.
My position is that as soon as I start actually engaging you, and make you support your position... You'll refer to your first post, and point out that you didn't want to debate this anyway.

You made an out before even attempting to push your actual points. Which tells me that you cannot and will not be able to defend your position without taking off.

Why should I stay, if you're already making escapes?
 

the_interloper

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None of this seems to be relevant... ?

Just sort of trying out some gotcha questions.

Are you talking about CM86 's questions?

Why don't you feel outrage that women are expected to stay at home?
Why are women expected to breast feed?
Why are women expected to be stay at home parents?
Why are men required to provide more evidence that they will take a 'lesser' role, than a female is?
 

the_interloper

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Society has always expected that the mother will stay at home. That has (rightfully) been changing lately. Win/win for both sexes.

My wife couldn't breast feed. The people who made her feel bad about this were other women. Where is the inequality in this expectation? I'd argue it's always been a divisive female issue. Where are the men campaigning for 'breast is best'?

The third question and the first question can have the same answer.

Did you mean to say why AREN'T men required to provide more evidence? Like my wife was required to do? Because I asked the following
question to the HR representative: 'why haven't the male partners of my female colleagues been asked to provide evidence stating they too would be the secondary carer to their new newborn children?'

Every bloke that I know whose missus has had a kid wants whatever makes her life easier, that's for sure. The ones who seem to push "breast is best" are the maternal health nurses, geez some of them can make a new mother feel like s**t.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
Sep 21, 2009
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Are you talking about CM86 's questions?

Why don't you feel outrage that women are expected to stay at home?
Why are women expected to breast feed?
Why are women expected to be stay at home parents?
Why are men required to provide more evidence that they will take a 'lesser' role, than a female is?
Are you serious?
 

Blackhawk42

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Every bloke that I know whose missus has had a kid wants whatever makes her life easier, that's for sure. The ones who seem to push "breast is best" are the maternal health nurses, geez some of them can make a new mother feel like s**t.

We had a planned C-section due to my son being head up.

A few hours after he was born a new midwife came in to ask the standard questions, but added on at the end 'how come you didn't try and turn him?'

Hours after he is born is probably too late to be questioning the decision to have a C-section I would have thought.

Then after her milk never came in we see the 'breast is best' propaganda take over social media.

I don't think I saw any male get involved more than twice, and it was to defend their partner who struggled to feed for a variety of reasons.
 

the_interloper

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Are you serious?

I am, yes.

We had a planned C-section due to my son being head up.

A few hours after he was born a new midwife came in to ask the standard questions, but added on at the end 'how come you didn't try and turn him?'

Hours after he is born is probably too late to be questioning the decision to have a C-section I would have thought.

Then after her milk never came in we see the 'breast is best' propaganda take over social media.

I don't think I saw any male get involved more than twice, and it was to defend their partner who struggled to feed for a variety of reasons.

Yeah having a new baby is hard enough, you just want to make things as easy as possible. There are some practical benefits to breastfeeding (carrying around bottles, heating them up etc is a pain in the arse) but sometimes the milk doesn't come of course like with my missus. Not worth beating yourself up over, as long as they get fed you're good to go.

And I've heard there can be a separation between mothers who have a C section and the ones who "actually went through labour", Jesus Christ don't get me started.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
Sep 21, 2009
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Are you talking about CM86 's questions?

Why don't you feel outrage that women are expected to stay at home?
Why are women expected to breast feed?
Why are women expected to be stay at home parents?
Why are men required to provide more evidence that they will take a 'lesser' role, than a female is?
Which of those are 'gotcha's'? And how?


Of course, you can pretend this is a gotcha as well, and avoided defending your position.

I've made exploratory questions. You've called me out, so I'd like you to attempt to justify it.
 

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