Financial Fair Play discussion

moomba

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What court case? UEFA can hand down any decision they like. Clubs are unable to take a governing body to court.

The 2 guilty clubs can contest their penalty in the CAS. Quite a few have tried that with AC Milan getting their season ban reduced to a financial penalty. The rest failed. Thankfully footballing decisions aren't able to be challenged in courts by those who have no respect for the rules and those that don't care about wasting tens of millions of pounds on frivilous court action

Something tells me that neither PSG or City will garner much sympathy from a CAS judge with their recent conduct either but they are welcome to try.

We will know more after the season concludes.
Everything can go to court.

But I suspect a CAS judge won't be impressed with unverified evidence collected without context by a third party being used in a case. Particularly when the third party has a big question mark on the information they produce.

I'm not sure there is any evidence from Der Spiegel that proves a rule has been broken, but if there is I'm pretty sure UEFA won't be relying on it if it goes to CAS or beyond.

What they could do is use the Der Spiegel info as the basis of further questioning. But they'll need evidence from elsewhere I suspect.
 
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Zidane98

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Everything can go to court.

But I suspect a CAS judge won't be impressed with unverified evidence collected without context by a third party being used in a case. Particularly when the third party has a big question mark on the information they produce.

I'm not sure there is any evidence from Der Spiegel that proves a rule has been broken, but if there is I'm pretty sure UEFA won't be relying on it if it goes to CAS or beyond.

What they could do is use the Der Spiegel info as the basis of further questioning. But they'll need evidence from elsewhere I suspect.

Yes, the only avenue of appeal for a club against an association is via the CAS.

UEFA are allowed to hand out what penalty they like though despite your claims to the contrary. CAS decide on whether an appeal should be heard only after all avenues through the UEFA appeals body have been exhausted. Good luck finding sympathy from themtheml or even looking at overturning a UEFA imposed penalty (happens rarely).

I do expect that his highness would fully assist in any investigation and produce all financial information for his holding company ADUG as he has been laundering money through your "sponsors" to the club.
One would have to interpret in failure to cooperate as admission of guilt.
 

moomba

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Yes, the only avenue of appeal for a club against an association is via the CAS.

UEFA are allowed to hand out what penalty they like though despite your claims to the contrary. CAS decide on whether an appeal should be heard only after all avenues through the UEFA appeals body have been exhausted. Good luck finding sympathy from themtheml or even looking at overturning a UEFA imposed penalty (happens rarely).

I do expect that his highness would fully assist in any investigation and produce all financial information for his holding company ADUG as he has been laundering money through your "sponsors" to the club.
One would have to interpret in failure to cooperate as admission of guilt.
CAS would be the first avenue, it's not the only avenue. But CAS will follow the same rules of law as everyone else.

Unsourced, unverified newspaper articles don't tend to carry a great deal of weight in courts. So UEFA won't be silly enough to hang their hopes on that.

We'll provide the information we're obliged to provide I'm sure. We will have already done so back in 2014.
 

Zidane98

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CAS would be the first avenue, it's not the only avenue. But CAS will follow the same rules of law as everyone else.

Unsourced, unverified newspaper articles don't tend to carry a great deal of weight in courts. So UEFA won't be silly enough to hang their hopes on that.

We'll provide the information we're obliged to provide I'm sure. We will have already done so back in 2014.
UEFA are able to use any sources they like. I imagine their investigation of City and/or PSG will focus on whether the owners of both clubs are guilty of injecting capital by transferring money to sponsors. That's a serious violation of FFP and unless it was disclosed any penalty will surely be severe.

To me having read much of the documentation from football leaks that much is pretty much beyond doubt. And I don't hear any denials from either City or PSG either which speaks volumes.

But I guess you'll get those who will defend cheating until they are light blue in the face.
 

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or hold off until it is actually proven, instead of just what has been said by a newspaper where it has just been discovered they've been making up stories.
 

moomba

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UEFA are able to use any sources they like. I imagine their investigation of City and/or PSG will focus on whether the owners of both clubs are guilty of injecting capital by transferring money to sponsors. That's a serious violation of FFP and unless it was disclosed any penalty will surely be severe.

To me having read much of the documentation from football leaks that much is pretty much beyond doubt. And I don't hear any denials from either City or PSG either which speaks volumes.

But I guess you'll get those who will defend cheating until they are light blue in the face.
And those that will make a decision without knowing the facts.

Saying that rules of law should be followed is not defending a club. If UEFA can prove we've done something wrong, and do it by providing actual evidence, not hearsay then we won't have much luck in the courts (unless we challenge FFP itself).
 

Zidane98

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And those that will make a decision without knowing the facts.

Saying that rules of law should be followed is not defending a club. If UEFA can prove we've done something wrong, and do it by providing actual evidence, not hearsay then we won't have much luck in the courts (unless we challenge FFP itself).
UEFA is not a court of law, not sure what is so difficult to understand about that. They are not required to follow the guidelines of court when deciding on penalties. And so it should be that way, otherwise clubs would be taking them to court all the time and they'd never be able to penalise cheating like we have seen from City / PSG.

