FGM (Female Genital Mutilation)

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Maggie5 said:
None whatsoever, would you like me to change it?
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Probably would be clearer.

I don't think the thread name is all that important, but at the same time, I confess I didn't know what it meant until I opened the thread.
 
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telsor said:
Probably would be clearer.

I don't think the thread name is all that important, but at the same time, I confess I didn't know what it meant until I opened the thread.
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I am using iPad, how do I change title?
Done! Found it under thread tools.
 
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Not withstanding the fact that it's a barbaric practice that has no place in today's world, it serves no medical purpose. If adults of sound mind feel they need to undertake procedures on their body that serve no medical purpose, then that's a matter for them. But to impose that on a child is morally repugnant. You can include circumcision and other tribal or cultural modifications as well.
 
Malifice said:
I dont get the connection people try and ascribe to Islam with this practice. Is it mentioned in the Quran or Hadiths anywhere?
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Several times in the Hadiths:

Abu Hurayrah said: I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and plucking the armpit hairs.” - Bukhari 5891; Muslim 527

Abu al- Malih ibn `Usama's father relates that the Prophet said: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women." - Ahmad Ibn Hanbal 5:75; Abu Dawud, Adab 167.

Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband. - Abu Dawud41:5251

Abu Musa reported: There cropped up a difference of opinion between a group of Muhajirs (Emigrants and a group of Ansar (Helpers) (and the point of dispute was) that the Ansar said: The bath (because of sexual intercourse) becomes obligatory only-when the semen spurts out or ejaculates. But the Muhajirs said: When a man has sexual intercourse (with the woman), a bath becomes obligatory (no matter whether or not there is seminal emission or ejaculation). Abu Musa said: Well, I satisfy you on this (issue). He (Abu Musa, the narrator) said: I got up (and went) to 'A'isha and sought her permission and it was granted, and I said to her: 0 Mother, or Mother of the Faithful, I want to ask you about a matter on which I feel shy. She said: Don't feel shy of asking me about a thing which you can ask your mother, who gave you birth, for I am too your mother. Upon this I said: What makes a bath obligatory for a person? She replied: You have come across one well informed! The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When anyone sits amidst four parts (of the woman) and the circumcised parts touch each other a bath becomes obligatory. - Sahih Muslim3:684
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But I won't make this thread about Islam.

The only culture I've come across that practices FGM and has no ties to Islam at all are the Embera people of Colombia. They cut the clitoris because they think that if they don't, it will grow into a penis.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...ale-genital-mutilation-mystery-myth-misgiving
 
telsor said:
I certainly agree that they're different in outcome, with FGM being far worse, but do you really think that people 2000 years ago (or whenever this arose) appreciated the distinction?
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Male genital mutilation isn't just about circumcision and can be just as bad as or worse than FGM. Penile subincision was common amongst Indigenous Australian tribes. It still occurs today.

(warning - graphic images)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penile_subincision
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
Agree 100% I can't see any reasonable human being disagreeing with you on this.
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*any reasonable human being who is aware that it's a harmful and unnecessary practice.

I know what you're saying, but I'm sure plenty of Sudanese parents who circumcised their daughter are reasonable human beings. I think with examples like the Embera, the practice will disappear as they connect more with the modern world and realise their baby's clit isn't going to turn into a utensil if they don't cut it. More difficult to stop is FGM for religious reasons. It doesn't matter if it's harmful and biologically unnecessary if god wants you to do it.
 
fleabitten said:
*any reasonable human being who is aware that it's a harmful and unnecessary practice.

I know what you're saying, but I'm sure plenty of Sudanese parents who circumcised their daughter are reasonable human beings. I think with examples like the Embera, the practice will disappear as they connect more with the modern world and realise their baby's clit isn't going to turn into a utensil if they don't cut it. More difficult to stop is FGM for religious reasons. It doesn't matter if it's harmful and biologically unnecessary if god wants you to do it.
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True. In hindsight I should have typed 'reasonable person on this forum'. Of course, as you say in Sudan and other sub-Saharan regions female genital mutilation is what is practised. That is what is 'normal' for them and they haven't previously known otherwise until exposure to outside ideals and cultural norms come into play.

Some cultural practises are definitely worth preserving, but those that contravene what we'd like to see as universal human rights?
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
True. In hindsight I should have typed 'reasonable person on this forum'. Of course, as you say in Sudan and other sub-Saharan regions female genital mutilation is what is practised. That is what is 'normal' for them and they haven't previously known otherwise until exposure to outside ideals and cultural norms come into play.

Some cultural practises are definitely worth preserving, but those that contravene what we'd like to see as universal human rights?
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While I definitely agree in this case that the practice should be stopped, your post does raise an important point... At what point does imposing our cultural/ethical values cross the line? I suppose the other related question is what do we feel we can/should do to enforce such views? (especially in other countries)
 

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Maggie5 said:
I think that this deserves its own thread because I am not convinced some posters concern is about the barbaric mutilation of female genitalia or just a another excuse to whack Islam.
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Would you be open to compromised cutting? :drunk: Yes, this is what actual doctors in America have argued for. Legalised, minimized FGM.