For those rare occasions when a club still isn't satisfied with an appeal outcome there is the CAS.
 

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or hold off until it is actually proven, instead of just what has been said by a newspaper where it has just been discovered they've been making up stories.
You suggesting the documents are fake? Neither club is denying that their owners have been funding sponsorship deals through the back door. No denials from both owners. It's been happening.
 

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You suggesting the documents are fake? Neither club is denying that their owners have been funding sponsorship deals through the back door. No denials from both owners. It's been happening.
well after what has come out it can't be ruled out until proven otherwise. there has to now be questions about der spiegel's credibility. but if you have a reporter who is willing to make up stories concerning war and then to profit from it, it's not a stretch to believe it's happening in other departments.
 

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well after what has come out it can't be ruled out until proven otherwise. there has to now be questions about der spiegel's credibility. but if you have a reporter who is willing to make up stories concerning war and then to profit from it, it's not a stretch to believe it's happening in other departments.
Football Leaks were the source of the documents. Not Der Spiegel. They just publicised it. And the actions of one individual don't reflect an entire organisation plus I believe Der Spiegel have taken legal action against the reporter who is no longer an employee.
 

Magma

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Football Leaks were the source of the documents. Not Der Spiegel. They just publicised it. And the actions of one individual don't reflect an entire organisation plus I believe Der Spiegel have taken legal action against the reporter who is no longer an employee.
so it's okay to accept evidence without anyone else seeing it from a publication that is currently involved in making up stories?

i know you're so desperate to see us get punished but i also dont see anything wrong with questioning the lack of transparency about it. if we get punished for doing something wrong, okay then, sure. but what happens if the investigation comes back as all clear? you can't be saying 'it's been happening' when no one else has actually got the documents, just verbiage from a newspaper.
 

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Zidane98

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so it's okay to accept evidence without anyone else seeing it from a publication that is currently involved in making up stories?

i know you're so desperate to see us get punished but i also dont see anything wrong with questioning the lack of transparency about it. if we get punished for doing something wrong, okay then, sure. but what happens if the investigation comes back as all clear? you can't be saying 'it's been happening' when no one else has actually got the documents, just verbiage from a newspaper.
I know it's difficult for you to understand but Der Spiegel are not the source of the documents that embarrassed both City and PSG.

Football Leaks is the source. And it certainly reeks of desperation to try and pin the actions of one person who isn't even employed by Der Spiegel as representative of the entire organisation.

What happens if the investigation comes back as not all clear? All I hear is that in that case it will be taken to court, it's unfair blah blah blah blah.

I am happy to accept UEFA's decision on this one although some aren't prepared to by the looks of it.
 

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I know it's difficult for you to understand but Der Spiegel are not the source of the documents that embarrassed both City and PSG.

Football Leaks is the source. And it certainly reeks of desperation to try and pin the actions of one person who isn't even employed by Der Spiegel as representative of the entire organisation.

What happens if the investigation comes back as not all clear? All I hear is that in that case it will be taken to court, it's unfair blah blah blah blah.

I am happy to accept UEFA's decision on this one although some aren't prepared to by the looks of it.
i understand that football leaks is the source of the documents. which no one else has seen. and der spiegel have exclusivity to. why havent other news publications been able to see them to verify the accuracy? why take it at face value with no proof? what, newspaper publications never lie or embellish the story? all i want to see is proof that what der spiegel have written is accurate. i dont think that's unreasonable.

the reporter was an employee of der spiegel since 2017, and not long after other reporters expressed concerns about him and der spiegel covered it up/found nothing. they were happy to publish articles written by him since 2011. but questions shouldn't be asked of other departments? come off it.
 

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i understand that football leaks is the source of the documents. which no one else has seen. and der spiegel have exclusivity to. why havent other news publications been able to see them to verify the accuracy? why take it at face value with no proof? what, newspaper publications never lie or embellish the story? all i want to see is proof that what der spiegel have written is accurate. i dont think that's unreasonable.

the reporter was an employee of der spiegel since 2017, and not long after other reporters expressed concerns about him and der spiegel covered it up/found nothing. they were happy to publish articles written by him since 2011. but questions shouldn't be asked of other departments? come off it.
You'd have a point if the reporter was involved in making up the leaked documents.

Neither club are denying the documents though so for me there's no reason to doubt them. And it is quite a stretch to accuse football leaks over falsifying the whole thing.
 

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You'd have a point if the reporter was involved in making up the leaked documents.

Neither club are denying the documents though so for me there's no reason to doubt them. And it is quite a stretch to accuse football leaks over falsifying the whole thing.
if der spiegel is willing to cover up one reporter, its not far fetched that there could be others.

clubs would be mad to deny stuff like emails. and i didnt accuse football leaks of falsifying anything.
 