 
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Lethality said:
Would you be open to compromised cutting? :drunk: Yes, this is what actual doctors in America have argued for. Legalised, minimized FGM.

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Without watching either, the answer is NO.
 
Scotland said:
800px-FGM_prevalence_UNICEF_2016.svg.png


It's a regional practice, but the region is predominantly Muslim.

I don't care whose practice it is, it has no place in Australia or (IMO) anywhere else.
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The hghlighted regions have significant Christian populations. Saying its 'predominantly muslim' is misleading.

Its not religious in any way, its entirely cultural.

Much like the 'dancing boys' of Afghanistan, its a cultural practice (not an Islamic one), one that should end. Much like male circumcision.
 
VineyIsLORD said:
s**t mate you didn't look very hard. Its literally all over eastern, central and west africa, in Christian communities.
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Only in places where Islam has had a significant presence. That other map is very misleading. First, they only surveyed 29 countries and those are the ones shaded on the map. Saudi Arabia, for example, has an FGM problem but was not included. There are prominent Saudi clerics who insist that it is a religious requirement, but you'd never know that from looking at that map. Other places with a FGM problem are not even pictured on the map, let alone included in the survey.

This map can tell you a lot more about the existence of FGM in a country:

Map_Spread_of_Islam__b_-650x464.jpg


All but a few thousand incidents of FGM occur in the yellow and green areas or by descendants of people from those places who have emigrated. If it was stamped out in those places, it would be a very minor global issue. If it was stamped out on the African continent, it would still be a problem in the Middle East and Asia.
 
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telsor said:
While I definitely agree in this case that the practice should be stopped, your post does raise an important point... At what point does imposing our cultural/ethical values cross the line? I suppose the other related question is what do we feel we can/should do to enforce such views? (especially in other countries)
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Yes very difficult and agree about 'imposing' our values but regarding the second part what we can do is 'educate' via the UN especially if the females are not willing participants.
 
VineyIsLORD said:
The hghlighted regions have significant Christian populations. Saying its 'predominantly muslim' is misleading.

Its not religious in any way, its entirely cultural.

Much like the 'dancing boys' of Afghanistan, its a cultural practice (not an Islamic one), one that should end. Much like male circumcision.
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I think it's primarily a cultural practice rather than a religious one, although there is no denying that there is considerable interaction between those two practices.

From that map, I would suggest that the areas where it is common are primarily Islamic, although that doesn't establish a cause/effect relationship, and determining such would require a lot of research (certainly more that I care to put in, although such research may already exist).
 
FGM is used as a tactic to prevent female infidelity ... take away sexual pleasure therefore the chances of infidelity are lessened (or so the theory goes).

This plays into the Islamic obsession with female chastity and Islam's inherent misogyny.
 
telsor said:
I think it's primarily a cultural practice rather than a religious one, although there is no denying that there is considerable interaction between those two practices.

From that map, I would suggest that the areas where it is common are primarily Islamic, although that doesn't establish a cause/effect relationship, and determining such would require a lot of research (certainly more that I care to put in, although such research may already exist).
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Ertirean and Ethiopia have larger Christian populations than Muslim. It might be a slightly more muslim area, but not by much.

It wasn't muslims that colonised Africa. Well the central and east parts at least.

Like you said, its a cultural practice. You wont find FGM in Singapore, and very rarely in Thailand, Indo, Phillipines or Malaysia. PRactically unheard of in Turkey (but probably changing).
 
Ruck Machine said:
FGM is used as a tactic to prevent female infidelity ... take away sexual pleasure therefore the chances of infidelity are lessened (or so the theory goes).

This plays into the Islamic obsession with female chastity and Islam's inherent misogyny.
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It predates Islam and Christianity by hundreds of years.
 
fleabitten said:
Only in places where Islam has had a significant presence. That other map is very misleading. First, they only surveyed 29 countries and those are the ones shaded on the map. Saudi Arabia, for example, has an FGM problem but was not included. There are prominent Saudi clerics who insist that it is a religious requirement, but you'd never know that from looking at that map. Other places with a FGM problem are not even pictured on the map, let alone included in the survey.

This map can tell you a lot more about the existence of FGM in a country:

Map_Spread_of_Islam__b_-650x464.jpg


All but a few thousand incidents of FGM occur in the yellow and green areas or by descendants of people from those places who have emigrated. If it was stamped out in those places, it would be a very minor global issue. If it was stamped out on the African continent, it would still be a problem in the Middle East and Asia.
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Significant populations covered under your 'Sunni Islam' map are actually Christian, and practice FGM. Some of the worst offenders like Eritrea and Ethiopia appear as 'Sunni muslim' on your map and have majority Christian populations.

That's the point I was making.
 
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