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if der spiegel is willing to cover up one reporter, its not far fetched that there could be others.

clubs would be mad to deny stuff like emails. and i didnt accuse football leaks of falsifying anything.
Two totally unrelated things because the story is from football leaks. And they weren't willing to cover them up, legal action was taken against them and they are no longer employed.

If you want to try and attack someone's credibility it has to be football leaks. Either argue why the documents are/could be false or don't argue at all.
 

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Two totally unrelated things because the story is from football leaks. And they weren't willing to cover them up, legal action was taken against them and they are no longer employed.

If you want to try and attack someone's credibility it has to be football leaks. Either argue why the documents are/could be false or don't argue at all.
it was reportedly ignored when two people from a town he had written about in 2016 contacted der spiegel about his lies, highlighting 11 of them.

i dont understand what the problem is with questioning the legitimacy of stuff we haven't seen. imagine just taking stuff put out by the sun or the daily mail on face value.
 

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it was reportedly ignored when two people from a town he had written about in 2016 contacted der spiegel about his lies, highlighting 11 of them.

i dont understand what the problem is with questioning the legitimacy of stuff we haven't seen. imagine just taking stuff put out by the sun or the daily mail on face value.
I didn't realise that the scum or daily mail reported on this. Once again this is football leaks that sourced the documents, not Der Spiegel. Unless you are prepared to argue that Football Leaks falsified the documents or Der Spiegel are lying about getting the documents from Football Leaks. Do you claim either of those two things happened?
 

moomba

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I didn't realise that the scum or daily mail reported on this. Once again this is football leaks that sourced the documents, not Der Spiegel. Unless you are prepared to argue that Football Leaks falsified the documents or Der Spiegel are lying about getting the documents from Football Leaks. Do you claim either of those two things happened?
UEFA can't use Football Leaks as a source as they haven't seen the info, don't know where it came from or how it was acquired. They don't know if amendments or omissions we're made.

They can use Der Spiegel as a source but they will have to demonstrate that they are a reliable source that conducts due diligence and fact checking on the stories it published.

I doubt they'd risk either approach.

What they'll do instead is check the Der Spiegel info against the facts they already know. They'll use that to ask pointed questions if there are any discrepancies. And if there is a case to be made, that'll be what they use.

Personally I have my doubts there is a case to be made. But time will tell on that.
 

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I didn't realise that the scum or daily mail reported on this. Once again this is football leaks that sourced the documents, not Der Spiegel. Unless you are prepared to argue that Football Leaks falsified the documents or Der Spiegel are lying about getting the documents from Football Leaks. Do you claim either of those two things happened?
i dont know if you dont or won't understand my point, so i can't be bothered going round in circles anymore.
 

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UEFA can't use Football Leaks as a source as they haven't seen the info, don't know where it came from or how it was acquired. They don't know if amendments or omissions we're made.

They can use Der Spiegel as a source but they will have to demonstrate that they are a reliable source that conducts due diligence and fact checking on the stories it published.

I doubt they'd risk either approach.

What they'll do instead is check the Der Spiegel info against the facts they already know. They'll use that to ask pointed questions if there are any discrepancies. And if there is a case to be made, that'll be what they use.

Personally I have my doubts there is a case to be made. But time will tell on that.
It depends on the funding of sponsorship deals by owners of clubs being claimed as legitimate commercial income. To me the information released shows that to be the case. An invesrigation will delve further into this and wont just rely on a few news articles. If it turns out it is the case then serious penalties need to apply because the whole basis of FFP is clubs operating within their means. Whether you agree with it or not other clubs had to meet the same obligations and other clubs have been penalised.

You can't defend that sort of behaviour, it is unashamedly arrogant total disregard of FFP rules and if proven to be the case both City & PSG must be banned for next season if UEFA are to maintain any credibility.
 

moomba

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It depends on the funding of sponsorship deals by owners of clubs being claimed as legitimate commercial income. To me the information released shows that to be the case. An invesrigation will delve further into this and wont just rely on a few news articles. If it turns out it is the case then serious penalties need to apply because the whole basis of FFP is clubs operating within their means. Whether you agree with it or not other clubs had to meet the same obligations and other clubs have been penalised.
We don't have enough information to tell if the funding of sponsorships was within the rules or not. We don't know who or what entities funded the sponsorships. We don't know what was declared to UEFA initially and we don't know what UEFA seen as a fair market value is. Without this knowledge we don't know if there is an issue or not.

You can't defend that sort of behaviour, it is unashamedly arrogant total disregard of FFP rules and if proven to be the case both City & PSG must be banned for next season if UEFA are to maintain any credibility.
I'll wait and see if we've done something wrong before I'll even think about defending "this sort of behaviour".

As I've said before I'd be happy if there is enough evidence to see us charged. I'd like to see all of the facts come out into the open. And if/when that happens we get a ban, so be it.
 
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